The next steps forward

Hey everyone. I know that a lot of were expecting changes for the current state of saber v gunner and/or saber v saber in this patch but I assure you, things are still in motion to get those settled and pushed out!

As a preface, MB2 has had a theme of changing things for the sake of changing or trying to address problems in really weird/roundabout ways and not actually solving the issues. This leads/has led to problems not actually being solved and/or creating new ones (although there's been a lot of cool stuff along the way). Moving forward, there's going to be more focus on adjusting things to being able to have more static baselines (e.g. there shouldn't be any major overhauls to saber v gunner interactions once all of this stuff is sorted out) or prepping for future changes, whether completely new features or more intricate adjustments to current ones.

We want to make the game feel more dynamic, volatile, exciting, and of course, fun. That is the main focus of these changes for the next patch as well as the long term goal for MB2 overall.

That said, some time in the following days, we are going to set up an open beta for testing the adjustments to saber v gunner. This will likely involve reconfiguring one of the official servers with the new changes (no messing with files for anyone who wants to try them out!), having a channel on the official discord dedicated to discussions, as well as scheduled times for when devs/beta testers will be around to observe/gather feedback firsthand during gameplay.

Things that will be different and that will be closely looked at include (but aren't limited to) the following:

• No more flinch
• No more FP regen debuff
• Increased knockback against saberists
• Jedi/Sith only having damage reduction in specific circumstances (not universally)
• Changes to caps on FP drains (especially for blocking)
• Tweaks to Pistol/Bowcaster charged damage
• Ammo changes for the Projectile Rifle
• Adjustments to projectile speeds

There's more but those are the main points of interest for gameplay changes. Additionally, what's listed in the final changelog that will be included with the open beta is not the extent of what's being looked at. This is just what's been fully agreed on, vetted, and implemented.

I'm also hoping that more transparency on what's being worked on as well as why will help improve community relations in the long run and make it easier for both those working on the mod as well as those waiting for new toys/features/etc. On that note, for those still wondering about the saber system changes, we're still working on figuring out the details since those aren't purely server-side adjustments. Stay tuned for more info!

 

[Lessen]

You're effectively making it no different from an E-33, and bounty hunters/heroes don't have a jetpack with which to get around.

lolwut, wutlol, what the hell even is this comparison

anyway, projectile ammo reduction makes it a more limited-use tool where you have to be more careful with each shot. It's a simple and reasonable fix to reduce the tendency of proj snipers to just fling rocks down halls carelessly and constantly.

Also, is there a clarification on this whole damage reduction only working in certain scenarios? Because if flinch is being completely removed, then so should damage reduction.

In the current open beta damage reduction only applies to roll getups (AD getups I assume), friendly fire (thankfully), and force whores (all the time). Simple enough.

Also, is there a clarification on the projectile speed? Is that for projectile rifle or for all guns in general?

All "gun" "projectiles" (which includes all blasters and guns and whatever, and even rockets) are 15% faster, in the open beta.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

anyway, projectile ammo reduction makes it a more limited-use tool where you have to be more careful with each shot.

Exactly. Its a utility weapon. not a primary weapon.

 

[Tasmann]

That's a bit infuriating tbh. If I'm in a full game I don't just throw rocks around, I snipe with purpose and a chosen target, however, if I'm in a full game with 15 players on the other team, sniping is going to be useless, because I'll need to have near 100% accuracy for it to be meaningful, especially if there are wookiees and SBD's to counter, which the former can tank 2 projectiles, and the latter can tank 2-3 depending. That subtracts really quickly in those scenarios, and many times the sniper is the best strategy against those juggernaughts. It's silly. Why make it even harder for the classes that already take more skill instead of balancing out the easy classes?

 

[Lessen]

if I'm in a full game with 15 players on the other team, sniping is going to be useless, because I'll need to have near 100% accuracy for it to be meaningful

lol

you can't wipe the entire enemy team, so it's useless? Alright then. It's a powerful but limited resource, the same way any kind of grenade is, the same way Wook/SBD health is, the same way fuel is. You get however much mileage out of it that you can, maybe you save some shots for emergencies, and at some point you gotta switch to a more long-term gun like P3, E-11, or DLT.

(side note: 16 frags when, I can't be useful if I can't grenade the entire enemy team to death. Fix your fucking game.)

also:

Why make it even harder for the classes that already take more skill instead of balancing out the easy classes?

Wook charge shot got (essentially) nerfed, T-21 got nerfed a little, dodge is getting nerfed, conc blob got nerfed a little, sec frags got a little nerf vs jedi/sith (no more FP drain), and even stamina just got nerfed a little (no more free stamina-walking). The easy classes are getting worked on too.

 

[Onysfx]

@Tasmann I like your profile pic, that's from skirata mandos right?

As for me, playing as BH a lot I honestly think the ammo nerf is fine. Perhaps I don't use the projectile as much as others do, so it doesn't bother me as much. I'm curious why ammo 1 and 2 go from 8 to 10, and ammo 3 is 15. Kinda an odd gap there, but I think I see the point, making ammo 3 a more worthwhile investment.

 

[Lessen]

@Tasmann @MaceMadunusus I just thought of something to keep proj as a utility while also allowing for sniper mains.

Observation: Projectile rifle is distinct in its munition type. It throws rocks. So it doesn't entirely make sense for purchase of "Ammo" (energy, usually) to also stock up your proj.

What if proj got changed to have the same 10-20-30 buyroute as PLX, with each level just being more ammo? The levels could grant 4-12-24 shots. At this price point, someone who wants to wipe the whole enemy team could still buy enough ammo to do that, but in exchange they would have barely any points to spend on other resources—20, enough to buy full armor, ammo 2, and a level 1 E-11—meaning that by virtue of choosing to fully wield a utility weapon, they'd become a utility class, like the PLX ARC. Sniper mains would still exist, but they'd be a lot easier to kill at close range (although shotgun is still super dangerous ofc, but it'd be much more of a gamble if you didn't have a strong sidearm to fall back on).

 

[MaceMadunusus]

That is likely a bit too far in my opinion.

 

[Lessen]

Huh, thought you'd think it wasn't far enough, since it would return 24-shot proj sniper to the game, and a 24-shot proj sniper with a good team can get by just fine never switching to a sidearm if he has a decent team to hide behind.

Also worth noting that this would allow someone to buy a 4-shot proj for just 10 points, actually decreasing the cost-of-entry for proj access. Those 4 shots could go a long way as a utility in the right hands.

So I really thought you'd say it wasn't far enough

edit: oh, and, even a level 1 E-11 is pretty dangerous in the right hands, and you'd have armor 3, so even a full-sniper BH wouldn't be a total cakewalk to kill.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

That wouldn't make it a utility weapon, it would make it a primary weapon. Because since you wouldn't be using ammo, you would have less reason to dump points into e-11 or pistol.

 

[Lessen]

That wouldn't make it a utility weapon, it would make it a primary weapon.

Is the 6-shot PLX a primary weapon? I see it as a utility weapon, with a PLX ARC as a "utility class" because of it.

edit: In my mind a utility weapon is a weapon with serious limitations that keep it from being used as a primary weapon, and a utility class is a class with serious limitations that keep it from dealing with many kinds of situations.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Is the 6-shot PLX a primary weapon? I see it as a utility weapon, with a PLX ARC as a "utility class" because of it.

Exactly because it has 6 shots. If you do this and keep the current limit, you keep the primary aspect of the weapon, just limit their choices by not having two primary weapons or making having two primaries less viable point wise.

 

[Lessen]

But the long reload time on proj already means you can't use proj as a true primary weapon in fights, unless you only fight one person at a time and you always kill them with the first shot. Even very good proj snipers are very frequently seen being forced to switch off to their P3 because they can't really use the proj as a primary weapon. Reducing the funds left for sidearms etc would make proj sniper much more vulnerable in lots of situations, which in my mind would qualify it as a "utility class."

But I will concede that compared to PLX ARC, it'd have higher potential for total kills over the duration of the round. But unlike PLX ARC, it'd suck against basically every other class at close range unless the player landed every shotgun perfectly and was never attacked by more than one person at once. PLX gets 6 fairly free gunner kills AND has 100/100 hp armor and a Westar M5 (albeit not one with tons of ammo).

 

[MaceMadunusus]

But the long reload time on proj already means you can't use proj as a true primary weapon in fights, unless you only fight one person at a time and you always kill them with the first shot. .

People find a way anyway. Those stupid dancing proj fights are stupid.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Honestly, these days it would seem that most imp snipers are now switching to disruptor, and that weapon being hitscan should be easier to use (because you don't have to compensate for a little movement).

Proj are mostly a thing for heros now since they don't have access to an alternative. Would it be a good thing to give hero another snipy gun that would equate to disr. BH have a lot of good tools for offence(disr,poison,track,thermal D) but hero are more defence oriented (dodge,heal,basic nades) and they tend to rely on P3 as a main (if they can aim). Does reducing proj increase this asymmetry in your eyes?

 

[Tasmann]

@Tasmann @MaceMadunusus I just thought of something to keep proj as a utility while also allowing for sniper mains.

Observation: Projectile rifle is distinct in its munition type. It throws rocks. So it doesn't entirely make sense for purchase of "Ammo" (energy, usually) to also stock up your proj.

What if proj got changed to have the same 10-20-30 buyroute as PLX, with each level just being more ammo? The levels could grant 4-12-24 shots. At this price point, someone who wants to wipe the whole enemy team could still buy enough ammo to do that, but in exchange they would have barely any points to spend on other resources—20, enough to buy full armor, ammo 2, and a level 1 E-11—meaning that by virtue of choosing to fully wield a utility weapon, they'd become a utility class, like the PLX ARC. Sniper mains would still exist, but they'd be a lot easier to kill at close range (although shotgun is still super dangerous ofc, but it'd be much more of a gamble if you didn't have a strong sidearm to fall back on).

That will certainly work if you want to piss off every single hero/bounty hunter out there. You're talking about investing 60 fucking points in one gun to get 24 bullets. That's insanity. There is never going to be a situation in a game like this with the maps that are most commonly used where a sniper can effectively play without any sort of viable sidearm, not to mention you'll make it damn near impossible for hero/bounty hunter to fight against sith/jedi respectively, since that would remove the possibility of dash and poison, or make it so that knocking them down with melee and blasting them with sidearm will be useless and too risky with not enough pay-off. On the gunner side, you would make him extremely vulnerable to spray and pray as he can't get enough armor to survive much. Also, with flinch being removed, they are going to need powerful sidearms, as shooting at close range and relying on that will be of no use. Absolutely no one would take the projectile rifle if that was the case. How the hell do you figure this to be a good middle ground? Lmao.

No, if ammo is going to get reduced, then what needs to happen is it needs to not be so egredious as the one being done right now. Instead of level 3 ammo giving 15, it should give a nice even 20. That would be a good middle ground. Level 1 - 10, Level 2 - 15, Level 3 - 20. I think those are much better numbers.

 

[Tempest]

The current ammo levels in the beta sessions is actually me being more lenient than what I had originally thought of for reduced ammo levels. There's no reason one weapon should be able to 1 shot an entire enemy team on a fully populated server without actually having some risk to missing shots (I don't think it should even have enough ammo to 1 shot the entire enemy team in the first place but again, being more lenient with 15 as the highest ammo level).

 

[President Bossk]

I think it's fine, please don't nerf it further.

 

[Tasmann]

The current ammo levels in the beta sessions is actually me being more lenient than what I had originally thought of for reduced ammo levels. There's no reason one weapon should be able to 1 shot an entire enemy team on a fully populated server without actually having some risk to missing shots (I don't think it should even have enough ammo to 1 shot the entire enemy team in the first place but again, being more lenient with 15 as the highest ammo level).

Not everyone wants to carry around glowsticks, Tempest.

In all seriousness though, you honestly don't think there's a risk every time a sniper pops his head out? There's a lot of risk already just to do that with the fire delay on the projectile rifle and having to account for that. I don't know where you people get off thinking that snipers are OP, they're honestly not. Most of my kills come from P3 is a hero/bounty hunter usually, not to mention that if you're going up against a lot of soldiers, that's 3 bullets per player, and so at the most, if you have 100% accuracy, you could kill 5 people on the other team just using the projectile rifle, which is highly, HIGHLY unlikely. The problem is that you probably keep hearing complaints from newbies fresh off of the Disney bandwagon who are all of the sudden into Star Wars again. They enter the server, they go some random class (usually a glowstick-carrier), and then they get their asses handed to them because they don't know how to play the game, and then they start whining and complaining that "the game's too hard." The fact of the matter is that 8 times out of 10 the people who complain that snipers are OP are the ones who have far inferior skills or experience, and it's absurd to cater the mod to them, because then that takes the competitiveness out of the mod. How about nerfing something worthwhile like force push or some other insta ez-win thing such as that that really requires no skill at all rather than making it harder for the people who actually bother getting good at the game to enjoy it?

The absolute minimum that the projectile rifle should have at max ammo is 20 rounds. That's simply the truth. Rarely do you ever run into scenarios where a sniper single-handedly wipes out the entire enemy team by just throwing rocks down the hallway, especially with as ridiculously precise the hit-points on the models are. There's no reason whatsoever to nerf projectile rifle, and it is fine where it is at, especially considering the fact that it's the only true sniper rifle that the rebels have.

Also, another reason why this needs to not be nerfed so hard is because all these fucking newbie jedi run around all over the hallways like they're invincible, and so can never get the perfect shot, and end up missing a lot trying to make sure you avoid the jedi. Seriously, don't fucking nerf proj rifle, it's not necessary.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

The absolute minimum that the projectile rifle should have at max ammo is 20 rounds

If you need at least 20 bullets to do well with proj, I'm afraid you are a VERY bad sniper.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Sniper and skilled? Lucky maybe, but skilled...no.
Most of them waiting behind their mates until someone got pushed to get some easy kill.
Still wouldnt care about these type of sniper.
The worst are the sniper kids who jump around the corner for a luckshot and kill a teammate and of course the arrogant ones who shoot in a duel and hit also the mate in their stupidity.
So if this class gets harder and fewer people play it, I definitely would appreciate that.
And if someone think only saberists have a problem with snipers youre wrong.