I haven't played MBII consistently for 3 years, here's why.

[noel]

Agree with Sev on almost everything.
Just don't know if I really want swingblocks to be stronger than normal hits. But hey.

Everything else is pretty much on point

ACM




This is quite important.
If my opinion, or, say, feedback have a value - I wish to add this value to what's sev said about ACM.
ALL OF IT.

Saber perks
I'm not a fan of saber perks, honestly. When they were first introduced I was against it, and now I'm still against it. Perks like "Drain BP on PB" is pure evil. It doesn't add any "personallity" to saberstyle, It just forces players to use certain strategy with said style. This is what you call "boring gameplay"

Reintroduce swing restricions
Yes, for the love of the god, please do!
I hovewer suggest that it would require some tweaking to PB zones, because it would be much easier to PB with swing restrictions in place.

NB & NB Counter
Um. I don't know.
Do we really need two types of PB? I don't mind it, but cannot tell without proper testing.

Normal block was quite unreliable, and It also was dependant on stance (not saber style, but stance). It surely added some flavor and "personallity" to styles. For example staff pblocking was quite unique and fun on it's own. But uhh, I never liked it.

As replacement of current pb? No, please.
As some additional way of pblocking? Um... don't know.. maybe.

NB isnt neccessary imo

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

Sev, you put into words how I've felt with recent builds but didn't know exactly why. The root causes you've stated are most definitely it. The changes you propose also seem fair and balanced while promoting more skillful, faster duels. I'd really like to try a system like that out.

topkek

 

[Tempest]

Why flinch removal?

The main reason we introduced flinch is to fix situations were a new player can destroy a seasoned gunner by just holding W + Forward + Attack1. We should improve it, not remove. Make it more consistent and perhaps less punishing for saberists.

There's not really a way to improve it without making it even more inconsistent.

Defence buff: Pblock gives a temporary bp regen boost that stacks up based on how many consecutive pblocks you land. For every 1 consecutive pblock your bp regen gets increased by 5% for 5 seconds. So if you landed 4 pblocks in a row, you would have 20% more bp regen for 20 seconds.

Something like this?

Perfect Block Adjustments

New: Getting PB'd now plays a green hit indicator for the attacker
New: PB'ing someone during the PB counter window (200ms after triggering a PB; meaning this won't happen on your first PB) triggers new effects.
Drains 1 ACM from the attacker
Regens 3 BP for the defender.

Edit:
I'm thinking now that I'm going to finish polishing up the current beta build and then have the simplified version as well. Having both testable will let the community decide what they think is best and we can go with that.

 

[Deleted member 1872]

I was at work when all of this got posted initially (I did read through but I couldn't respond). After more discussions, general consensus (both as a result of this as well as stuff that's been in the background for a while) is leading to the following:
- Removal of flinch and restoration of knockback. Already done doing this.
- Removal of any "FP debuff"-esque mechanics. Already done doing this.
- No more super tank blocking saberists (goes with the above). Already done with this. Simplified it to a baseline of 25% reduction in FP damage while blocking. No further increase to those who are running. See one of my other posts elsewhere that explains all of the FP drain math.
- Putting the saber system back into a state similar to how it was prior/up to 1.3 (much simpler, no/non-universal ACM stuff, no perks; Just differing animations, attack/defense ratings). Currently working on this.


I think that it's better balanced by a lower FP cost with a small BP cost (since it is basically a hyper-attack). This also lets it be balanced in cases such as someone spamming stabs with Duals when they're at low-0 BP and making it extremely difficult or impossible to finish them off.

Just for reference, staggers and flinches are exactly the same thing (though most might think of flinching as where it just simply stops the swing like with how it works when you get shot while swingblocking). Less staggers of any sort = better. They're extremely intrusive and generally obnoxious to be on the receiving end of. Already tried Purple stab being back and it was horrible/a good reminder for why it got removed. Specials in beta are good examples of how they should be (providing some protection and decent damage as a baseline without being blenders).

Working on it!

Just need to look at the knockback code that's sitting around and make sure whatever cases of super launching people back don't come up again.

The only bad thing that happened to grip was that it became a lot less cheese. It's actually stronger aside from that (though the timing on it could use tweaking, which is something I'm going to be looking at for my indepth run-through of tweaks to powers). Lightning is still cheese and needs a better baseline but in the long run will actually be stronger/more useful.

I don't know if it's ever been discussed but it's not something you can really just snap your fingers and have done. Not terribly difficult but it does require care to make sure nothing unintentional occurs (see the bugged 7 single saber style build I tend to use as a good example of what can happen..). More powers are in the same boat but also require things from scratch (and I do have some powers that I really want to put in!) as well.

People not playing the maps and whatnot aren't really something we can control without really stepping on toes and I doubt anyone on the team wants to delve into that territory. If the server owners don't want to play on maps, they don't have to. If servers are set up with RTV and people don't play on whatever maps, that's their choice.

The way the points are set up are for balancing purposes. Having a streamlined expectation for Open mode needs some limitations.


This is something that's come up on many occasions but I'd rather leave it to @Viserys or @Defiant to comment. Also as a side note, you can't really ever have truly unlimited rounds because of technical limitiations/issues that would arise.


Similar to the above but in regards to the actual requirements for allowing such things...it requires basically intentionally breaking through a lot of checks and code that try to prevent things from breaking. Just getting midround joining in duel mode was a huge headache (and there's still some buggy behavior that's not even something I can directly fix in the code I put together).


If you're referring to base JKA maps then a large majority of them aren't suited for MB2. FFA maps aren't suited for objective play.


That's more a personal issue than a game issue. If you aren't willing to put time into learning/improving at something, then why should you be getting the same results as someone who does?

Can't wait for those updates

 

[SomeGuy]

topkek

I meant more along the lines of vs gunners but thought it would help with the slow drawn out duels too. But they way sabering is now it's either swingblock, or try and combo and get knocked over. Duels should be more aggressive and faster.

 

[Eazy E]

Most of it is OK, however:
Running hits should do more damage. Not the other way around. It's the only way that makes sense. Running = momentum = more damage. It's risk vs reward, as you're vulnerable to slaps and getting hit yourself which obviously would drain more BP than if you were walking.
.

Have you ever been in a fight? Any amateur fighter will tell you a lot of power from your strikes come from a strong stance thats why you don't see boxers running up before punching.

 

[noel]

Have you ever been in a fight? Any amateur fighter will tell you a lot of power from your strikes come from a strong stance thats why you don't see boxers running up before punching.

also its coming from someone who shadowswings a lot from what i saw dueling him today

for the sake of being annoying i honestly think sev's idea is better and if not then a considerable damage increase/slow effect on hitting a running opponent

 

[SneakDissing]

Have you ever been in a fight? Any amateur fighter will tell you a lot of power from your strikes come from a strong stance thats why you don't see boxers running up before punching.

i got in a fight once

my mom yelled at me

it was scary

 

[Shady]

Well well, if this isn't the most exciting thread on the forums of all times.

SeV, I appreciate your time and effort to address your thoughts and attempt to improve the dueling scene. Devs, thanks for going for 90% of the proposed changes.

As for the dueling community, I can't wait to test both betas inside-out and decide which one is superior. Exciting times lads, this thread is straight fire

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

That sounds good on paper, but then the game will directly tell player that the opponent has low BP.

And this is bad because?

Almost all fighting games give a life bar. It's a game way of indicating fatigue. Promotes reckless play from the leading player, prompts defensive play from the defender. Creates power dynamics that are visible. Improves game readability.

I consider these beneficial implications.

 

[jewbacca]

And this is bad because?

MBII is incomplete information game. These are different from street fighter, or, say, chess.
Imagine if you had a lifebar over oppnent's head in quake3, immediately showing his stack. Wouldn't it ruin 3/4 of fun? Hell it would.

Like... I'm trying to tell that showing opponent's bp will ruin some of the strategies that rely on opponent not knowing shit. Like faking low bp or something.

Improves game readability.

Questioning readability btw. I'm not sure if telling opponent's remaining bp via force focus is a valid game design move.

 

[hleV]

Have you ever been in a fight? Any amateur fighter will tell you a lot of power from your strikes come from a strong stance thats why you don't see boxers running up before punching.

Have YOU? Stamina is a thing IRL.

And this is bad because?

Almost all fighting games give a life bar.

That's your argument?
You're not really a duelist are you. There's such a thing as predicting opponent's BP and faking your own.
Your suggestion of EZ Force Focus vs low BP brings more problems than EZ Force Focus vs Runners.

 

[Mara]

Most of it is OK, however:

MBlock should cost BP. Disarming is bullshit and not a fun part of dueling, the better players were decided by their ability to drain opponents' BP to 0, not disarming and killing them whilst having less BP. It whould still be an option against those who get overconfident.
Running hits should do more damage. Not the other way around. It's the only way that makes sense. Running = momentum = more damage. It's risk vs reward, as you're vulnerable to slaps and getting hit yourself which obviously would drain more BP than if you were walking.
Swingblocks should do less damage. Again risk vs reward.

I agree, one more problem with the running less damage thing would be, that it would give even less movement during duels than we already have now.
Right now all i see we have according to movement would be, going forward attack, going back pb wait for your turn, repeat. Until a mblock instant swing ( dunno how you call it) ruins the whole flow of the duel itself. Which i also hate the fact that you're actually encouraging disarm with this mechanic, lulz.

 

[noel]

I agree, one more problem with the running less damage thing would be, that it would give even less movement during duels than we already have now.
Right now all i see we have according to movement would be, going forward attack, going back pb wait for your turn, repeat. Until a mblock instant swing ( dunno how you call it) ruins the whole flow of the duel itself. Which i also hate the fact that you're actually encouraging disarm with this mechanic, lulz.

who really wants more movement? most ppl ive asked would rather shadow swing and running were less viable, if you want to play a game where everyones running around dodging swings theres ja+

u can still walk and use good movement which takes a lot more skill than running away and half swinging in and out over and over

 

[AaronAaron]

Just remove all styles except for yellow and revert dueling back to 1.4.2 where semi pb was actually a thing and meant that you didn't have to run after you finish your combo

 

[Mara]

who really wants more movement? most ppl ive asked would rather shadow swing and running were less viable, if you want to play a game where everyones running around dodging swings theres ja+
u can still walk and use good movement which takes a lot more skill than running away and half swinging in and out over and over

I do, because i just stated that
Ja+ is just something entirely different than this, and i think more movement, and especially more tactical movement would do the game more good than being stagnant and walking back and forward all day long. It's just pretty numb to me;p Also who's the bigger newb, the newb who shadowswings all day long, or the newb who can't catch the shadowswinguh :3 Running away like this is okay for me, if it isn't running around the whole freaking map ;D

Just remove all styles except for yellow and revert dueling back to 1.4.2

lolz, yellow masterrace

 

[noel]

I do, because i just stated that
Ja+ is just something entirely different than this, and i think more movement, and especially more tactical movement would do the game more good than being stagnant and walking back and forward all day long. It's just pretty numb to me;p Also who's the bigger newb, the newb who shadowswings all day long, or the newb who can't catch the shadowswinguh :3

lolz, yellow masterrace

lol 'ur bad u dont have an opinion!!' nice

it takes infinitely less skill to dodge swings than it does to pblock swings, it literally makes pblock useless because theres no upside to skillfully pbing something compared to straight up running away

then u get the ppl who run away until you play aggressive then slap u as soon as you get near, then the people who play out of range until you miss a swing and then 4 hit you, then the people who, when they're low, continuously run/regen and slap whenever you get near/kick you/hit you first as they can pre-empt your aggression

you also cant gain more speed than them unless you use force speed so in theory once out of range, they can stay out of range forever

but thats just because i cant hit shadowswingers because im a noob !!

 

[Mara]

it takes infinitely less skill to dodge swings than it does to pblock swings, it literally makes pblock useless because theres no upside to skillfully pbing something compared to straight up running away

Not really, you know aiming isn't really that hard, also it takes an effort knowing the range of the swing and at what stages the swing is, to successfully avoid it and going in for an attack.

then u get the ppl who run away until you play aggressive then slap u as soon as you get near, then the people who play out of range until you miss a swing and then 4 hit you,

That's also called baiting, tricking you to do stuff and work against it. Kinda counter playstyle more or less o.o you can avoid that by acting as if you were gonna attack, do a bait swing instead and then wait for their 4 hit combo/slap;D

then the people who, when they're low, continuously run/regen and slap whenever you get near/kick you/hit you first as they can pre-empt your aggression

Yeah avoid slap by swingblocking you said it yourself, or just blocking before they slap its kinda a prediction. But yeah i kind of hate these kinda people too in general that's all mindgames, gotta find your own way to counter this kinda shit. Taking that out of the game can simply destroy other things, but you could also just make duelling walk only if you like that kind of numbness stagnate mindless 4 hit combo spam walking back and forwards duelling ;D

you also cant gain more speed than them unless you use force speed so in theory once out of range, they can stay out of range forever

Blue style works good at catching such runners, but tbh if they really run across the whole fucking map like i stated earlier, why even duel them? they honeslty probably just want to troll you, or care way to much about their silly ego k/d.

but thats just because i cant hit shadowswingers because im a noob !!

Exactly, l2p git gut you freaking newb ^-^

 

[noel]

Not really, you know aiming isn't really that hard, also it takes an effort knowing the range of the swing and at what stages the swing is, to successfully avoid it and going in for an attack.

That's also called baiting, tricking you to do stuff and work against it. Kinda counter playstyle more or less o.o you can avoid that by acting as if you were gonna attack, do a bait swing instead and then wait for their 4 hit combo;D

Yeah avoid slap by swingblocking you said it yourself, or just blocking before they slap its kinda a prediction. But yeah i kind of hate these kinda people too in general that's all mindgames, gotta find your own way to counter this kinda shit. Taking that out of the game can simply destroy other things, but you could also just make duelling walk only if you like that kind of numbness stagnate mindless 4 hit combo spam walking back and forwards duelling ;D

Blue style works good at catching such runners, but tbh if they really run across the whole fucking map like i stated earlier, why even duel them? they honeslty probably just want to troll you, or care way to much about their silly ego k/d.

Exactly, l2p git gut you freaking newb ^-^

if you can shadowswing so well then the change i suggested of getting slowed down when you're hit shouldnt affect you so don't worry about it

 

[Mara]

if you can shadowswing so well then the change i suggested of getting slowed down when you're hit shouldnt affect you so don't worry about it

I wonder what made you so salty , i really didn't mean to offend with this newb crap, c'mon get off your high horse, we are all newbs herec:
also i was talking about running hits make less damage, not hitting slowing me down when i run, i think there is a good solution or punishment already in case if a bodyhit during run accours, it makes even more damage to me when i get hit while i run
It also slowes me down but that can likely be only be me ;D