Make classic dotf playable again
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i could go on for hours about new dotf but all i will say is this:
i like old dotf because of its gameplay
i like how new dotf looks, but for various reasons the gameplay is much worse, and i will elaborate upon request
the simplest simile i have for it?
new dotf is a turd, and like a turd, it can be shined up, polished, but in the end it remains a turd
i like old dotf because of its gameplay
i like how new dotf looks, but for various reasons the gameplay is much worse, and i will elaborate upon request
the simplest simile i have for it?
new dotf is a turd, and like a turd, it can be shined up, polished, but in the end it remains a turd
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Complaining is never going to work. Ever. It causes those in power to simply double down in their beliefs. My advice to you is just vote with your time. If you want the MB2 team to bring this map back then just don't play their mod until they do. Either they'll eventually care or burn themselves into the ground depending on how many like-minded people there are. Otherwise, this may as well just be another online petition. It will go nowhere.
You've made your opinion and stance clear; and going on and on about it isn't going to motivate anybody and you're just wasting your time. You want the map back, right? Either let Mace and whoever else get to it when they decide (Since they aren't on a pay-roll or anything) or leave until they do. This community is not a republic and it isn't a democracy - it's more of an aristocracy then anything. So... realize the power you do have and use it. Or don't. But clogging up forum space for pages on end doesn't solve anything. You'd probably make more headway by befriending these people and then using that to your advantage but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
This is just a little advice to you and anybody else who may want to see some changes here or there. Use it wisely - or don't. Up to you.
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So what? The solution is to take Devs. as hostages to speed up progress? I think it's a pretty egocentric and an egotistical way to see things.
None of this would of been possible without them in the first place.. and you little brats seem to forget quite often they are not payed to do that stuff, it's all free time, do you understand? Truth is they could decide any day to fuck off the project.. (and most especially) all of you ungrateful persons with it.
This sort of behavior only reinforces the desire for remaining Devs. to stale, or leave the project just like alot previously did to.. you know... live their lives? They do not owe you anything.
Mace is conscious that DOTF.V2 need more work put into it.
Now...
How would you feel if you had put hundred and hundred of hours of your own free time to please a community, for a game you're not even being paid to work on, just to get blasted so hard.. and even threatened?
-Would you feel like putting more work into it?
-Would you even want to fix the map?
-Would you give your aggressors want they want?
Personally, I'd deeply hate all of you and wouldn't work on it just to make you angrier.. then get back to my life without ever thinking about it for few years.
You guys should be with Mace, give him motivation to work instead of comploting against him and giving him further reasons to let the problem stale or never be solved. If you'd all apologies would be a first step, but truth is, at this point, it would take alot to give him motivation to work for all of you again.
Truth is most of you couldnt even draw a square in map builder, yet do not hesitate to bash other works like its an easy and fast thing to do.
Get in line, apologies.. then wait.
...
You guys actually aggravated the current state of the game and developement each time you spited on him and the others.. never learned... pretty sad.. really.
Most of you players left around, in this desert, are all equally responsible, each year, for the slower and slower development of the game with that shitier and shitier attitude of yours... the same apply for new player retention.
Who would want to work and play with you?
Think about it.
None of this would of been possible without them in the first place.. and you little brats seem to forget quite often they are not payed to do that stuff, it's all free time, do you understand? Truth is they could decide any day to fuck off the project.. (and most especially) all of you ungrateful persons with it.
This sort of behavior only reinforces the desire for remaining Devs. to stale, or leave the project just like alot previously did to.. you know... live their lives? They do not owe you anything.
Mace is conscious that DOTF.V2 need more work put into it.
Now...
How would you feel if you had put hundred and hundred of hours of your own free time to please a community, for a game you're not even being paid to work on, just to get blasted so hard.. and even threatened?
-Would you feel like putting more work into it?
-Would you even want to fix the map?
-Would you give your aggressors want they want?
Personally, I'd deeply hate all of you and wouldn't work on it just to make you angrier.. then get back to my life without ever thinking about it for few years.
You guys should be with Mace, give him motivation to work instead of comploting against him and giving him further reasons to let the problem stale or never be solved. If you'd all apologies would be a first step, but truth is, at this point, it would take alot to give him motivation to work for all of you again.
Truth is most of you couldnt even draw a square in map builder, yet do not hesitate to bash other works like its an easy and fast thing to do.
Get in line, apologies.. then wait.
...
You guys actually aggravated the current state of the game and developement each time you spited on him and the others.. never learned... pretty sad.. really.
Most of you players left around, in this desert, are all equally responsible, each year, for the slower and slower development of the game with that shitier and shitier attitude of yours... the same apply for new player retention.
Who would want to work and play with you?
Think about it.
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The fact that you boil that down to that is pathetic.
This is pretty simple to see with just a little evidence. Look at the powerhouse amount of work I did 1.4.5 to 1.4.9. Compare that to what was put into 1.5, 1.5.1, and now. You can clearly see what motivated me does, vs unmotivated me. Changes and iterations were bam bam bam bam for months straight.
I don't want yes men who like and agree with every change I make. I just need people to not be assholes when they don't like something.
This is pretty simple to see with just a little evidence. Look at the powerhouse amount of work I did 1.4.5 to 1.4.9. Compare that to what was put into 1.5, 1.5.1, and now. You can clearly see what motivated me does, vs unmotivated me. Changes and iterations were bam bam bam bam for months straight.
I don't want yes men who like and agree with every change I make. I just need people to not be assholes when they don't like something.
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Against my better judgement i'm going to make a post. It's pretty addicting actually and I had to sit here for about 25 minutes with an internal debate to make this mistake or not, haha... but caution to the wind and long posting ahead! Call it inspiration! Call it a waste of time! Call it... well, whatever you want.
As opposed to being humble or altruistic? I think it depends on the individual to be honest. You could say some folks may protest for egotistical reasons but ultimately the players here are the "customers". If they're unhappy then it's only reasonable to suggest that they can simply do other things to make them happier (This applies to unpaid Dev's of course too.). If they, the "customers", really only care about the Classic DOTF map then that can't be helped. It's just a supply and demand market situation - except it's slow balled here because it is an unpaid project.
You're quite right; even if you're coming off as exactly what you're describing. Just to put things into perspective though - The Dev's time isn't the only time that is valuable. It's a quid pro quo relationship here. People are here because they want to be here. It's as simple as that. If players or devs feel like they aren't welcomed or want to be here then they'll leave. Each person, regardless of title, will have to decide for themselves whether or not they want to continue to be here. As you said; people have left already. Player and Dev retention seems to be pretty low and I have a hypothesis as to why that is... but more on that later.
Before I continue further into my response I wanted to add that this section alone had inspired me to reply to you. I wanted to answer this question directly to you and maybe to provide some insight to those who have never been in a position like this before.
I have put many, many, MANY hours into working on fan-projects, commercial projects and all sorts of things. Whether it's been combat systems, GUI, full on games (Released on Steam: Go check out Hum Drum Experiences. Yes, this is a plug. No, I don't expect this game to be this communities type at all!
), while working for nothing, or just out of passion.
Passion absolutely can dry up - even faster when your product or hard work is unanimously hated by some very vocal people. It totally chips away at your motivation and it takes time to recover. I think in this time people who are content creators tend to develop "fuck it" attitudes and just want to move forward with whatever makes them happy. Most people have zero idea what even goes into making something of this scope & scale. To put it into perspective of things i've had to do on various projects i'll just go over a very short, sweet and simplified version of what it even means to create a map (Since that is what's relevant here.).
1) Limitations of the tool you're working with. Sometimes a map editor can be very, very picky with what it desires. I haven't mapped with GTK Radiant or whatever this uses but there are instances in which you might try to compile something and given the dated tech it probably won't even report an accurate error that may occur - for example: With Hammer; it was (Back when I used it) required to seal your maps. Sometimes if you had multiple openings it would just crash outright depending on the complexity of what you have inside of the editor. Static meshes can be notorious for slowing this process down or outright grinding it to a halt depending on the vert's.
2) Mapping out something requires alot of textures. I don't know if this game even supports normal mapping or bump maps but diffuse textures alone can take some time. Even when you're using programs like Quixel Suite, Substance Painter, xNormal (For AO's - Ambient Occlusions) this takes time to do. But before you even get to this stage you need to UV map a mesh object that may not require seamless textures like a long wall or a floor. UV mapping is a very tedious process (especially with organic like materials.). THEN once you even have a glimmer of what you're working you need to somehow create a layout to compliment the existing gameplay in a way that you THINK players will find fun, interesting and dynamic while all looking aesthetically pleasing. All of this is creatively draining.
So with all of this laid out and said... and I don't mean this with any disrespect to you... but I hate your reasoning. Over the many years i've been programming, mapping, 3d modeling, the whole 9 yards - i've seen all kinds of people. To illustrate this point i've created a saying as a result: "Same person; new face.".
Very rarely has a majority of people truly been thankful for the work that goes into a product, from my own anecdotal view. Something I learned very early on (Ironically in the JKA community) is that most people are very selfish, vain and even egotistical as you originally said. Knowing that makes it easier to create anything going into it - it also inspired me to work more efficiently and to create everything in a modular fashion which has been insanely beneficial. It probably would have been an easier journey (As I can promise the Dev's here can testify) had the criticism over the years been more constructive and packaged nicer... but it isn't and I don't ever expect it to be. It'd be nice one day to make something for people and not be told to go fuck my mother, lol, but that is just how people online are. Anywhere. People are demanding and all I can do is improve my own skill set as a result instead of trying to demand from other people of HOW they should react.
This is where i've commented on Mace's behavior a few times before and he of course disagrees with my assessment (Which is perfectly fine! People can have different opinions! Imagine that!). More on that at the conclusion of this ordeal.
In the end... people don't give a shit about the work that goes into it. They don't understand it and they never will until they get into it themselves. Most consumers anyways. What they want is the product and for it to work for them.
I can tell you're a very passionate person who cares about this project. It's admirable in a way and I can bet the people running this community certainly appreciate it. I agree with you to a point... but you're not going to change any hearts and minds by asking apologies out of people who feel as if there has been a grievance against them. Remember; the players here have zero obligation to be here and are here because of their love of what they consider good gameplay. The developers put their love into this project but also have zero obligation to be here. It is a quid pro quo relationship and I think this project has been a huge success and factor as to why this game is still played. It's why I still play it for instance.
With all of that said however - I don't think people care if Mace or another mapper steps up to do what they're asking. They simply want what they want. They are the "customers" as I originally laid out. That dynamic is never going to go away. Their investment begins and ends the same way. With their time spent on this project.
So here we finally reach the conclusion and I promise i'll make it quick. I've put alot of thought into what you said and how you said it (thus my long response that I can only hope you will appreciate.) - while reading alot of the other posts here as well. Whether it's you or Mace, or anybody else drawing lines in the sand I will offer this as both with conviction and as a joking statement: Newton's Third Law of Motion.
Newton's Third Law of Motion is basically this: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
If you or anybody else want to change the culture of this place then it is important to understand how to talk and address people. Mace, regardless of how many times he denies it, in my opinion, keeps feeding into obvious bait to the point where trolling him and his work has become a past time for several folks at this community. He keeps biting into it and all it does is serve as a deterrent for people who come here and read the mindless nonsense that goes on and on. Though I can't really blame Mace to some extent... after all. Look at my ridiculously long post. It is pretty addicting..
All in all? People don't like being led on a string and others hate having their work called garbage. I see fault coming from both sides in an equal manner. So it's up to YOU if you care about all of that or not. Or just play the mod and ignore it. It's your choice on how you want to spend your time.
As opposed to being humble or altruistic? I think it depends on the individual to be honest. You could say some folks may protest for egotistical reasons but ultimately the players here are the "customers". If they're unhappy then it's only reasonable to suggest that they can simply do other things to make them happier (This applies to unpaid Dev's of course too.). If they, the "customers", really only care about the Classic DOTF map then that can't be helped. It's just a supply and demand market situation - except it's slow balled here because it is an unpaid project.
You're quite right; even if you're coming off as exactly what you're describing. Just to put things into perspective though - The Dev's time isn't the only time that is valuable. It's a quid pro quo relationship here. People are here because they want to be here. It's as simple as that. If players or devs feel like they aren't welcomed or want to be here then they'll leave. Each person, regardless of title, will have to decide for themselves whether or not they want to continue to be here. As you said; people have left already. Player and Dev retention seems to be pretty low and I have a hypothesis as to why that is... but more on that later.
Before I continue further into my response I wanted to add that this section alone had inspired me to reply to you. I wanted to answer this question directly to you and maybe to provide some insight to those who have never been in a position like this before.
I have put many, many, MANY hours into working on fan-projects, commercial projects and all sorts of things. Whether it's been combat systems, GUI, full on games (Released on Steam: Go check out Hum Drum Experiences. Yes, this is a plug. No, I don't expect this game to be this communities type at all!
), while working for nothing, or just out of passion. Passion absolutely can dry up - even faster when your product or hard work is unanimously hated by some very vocal people. It totally chips away at your motivation and it takes time to recover. I think in this time people who are content creators tend to develop "fuck it" attitudes and just want to move forward with whatever makes them happy. Most people have zero idea what even goes into making something of this scope & scale. To put it into perspective of things i've had to do on various projects i'll just go over a very short, sweet and simplified version of what it even means to create a map (Since that is what's relevant here.).
1) Limitations of the tool you're working with. Sometimes a map editor can be very, very picky with what it desires. I haven't mapped with GTK Radiant or whatever this uses but there are instances in which you might try to compile something and given the dated tech it probably won't even report an accurate error that may occur - for example: With Hammer; it was (Back when I used it) required to seal your maps. Sometimes if you had multiple openings it would just crash outright depending on the complexity of what you have inside of the editor. Static meshes can be notorious for slowing this process down or outright grinding it to a halt depending on the vert's.
2) Mapping out something requires alot of textures. I don't know if this game even supports normal mapping or bump maps but diffuse textures alone can take some time. Even when you're using programs like Quixel Suite, Substance Painter, xNormal (For AO's - Ambient Occlusions) this takes time to do. But before you even get to this stage you need to UV map a mesh object that may not require seamless textures like a long wall or a floor. UV mapping is a very tedious process (especially with organic like materials.). THEN once you even have a glimmer of what you're working you need to somehow create a layout to compliment the existing gameplay in a way that you THINK players will find fun, interesting and dynamic while all looking aesthetically pleasing. All of this is creatively draining.
So with all of this laid out and said... and I don't mean this with any disrespect to you... but I hate your reasoning. Over the many years i've been programming, mapping, 3d modeling, the whole 9 yards - i've seen all kinds of people. To illustrate this point i've created a saying as a result: "Same person; new face.".
Very rarely has a majority of people truly been thankful for the work that goes into a product, from my own anecdotal view. Something I learned very early on (Ironically in the JKA community) is that most people are very selfish, vain and even egotistical as you originally said. Knowing that makes it easier to create anything going into it - it also inspired me to work more efficiently and to create everything in a modular fashion which has been insanely beneficial. It probably would have been an easier journey (As I can promise the Dev's here can testify) had the criticism over the years been more constructive and packaged nicer... but it isn't and I don't ever expect it to be. It'd be nice one day to make something for people and not be told to go fuck my mother, lol, but that is just how people online are. Anywhere. People are demanding and all I can do is improve my own skill set as a result instead of trying to demand from other people of HOW they should react.
This is where i've commented on Mace's behavior a few times before and he of course disagrees with my assessment (Which is perfectly fine! People can have different opinions! Imagine that!). More on that at the conclusion of this ordeal.
In the end... people don't give a shit about the work that goes into it. They don't understand it and they never will until they get into it themselves. Most consumers anyways. What they want is the product and for it to work for them.
I can tell you're a very passionate person who cares about this project. It's admirable in a way and I can bet the people running this community certainly appreciate it. I agree with you to a point... but you're not going to change any hearts and minds by asking apologies out of people who feel as if there has been a grievance against them. Remember; the players here have zero obligation to be here and are here because of their love of what they consider good gameplay. The developers put their love into this project but also have zero obligation to be here. It is a quid pro quo relationship and I think this project has been a huge success and factor as to why this game is still played. It's why I still play it for instance.
With all of that said however - I don't think people care if Mace or another mapper steps up to do what they're asking. They simply want what they want. They are the "customers" as I originally laid out. That dynamic is never going to go away. Their investment begins and ends the same way. With their time spent on this project.
So here we finally reach the conclusion and I promise i'll make it quick. I've put alot of thought into what you said and how you said it (thus my long response that I can only hope you will appreciate.) - while reading alot of the other posts here as well. Whether it's you or Mace, or anybody else drawing lines in the sand I will offer this as both with conviction and as a joking statement: Newton's Third Law of Motion.
Newton's Third Law of Motion is basically this: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
If you or anybody else want to change the culture of this place then it is important to understand how to talk and address people. Mace, regardless of how many times he denies it, in my opinion, keeps feeding into obvious bait to the point where trolling him and his work has become a past time for several folks at this community. He keeps biting into it and all it does is serve as a deterrent for people who come here and read the mindless nonsense that goes on and on. Though I can't really blame Mace to some extent... after all. Look at my ridiculously long post. It is pretty addicting.
.All in all? People don't like being led on a string and others hate having their work called garbage. I see fault coming from both sides in an equal manner. So it's up to YOU if you care about all of that or not. Or just play the mod and ignore it. It's your choice on how you want to spend your time.
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If you or anybody else want to change the culture of this place then it is important to understand how to talk and address people. Mace, regardless of how many times he denies it, in my opinion, keeps feeding into obvious bait to the point where trolling him and his work has become a past time for several folks at this community. He keeps biting into it and all it does is serve as a deterrent for people who come here and read the mindless nonsense that goes on and on. Though I can't really blame Mace to some extent... after all. Look at my ridiculously long post. It is pretty addicting.
This is what is known as a no-win scenario. If I don't engage, I am targeted, bashed, complained about. If I do engage, its the same thing regardless of what I do. Even when I have done exactly what some members of the community want I am still targeted and complained about.
I would rather show that I am active in the community and pay attention to what people are saying, than to be completely silent. That way they can't say that I am ignoring them because I am not.
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You're in a leadership position. You will be targeted no matter what you do or don't do.
You are a talented level designer who clearly has a strong grasp on the Star Wars aesthetic. You don't need to prove yourself to anybody. Speak through your work would be my advice. I think you'll lose interest in your passion if you keep choosing this hill to die on. Spite can only carry someone so far. I dunno. I think i've made my point pretty clear. No real reason for me to keep harping on this. Good luck!
I believe SaucyMonkey ( really nice post by the way ) is completely right in this instance though.
Don't bother engaging with the troll-ish few who are obviously trying to hurt you or will always be rude as hell, you can be active enough through conventional channels like developer logs and the roadmap website you've put in place. While you had legitimacy to do so, you can come off as pretty cold yourself at times. Your critics can be insulting and dismissive of actual arguments all they want with no consequences: you unfortunately don't have that luxury, however unfair that might be.
You could even not communicate at all and do your job just as well in my opinion: in that sense, IceFrog's example of barely ever communicating with the notoriously toxic Dota 2 community is pretty eloquent: in the end, he only reaped more respect than he would have ever gotten had he interacted with it even slightly more.
Don't bother engaging with the troll-ish few who are obviously trying to hurt you or will always be rude as hell, you can be active enough through conventional channels like developer logs and the roadmap website you've put in place. While you had legitimacy to do so, you can come off as pretty cold yourself at times. Your critics can be insulting and dismissive of actual arguments all they want with no consequences: you unfortunately don't have that luxury, however unfair that might be.
You could even not communicate at all and do your job just as well in my opinion: in that sense, IceFrog's example of barely ever communicating with the notoriously toxic Dota 2 community is pretty eloquent: in the end, he only reaped more respect than he would have ever gotten had he interacted with it even slightly more.
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Yeah that's the issue, i've felt the same thing over and over again, some people end up happy but others unhappy, and even sometimes the happy ones realize what they wanted wasn't so great over time (which is noone's fault really, just experience kicking in with time). It seems more optimal not to do what people say to the letter and be too proactive about it but rather get a general feel for diverse opinions to shape your own opinion, then slowly probe the issue and look for solutions according to that, before making a final decision.
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AOD 24/7 server has slowly died since new DOTF came out, what does that tell you?
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I'm sorry, I'm quite lost still.
The only answers I've seen from @MaceMadunusus so far is stuff like "I already explained this"
Can I please get a reply from Mace telling me why the community can't just get dotf back?
I understand you got upset at some trolls as we all do, but why withhold a map from the community?
Like some have said, we need to treat the devs with respect to gain anything from this game and allow them to happily continue their work, but the reason people are "badgering" or "whining" or however you like to put, the reason is because you won't just simply put it back in.
The community wants dotf. There's no reason to withhold it. Put dotf in, happy community, happy devs.
Yes, you put work into the new dotf, Yes, it's fun and it looks nice, Yes, the community likes it.
But Yes, the community likes the old map better.
So why not just "Yes" to adding it back in?
Are you worried that if you add it back in that it may look like you've "given up" or let the trolls win? That it would look like you take orders from the community and do what they say? (which you don't)
If that's the case, yikes.
The only answers I've seen from @MaceMadunusus so far is stuff like "I already explained this"
Can I please get a reply from Mace telling me why the community can't just get dotf back?
I understand you got upset at some trolls as we all do, but why withhold a map from the community?
Like some have said, we need to treat the devs with respect to gain anything from this game and allow them to happily continue their work, but the reason people are "badgering" or "whining" or however you like to put, the reason is because you won't just simply put it back in.
The community wants dotf. There's no reason to withhold it. Put dotf in, happy community, happy devs.
Yes, you put work into the new dotf, Yes, it's fun and it looks nice, Yes, the community likes it.
But Yes, the community likes the old map better.
So why not just "Yes" to adding it back in?
Are you worried that if you add it back in that it may look like you've "given up" or let the trolls win? That it would look like you take orders from the community and do what they say? (which you don't)
If that's the case, yikes.
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Also @MaceMadunusus 's little note at the bottom says "Opinions expressed are solely my own and do not express the views or opinions of the Movie Battles Team."
Cool, can we get some more input from the MovieBattles team on this? Let's lay this thing to rest, either give us a straight YAY OR NAY for the addition of old dotf. Either say you're done putting up with people's bullcrap and that as punishment or as a decision you're excluding, or just add it in and put this behind us.
Cool, can we get some more input from the MovieBattles team on this? Let's lay this thing to rest, either give us a straight YAY OR NAY for the addition of old dotf. Either say you're done putting up with people's bullcrap and that as punishment or as a decision you're excluding, or just add it in and put this behind us.
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I'm reading even if I'm not speaking.
My entirely candid thoughts are - I have no problem with a DOTF classic being available and a map in the mod the same as any other. I wouldn't want mappers to have to support two versions of DOTF so the classic one probably wouldn't see any updates. I don't think the classic map should be re-released exactly as it was - I think the removal of the troll elements was a good thing. I am concerned about the possibility of the return of DOTF 24/7 Servers - As many people that hate that DOTF classic isn't available, orders of magnitude more players quit because of DOTF 24/7, but considering we now have deathstart 24/7 this is probably a separate issue.
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