Remove Dodge

[AaronAaron]

Why do players get punished for hitting shots? Why are people allowed to be invincible for 2 seconds just by pressing a button? Why does it dodge BLOBS?

 

[Tisio]

lol why so many people complain about the dodge and so little amount asks to remove disruptor,disruptor is even more OP than dodge actually.Especially now when you can shoot dodger in a head from any sniper weapon.If dodge will be removed - there will be no decent counter for a disruptor.

 

[A$APRocky]

If dodge will be removed - there will be no decent counter for a disruptor.

Arc dual pistols would like to have a word with you

Plus most people aren't talking about removing dodge as a whole they're suggesting changes that keep dodge as a option to use against snipers but remove the more desk smashing parts of dodge.

 

[Fang]

an arc on at least my level doesn't even have to peak to hit mr.corner camp ruptor

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

Remove it and you're just gonna crank up the corner camping with firepower 3 sbd

Very little insight.

What would you have us do instead, stand in the middle of a hallway waiting to be shot?
The Super Battle Droid is a slow and defensive unit with a battery that must remain charged. Taking cover is and always will be a viable strategy.

Our blasters are effective at all ranges, and the element of surprise is not a necessity. The reason a SBD waits around a corner is to protect himself, and remove the chance of you escaping the hallway or taking cover.
Furthermore, if you don't learn that a SBD has set up a defensive position at 'X' choke point after the first 'surprise attack', your death is no one's fault but your own.

Finally, there are almost always alternate routes to the objective, that allow you to bypass foolish droids that do not rotate their positioning, or stray too far from the objective.

 

[A$APRocky]

Very little insight.

What would you have us do instead, stand in the middle of a hallway waiting to be shot?
The Super Battle Droid is a slow and defensive unit with a battery that must remain charged. Taking cover is and always will be a viable strategy.

Our blasters are effective at all ranges, and the element of surprise is not a necessity. The reason a SBD waits around a corner is to protect himself, and remove the chance of you escaping the hallway or taking cover.
Furthermore, if you don't learn that a SBD has set up a defensive position at 'X' choke point after the first 'surprise attack', your death is no one's fault but your own.

Finally, there are almost always alternate routes to the objective, that allow you to bypass foolish droids that do not rotate their positioning, or stray too far from the objective.

First off I don't think Kodar was necessarily taking a shot at SBD I think he was just pointing out the obvious and saying it exactly how it is. Secondly your argument against it comes down to "just don't fight it". And boy am I getting some dejavu. You can use that argument for so many things in the game SBD, Deka, Lightning 3 Sith, etc. It however does not change the fact that Imps are on defense for 95% of the maps in MB2 giving imps the advantage most of the time and making rebs have to push all the time. Having rebs push against stuff like westars and FP 3 SBD is insanely hard without something helping them. Even with that though I am personally also on the side of that dodge is insanely broken and need some kind of massive change to it.

I also agree with your argument that SBD has to corner camp in that situation but that doesn't just automatically make it okay for game balance.

 

[Kodar]

Very little insight.

What would you have us do instead, stand in the middle of a hallway waiting to be shot?
The Super Battle Droid is a slow and defensive unit with a battery that must remain charged. Taking cover is and always will be a viable strategy.

Our blasters are effective at all ranges, and the element of surprise is not a necessity. The reason a SBD waits around a corner is to protect himself, and remove the chance of you escaping the hallway or taking cover.
Furthermore, if you don't learn that a SBD has set up a defensive position at 'X' choke point after the first 'surprise attack', your death is no one's fault but your own.

Finally, there are almost always alternate routes to the objective, that allow you to bypass foolish droids that do not rotate their positioning, or stray too far from the objective.

1) I play SBD more than enough to fully realize they excel in corridors etc. Holding choke points is smart, but giving the attackers little to nothing in terms of tools to deal with it does nothing to address my primary point.
2) Yes, there are alternate routes, and people who have even basic map knowledge know the alternatives, thus those very paths are also camped, which is also smart. Again, does nothing to address my primary point. Feel free to list at least 10 solid maps with bare minimum of 3 direct paths straight to the objective.

Again, as I stated, dodge is retarded currently. I'm mainly shitting on the folk who think ECKS DEE REMOVE DODGE REEEEEE will somehow just automagically solve every problem under the sun. They're probably the same people who also play defense 24/7 and never have to push a corner camping westar boi who insta deletes them with little to no risk.

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

your argument against it comes down to "just don't fight it".

1) If you two have been here any amount of time, you should know the standard fanfare of 'Blobs, rockets, stun grenades, red sabres & bouncing arc pistols. You should know by now that almost anything can theoretically 'counter' a Super Battle Droid who is sitting around a corner. I'm not going to say that any of this would be effective against myself, but I will tell you what you already know.

I also agree with your argument that SBD has to corner camp in that situation but that doesn't just automatically make it okay for game balance.

2) To 'fix' SBD corner camping is to entirely rework or remove the SBD itself. You can not remove a Super Battle Droid from cover or defensive positioning without putting said droid at an overwhelming disadvantage. I will detail some of the reasons below.


a) Shooting, Taking damage or sprinting lowers battery & firerate/damage output. To recover you must enter a state where you can not protect yourself. Without cover, this is not practical, or largely possible.

b) Our movement is slow and limited. Pushing forward involves moving from cover to cover, a SBD on the offense is easily caught inbetween covers, or in in-adequate cover, and easily dispatched. We can not dodge proj shots, quickly rush away from grenades, or jump over obstacles.

c) Considering lack of movement, the majority of SBDs are nigh helpless in CQC situations against jedi or wookiees. Therefore it is important to create distance, not move toward them.


As far as game balance goes, the SBD is a class with extreme limitations, the need for constant battery management, and careful positioning. The amount of 'counters' are in abundance, 'blobs, rockets, stun nades, red sabres, bouncing arc pistols, wookiees, proj rifle & cover, and more.'

1) I play SBD more than enough to fully realize they excel in corridors etc. Holding choke points is smart, but giving the attackers little to nothing in terms of tools to deal with it does nothing to address my primary point.

3) I'm not going to argue credentials here, that would be unfair to you.
To repeat what i said above, 'the amount of 'counters' are in abundance, 'blobs, rockets, stun nades, red sabres, bouncing arc pistols, wookiees, proj rifle & cover, and more'.

2) Yes, there are alternate routes, and people who have even basic map knowledge know the alternatives, thus those very paths are also camped, which is also smart. Again, does nothing to address my primary point. Feel free to list at least 10 solid maps with bare minimum of 3 direct paths straight to the objective.

Pointless. You are going to encounter enemies who make use of cover at every path. If you don't want to fight the SBD, pick one of the other routes.

 

[Fang]

4 Years of this roleplay, keep it up bud

 

[Kodar]

1) If you two have been here any amount of time, you should know the standard fanfare of 'Blobs, rockets, stun grenades, red sabres & bouncing arc pistols. You should know by now that almost anything can theoretically 'counter' a Super Battle Droid who is sitting around a corner. I'm not going to say that any of this would be effective against myself, but I will tell you what you already know.


2) To 'fix' SBD corner camping is to entirely rework or remove the SBD itself. You can not remove a Super Battle Droid from cover or defensive positioning without being at an extreme disadvantage. I will detail some of the reasons below.
a) Shooting, Taking damage or sprinting lowers battery & firerate/damage output. To recover you must enter a state where you can not protect yourself. Without cover, this is not practical, or largely possible.
b) Our movement is slow and limited. Pushing forward involves moving from cover to cover, a SBD on the offense is easily caught inbetween covers, or in in-adequate cover, and easily dispatched. We can not dodge proj shots, quickly rush away from grenades, or jump over obstacles.
c) Considering lack of movement, the majority of SBDs are nigh helpless in CQC situations against jedi or wookiees. Therefore it is important to create distance, not move toward them.

As far as game balance goes, the SBD is a class with extreme limitations, the need for constant battery management, and careful positioning. The amount of 'counters' are in abundance, 'blobs, rockets, stun nades, red sabres, bouncing arc pistols, wookiees, proj rifle & cover, and more.'



3) I'm not going to argue credentials here, that would be unfair to you.
To repeat what i said above, 'the amount of 'counters' are in abundance, 'blobs, rockets, stun nades, red sabres, bouncing arc pistols, wookiees, proj rifle & cover, and more'.




Pointless. You are going to encounter enemies who make use of cover at every path. If you don't want to fight the SBD, pick one of the other routes.

Please tell me you're joking. If you're being serious, I will humor just for the sake of it.
Firstly, the primary point is not SBD. SBD is but a potential factor, not even the primary one, as they actually don't have a charge shot function that allows for easy corner peaking with little to no risk. They're simply very strong in corridors. No one, and I mean literally no one, is advocating for you to play super aggressive SBD in this entire thread, so why do you keep talking about it? You're making up an argument that no one is making.

Secondly, the primary point since it apparently missed you despite being repeated multiple times is the abundance of extremely strong despite minimum risk corner camping tools. Snipers depending on how they're used, charge shots (especially westars), burst weapons (see DLT & A280), and an honorable mention to competent deka players. SBD has risk, but minimizes it due to its strengths, but it still takes risks as it can't peek and instantly tap a 100/100 ARC with pistols like a mando. It would have to hit multiple shots to do so.
The counters to said corner camping are NOT in abundance, regardless of how many times you say it.
Blobs: Conc blobs do not counter as you have to just prefire to attempt to counter a corner camper, otherwise you're not hitting shit anyway. By the time you react, they're in cover.
Ion blobs CAN work, but depend on you actually knowing the person is there, charging the shot, and successfully firing it BEFORE getting hit.
Rockets L0L. Support sith/jedi immediately nullifies this in remotely competent play.
Stun nades: See sith.
Red sabers: This is primarily a wook counter, not a counter for anything else. Why you would mention it is entirely beyond me as SBDs are countered by swingblocking right now, not by a particular style.
Bouncing arc pistols are strong, but extremely map dependent. Some maps simply forbid their usage such as echobase due to architecture.
Wookiees have to push corridors without getting deleted as non-enraged wooks are quite fragile despite the high hp due to slow movement, easy to hit hitbox, and headshot multipliers. SBDs shit on wooks better than virtually any other gunner class in fact due to firepower 3.
Proj rifle does not counter anyone who simply doesn't peek, and corner camping peeking with westars as an example makes it to where a proj has virtually no chance of possibly countering in any reasonable time. Depends entirely on prefire.

From what I've gathered everything you're stating assumes a 1v1 against a SBD, which is an entirely pointless argument.

& more. Please, enlighten us oh wise one.

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

1)

Spoiler

Remove it and you're just gonna crank up the corner camping with firepower 3 sbd

No one, and I mean literally no one, is advocating for you to play super aggressive SBD in this entire thread

You are implying that SBD units making use of cover is a bad thing, and that there is another effective way to use the SBD that does not heavily involve using cover. This is of course, blatantly false- cover is necessary for a SBD to survive, and as a result I have responded to it.

2)

Spoiler

So why do you keep talking about it?

For the same reason you are.

3)

Spoiler

Secondly, the primary point since it apparently missed you despite being repeated multiple times is the abundance of extremely strong despite minimum risk corner camping tools. Snipers depending on how they're used, charge shots (especially westars), burst weapons (see DLT & A280),

I am not an expert on any class besides the SBD. I am uninterested in your comments on those matters.

4)

Spoiler

The counters to said corner camping are NOT in abundance, regardless of how many times you say it.
Blobs: Conc blobs do not counter as you have to just prefire to attempt to counter a corner camper, otherwise you're not hitting shit anyway. By the time you react, they're in cover.
Ion blobs CAN work, but depend on you actually knowing the person is there, charging the shot, and successfully firing it BEFORE getting hit.

Blobs temporarily disable a SBD unit from firing in entirety, and slow it's pace to a crawl. If I recall correctly, they can indeed be used mid-fight.
Furthermore, the SBD you mentioned was a 'corner camper'. Charging up your blob as you approach the corner is only the correct course of action to take, if you have chosen to use blobs.

Rockets L0L. Support sith/jedi immediately nullifies this in remotely competent play.

Typically, a SBD creates a choke point at a less used pathway, somewhere that is not usually the main hall, due to the main corridor's wide opening and lack of cover. If you know that the SBD is behind a corner in a hallway, firing a surprise rocket at said corner beforehand is an option that is availiable. If the SBD has teamed up with a sith, then it becomes a team effort. Do not expect to best a team of two on your own, bring a jedi who could similarly push the rocket back toward them. This is of course, largely only applicable if you have chosen to use Rockets.

Stun nades: See sith.

The issue was with SBDs camping corners. If they have teamed up with a sith, you will also need to similarly work with your team.

Red sabers: This is primarily a wook counter, not a counter for anything else. Why you would mention it is entirely beyond me as SBDs are countered by swingblocking right now, not by a particular style.

I was going over the typical responses, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this one- perhaps they have removed the specialized saber type that is similarly effective against Super Battle Droids. I only use the SBD, and am unable to combat your claims that such a style no longer exists.

Bouncing arc pistols are strong, but extremely map dependent. Some maps simply forbid their usage such as echobase due to architecture.

Considering that your issue was corner-camping, and not door-camping, this is a non-issue. Bouncing bullets are largely effective when combating an opponent who is dependent on utilizing cover.

Wookiees have to push corridors without getting deleted as non-enraged wooks are quite fragile despite the high hp due to slow movement, easy to hit hitbox, and headshot multipliers. SBDs shit on wooks better than virtually any other gunner class in fact due to firepower 3.

A long hallway is oftentimes a requirement to dispatch a rage wookie. If they are within medium to close range, a Super Battle Droid must begin back-peddling immediately if they hope to survive. If said wookiee successfully makes contact with the Super Battle Droid, chances of survival drop to an extreme low. Their damage output will immediately begin to drain the unit's battery, preventing them from retaliating effectively. This is indeed a counter, and it is most effective on maps without long empty hallways. (Unless you team up with any class that stuns the SBD.)

Proj rifle does not counter anyone who simply doesn't peek, and corner camping peeking with westars as an example makes it to where a proj has virtually no chance of possibly countering in any reasonable time. Depends entirely on prefire.

A SBD, no matter how skilled, can not trade shots with a proj rifle user who knows how to aim, and knows that he is behind a corner. This creates a problem for SBD units who hold a choke point, because if the proj user knows that they are there- they control the hallway. This allows for wookiees, jedi, and other classes to advance down the hallway, creating an overwhelmingly disadvantageous situation for the SBD. This match-up creates a stalemate if no other combatants are around to tip the scales.

5)

Spoiler

From what I've gathered everything you're stating assumes a 1v1 against a SBD, which is an entirely pointless argument.

The issue at hand was a 'corner-camping' SBD, not a unified team who compensates for the Super Battle Droid's weaknesses, and therefore most likely a Super battle droid who went to the main fight, and is therefore likely playing offensively (to their disadvantage).
Countering a thoughtful team-effort would require for you to have a similarly competent team of your own. However, in my experience, most combatants are more focused on themselves than protecting the Super Battle Droid.

Please, enlighten us oh wise one.

I would hardly consider this an enlightening, everyone already knows that a Super Battle Droid has a diverse amount of 'counters', and is dependent on cover. However, if you are the exception, you may consider yourself-
Enlightened.

 

[Kodar]

I could make an extensive reply, but the core issue is you made some weird assumption that this thread is about SBDs primarily. That is not the case as has been stated like 10 times. It's about dodge and corner camping issues, SBDs get mentioned as a sidenote because fp3 is really strong in corridors, but they're not the primary detail.

In other words, don't make stupid assumptions.

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

I could make an extensive reply, but the core issue is you made some weird assumption that this thread is about SBDs primarily. That is not the case as has been stated like 10 times. It's about dodge and corner camping issues, SBDs get mentioned as a sidenote because fp3 is really strong in corridors, but they're not the primary detail.

In other words, don't make stupid assumptions.

In other words, you now realize that Super Battle Droids will always be 'corner-campers', due to the nature of their class and the importance cover plays. Therefore, changing dodge will neither increase, nor decrease the amount of Super Battle Droids taking cover.

Remove it and you're just gonna crank up the corner camping with charge shots, burst weapons, snipers, firepower 3 sbd, and so on straight to 11

You're welcome.

 

[Kodar]

In other words, you now realize that Super Battle Droids will always be 'corner-campers', due to the nature of their class and the importance cover plays. Therefore, changing dodge will neither increase, nor decrease the amount of Super Battle Droids taking cover.



You're welcome.

You yet again leave out the entire rest of the sentence that said: Remove it and you're just gonna crank up the corner camping with charge shots, burst weapons, snipers, firepower 3 sbd, and so on straight to 11.
Stop trying to cherry pick to get anal about an argument.

Also your comment about arc bouncy pistols told me everything anyway lol

 

[Goliath-A.I.]

Spoiler

This is becoming too lengthy to justify, so this will be my last response. If you want to continue this discussion, you are free to PM me.

You yet again leave out the entire rest of the sentence that said: Remove it and you're just gonna crank up the corner camping with charge shots, burst weapons, snipers, firepower 3 sbd, and so on straight to 11.
Stop trying to cherry pick to get anal about an argument.

If you'd like, I can edit the quote to those exact words, it makes no difference to me. It was only edited because I respect other's time, and I was only focused on your comment about the 'SBD corner-campers increasing'. Which is just absurd, it's like you've never met a SBD. Cover is always going to be essential, and changing dodge isn't going to effect that.

Also your comment about arc bouncy pistols told me everything anyway lol

If you are referring to door-camping vs corner-camping, there is indeed a difference. Chiefly being that a door can cover against bounce-shots, and force a target into range.

 

[zane]

old dodge or bust

 

[Victin Halcyon]

I'd be open to a revert to old dodge (though who knows if everyone's on the same page about what 'old dodge' means). I can appreciate that dodge is a solution to more problems than simply snipers (i.e. the above-mentioned corner-camping tools).

Part of the problem here too is that other elements of the game have changed around dodge even as dodge itself has been changed over the years.

As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, one pet theory I have on this is that the 15% bolt speed increase on most weapons from a couple years back had a massive effect on certain guns that is further exacerbated when combined with an ability like dodge in its current iteration--and I'm primarily thinking of the a280/DLT here, though it's also pronounced with the hero/BH's pistol 3.

I also remember reading that the way armour damage was calculated was adjusted a couple of times. The point being that trying to get dodge back to a place where it feels right again is trying to hit something of a moving target, as it's not the only changed variable at play when it comes to gunner vs. gunner combat.

 

[Hessu]

I'd be open to a revert to old dodge (though who knows if everyone's on the same page about what 'old dodge' means). I can appreciate that dodge is a solution to more problems than simply snipers (i.e. the above-mentioned corner-camping tools).

Part of the problem here too is that other elements of the game have changed around dodge even as dodge itself has been changed over the years.

As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, one pet theory I have on this is that the 15% bolt speed increase on most weapons from a couple years back had a massive effect on certain guns that is further exacerbated when combined with an ability like dodge in its current iteration--and I'm primarily thinking of the a280/DLT here, though it's also pronounced with the hero/BH's pistol 3.

I also remember reading that the way armour damage was calculated was adjusted a couple of times. The point being that trying to get dodge back to a place where it feels right again is trying to hit something of a moving target, as it's not the only changed variable at play when it comes to gunner vs. gunner combat.

Could you explain old dodge to those who don't know it (including me)

 

[Gargos]

Could you explain old dodge to those who don't know it (including me)

Old dodge:
It was a passive talent and was active all the time. You couldnt see your dodge points. You could dodge from behind. You could dodge while in scope mode. These features applied to all levels.

Costs:
Lvl1 five points, lvl2 ten points and lvl3 Fifteen points. (30 points in total for lvl3 so quite costly)

Lvl1 workd only when standing. Lvl2 workd walking crouch and standing. Lvl3 workd even while running. Lvl3 also had the most dodge points as far as I can remember. The only things the current dodge is better at than old dodge is that the new dodge duration in a fight lasts longer than the old dodge (which means if you got in couple shots the dodge depleted semi quick in a fire fight. A well timed new dodge lasts longer than that) and the point cost.

 

[Victin Halcyon]

Old dodge:
It was a passive talent and was active all the time. You couldnt see your dodge points. You could dodge from behind. You could dodge while in scope mode. These features applied to all levels.

Costs:
Lvl1 five points, lvl2 ten points and lvl3 Fifteen points. (30 points in total for lvl3 so quite costly)

Lvl1 workd only when standing. Lvl2 workd walking crouch and standing. Lvl3 workd even while running. Lvl3 also had the most dodge points as far as I can remember. The only things the current dodge is better at than old dodge is that the new dodge duration in a fight lasts longer than the old dodge (which means if you got in couple shots the dodge depleted semi quick in a fire fight. A well timed new dodge lasts longer than that) and the point cost.

I think that's right. I also remember there being an IDR-style mechanic either from the beginning or maybe patched in one of the later builds. Or maybe that was just a result of players naturally learning to close range against dodge users, since you were more likely to hit and trigger dodge, and therefore drain an enemy's dodge points faster up close than when fighting from afar. "Emergent gameplay" indeed.

 

[Vash]

There's ways around dodge like secondary nading them, or just beating the shit out of them as a wookiee. And if there's a force user around your worried about pushing then nade then use QT and be a grease ball.