The next steps forward

Hey everyone. I know that a lot of were expecting changes for the current state of saber v gunner and/or saber v saber in this patch but I assure you, things are still in motion to get those settled and pushed out!

As a preface, MB2 has had a theme of changing things for the sake of changing or trying to address problems in really weird/roundabout ways and not actually solving the issues. This leads/has led to problems not actually being solved and/or creating new ones (although there's been a lot of cool stuff along the way). Moving forward, there's going to be more focus on adjusting things to being able to have more static baselines (e.g. there shouldn't be any major overhauls to saber v gunner interactions once all of this stuff is sorted out) or prepping for future changes, whether completely new features or more intricate adjustments to current ones.

We want to make the game feel more dynamic, volatile, exciting, and of course, fun. That is the main focus of these changes for the next patch as well as the long term goal for MB2 overall.

That said, some time in the following days, we are going to set up an open beta for testing the adjustments to saber v gunner. This will likely involve reconfiguring one of the official servers with the new changes (no messing with files for anyone who wants to try them out!), having a channel on the official discord dedicated to discussions, as well as scheduled times for when devs/beta testers will be around to observe/gather feedback firsthand during gameplay.

Things that will be different and that will be closely looked at include (but aren't limited to) the following:

• No more flinch
• No more FP regen debuff
• Increased knockback against saberists
• Jedi/Sith only having damage reduction in specific circumstances (not universally)
• Changes to caps on FP drains (especially for blocking)
• Tweaks to Pistol/Bowcaster charged damage
• Ammo changes for the Projectile Rifle
• Adjustments to projectile speeds

There's more but those are the main points of interest for gameplay changes. Additionally, what's listed in the final changelog that will be included with the open beta is not the extent of what's being looked at. This is just what's been fully agreed on, vetted, and implemented.

I'm also hoping that more transparency on what's being worked on as well as why will help improve community relations in the long run and make it easier for both those working on the mod as well as those waiting for new toys/features/etc. On that note, for those still wondering about the saber system changes, we're still working on figuring out the details since those aren't purely server-side adjustments. Stay tuned for more info!

 

[marksisms]

Do you like new DOTF?

I've written why several times, but there is the very long version.

Basically if I am competing with play time for the map, I run into the same problem with beta tests. I don't have enough people, and enough play time to get enough opinion and non-biased feelings about the map. Everyone is always going to prefer something they are familiar with over something new, even if that something new could be better. Especially if that something is ingrained in their head for 10 years. I am trying to work on the map as much as possible to improve it before I leave the team again. I cannot do that if everyone just goes back to playing the same old same old again. And like I said there, DOTF is not coming back for minimum 4 months after major changes are done to this version of DOTF. Which happened with this patch and reset the timer again. And there will be at least one more patch with major changes to the side routes yet again in the future. You can live with it, and help contribute to development for a bit, and give me feedback rather than just saying give old map pls thx. If people just tell me to bring the old one back, and don't tell me why they dislike the new one (like you just did), I gain nothing, you gain nothing, and movie battles gains nothing.

Move forward not backward.

So what happens to the dozens of people complaining about new DOTF not making sense? CW was removed and people were miffed, but everyone rolled with it. The redesign is gorgeous, no one denies that, but it's disfunctional and uncomfortable to play. Gen ended up somehow seemingly downgraded in design quality and the throne obj is broken. How the hell can Rebs still capture the obj with Imps inside the area of effect? That's the first time I've seen that happening in that kind of game mode. Do I even have to comment on the huge starship right in the middle of Hang? And yeah, I know it was in the movie, but it was definitely not that huge. Then you take away the balcony, arguably one of the most entertaining areas to play. Like I said, the new mapping is just awkward, and I really don't think people will ever be satisfied with anything other than old, classic DOTF because that's what they've known for years.
And DOTF isn't even the only problem. You made a gorgeous, fun to play map with Stark Base, and then you go ahead and add damage the further you head onto the bridge. What's the point of the bridge even existing if people can't duel or play on it. I highly doubt timewasters would even be succesful on it.

My point still stands. If this is a mod made by the players for the players, how come 90% of the community never gets what it wants? I understand your enthusiasm with wanting to show off your work, but you also have to understand that sometimes people just won't like it. Forcing me to play on maps I just don't enjoy won't make me eventually like them, it will eventually make me stop playing altogether. It just seems that there's this type of logic in the dev's minds that this should be a mod that they should enjoy playing, when in fact, according to everything you're making this mod out to be, it should be something enjoyed by everyone.
Change isn't always progress.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

1) Catwalk was removed for good reason. Not going to have that debate again.
2) Dysfunctional and uncomfortable? Please. Definitely not.
2) Generator didn't change that much outside of making walkways thinner. That didn't affect the large majority of how other classes use that area. It basically affected only 1 or 2, and did so in the direction intended. I would like to improve the area a bit though.
3) The OBJ is a little buggy, yes, and that is being worked on. I was hoping to have a coder work on it before this last patch but never happened.
4) Starship was definitely bigger in the movie. The royal starship in the movie was 76 meters long. According to 3dsmax the DOTF starship is 31.97 meters long. So not even half the size of the movie one.
5) Balcony was definitely a pretty good area to play, but not that good and was generally a bandaid style addition just to add another route into throne as quickly as possible.
6) The damaging on bridge wouldn't have been added if it wasn't a problem. And I am also not the one who added it.
7) Definitely 90% of the community doesn't want old dotf back. Even on the original non updated DOTF over 40% of people preferred the new DOTF in the forum poll. And I imagine that number has increased since with all of the changes. There were less people who didn't like the new map (37%) than liked the new map (40%). The rest were undecided. You might be in an echo chamber if you think 90% of the community hates the new DOTF.

You are right though, change isn't always progress. However this is not that case whether you like it or not. A large majority of the map was improved over the old version, and a minority of the map was worsened. Time to fix up the bad.

 

[marksisms]

1) Catwalk was removed for good reason. Not going to have that debate again.
2) Dysfunctional and uncomfortable? Please. Definitely not.
2) Generator didn't change that much outside of making walkways thinner. That didn't affect the large majority of how other classes use that area. It basically affected only 1 or 2, and did so in the direction intended. I would like to improve the area a bit though.
3) The OBJ is a little buggy, yes, and that is being worked on. I was hoping to have a coder work on it before this last patch but never happened.
4) Starship was definitely bigger in the movie. The royal starship in the movie was 76 meters long. According to 3dsmax the DOTF starship is 31.97 meters long. So not even half the size of the movie one.
5) Balcony was definitely a pretty good area to play, but not that good and was generally a bandaid style addition just to add another route into throne as quickly as possible.
6) The damaging on bridge wouldn't have been added if it wasn't a problem. And I am also not the one who added it.
7) Definitely 90% of the community doesn't want old dotf back. Even on the original non updated DOTF over 40% of people preferred the new DOTF in the forum poll. And I imagine that number has increased since with all of the changes. There were less people who didn't like the new map than liked the new map. The rest were undecided. You might be in an echo chamber if you think 90% of the community hates the new DOTF.

You are right though, change isn't always progress. However this is not that case whether you like it or not. A large majority of the map was improved over the old version, and a minority of the map was worsened. Time to fix up the bad.

Do you really think people will bother talking to the devs when it feels like talking to a wall? Because I'm already tired of this conversation for that exact reason. I play give or take about 6 hours broken down through the day, mostly every day, and I have not met one person who actually liked playing new DOTF. The forums represent maybe half of the people who actually play. I hadn't bothered to even look up the forums until a few months ago and I've been playing for 2 years.

You can keep on adding whatever you like to the mod, and you can eventually see your active users go down. That new movie afterglow won't last long and I'm sure you know it. I suppose if you actually gave players the time of day and valued their opinions we could get somewhere but it seems that being stuck up is one of the things some devs do best.

On the matter of the fugly huge starship in the middle of hang, counting meters is just a waste of time since I doubt hang is nearly as big as the movie one, let's not be ridiculous on that. It's ugly, it's misplaced and it's annoying. The little fighters on the side are pretty nice though.

But yeah, whatever. Do whatever you want, it's not like the opinions of us petty mortals even matter, lol.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I suppose if you actually gave players the time of day and valued their opinions we could get somewhere but it seems that being stuck up is one of the things some devs do best.

The last 3 patches to the maps were totally not in response to feedback. But apparently that matters for squat.

But yeah, whatever. Do whatever you want, it's not like the opinions of us petty mortals even matter, lol.

Again I totally could have just left it as is on the initial release and not changed anything at all based on feedback, but you can continue being a shining example of how toxic, en the community is. I have always listened to feedback and acted accordingly. I literally said old dotf can come back, just not yet. But nooooo not good enough.

If dotf is such a deal breaker, you're more than welcome to leave now and come back when the old one returns. That is your choice.

 

[marksisms]

The last 3 patches to the maps were totally not in response to feedback. But apparently that matters for squat.



Again I totally could have just left it as is on the initial release and not changed anything at all based on feedback, but you can continue being a shining example of how toxic the community is. I have always listened to feedback and acted accordingly.

Toxic because I don't worship everything you do? Please.
Dozens of people have been fighting you over new DOTF (and bringing old DOTF back) since NOVEMBER. So honestly, all of this seems like you throwing a tantrum and screaming "THEY DONT LIKE MY NEW MAP MEH MEH" and just punishing us for not praising you.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

The fuck does that have to do with worshipping me. You said I don't listen to the community and don't do things based on feedback. I said old dotf can come back, just not yet while I work on things. I have made changes to that map in response to community feedback. Both of those are exactly opposite of what you said I do. How the hell does that have anything to do with throwing a tantrum. I am just telling you how it is and you refuse to believe it.

 

[marksisms]

Refusing to bring back an older map just because people won't bother with yours IS you throwing a tantrum. If that was a legit problem, there would never be any updates on anything, because people wouldn't bother testing them. No one told you to remove your map from the game, no one even cares. People just want what they like, not what you are trying to force them to like.

You said old DOTF MIGHT come back, and even after a while it's unlikely.
Just bring it back. If there are people who like your version (and according to you, there's plenty), let those people play it, and let the toxic rest of us return to the old one. I honestly don't understand why this is such a hard concept for you to grasp after months of dozens of different people trying to explain it to you.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Refusing to bring back an older map just because people won't bother with yours IS you throwing a tantrum

No, I gave full reasoning and logic as to why I (and the rest of the team for that matter agreeing with it) made the decision here. Do you like new DOTF? Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't mean its because I am throwing a tantrum.

 

[marksisms]

That is the thread I've been basing my arguments on during this entire conversation. And it proves that it's you throwing a tantrum.
Your 'full reasoning and logic' is that people wouldn't bother with your map if old dotf existed. It's been what, nearly 5 months? People know about your map now. Bring the old one back and let people CHOOSE where they want to play.
...literally talking to a brick wall right now.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

You're missing the point of what I said entirely in that thread and boiling it down to a generalization to suit your argument. So... I am done here.

 

[marksisms]

Like I (and a bunch of people on that thread) repeatedly said, b-r-i-c-k w-a-l-l.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

You guys should go into comedy

 

[Jediknight Fou]

No more flinch

Finally!

@marksisms and @MaceMadunusus
I prefer new Dotf.
I miss catwalk and the balcony, but since the starfighters are filling the hangar Im actually satisfied.
Still it should not be so hard to add the old dotf, I remember ppl can nominate commtower and classic commtower, so why not old dotf?
Ah a simple map rotation on servers would be great so at least you dont get bored to death with 24/7 maps, we all know how inflexible the community is.

One thing I personally would love to see are more maps with more floors like classic jeditemple.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Comm tower classic, jedi temple classic, tantive classic, etc were all not immediately added after their respective changes and there was no uproar. The same policy that applied then, applies now. But somehow now its criticized as being a tantrum throwing move by ignorant community members even though we have always done this process. There are also some maps we never added a classic version back for, because the new one surpassed the old.

There is nothing hard about adding the old dotf back. This is just the process we have always done, and will continue to do for map revamps.

Edit: I would also like to note, this plan went back almost 9 years ago back when I only had the initial main hallway somewhat finished. Where Acidus was still a part of the team and was vehemently against the idea of redoing and replacing DOTF. This whole idea or process isn't something new. Has been the plan for years, and has been the case on other level revamps.

 

[Onysfx]

@MaceMadunusus

As I said before and I'll say again, myself and many others I've asked really like the side corridor change and the main hallway. More spacious and more cover which was lacking in those areas. The T junction I feel though is a little confusing and odd to navigate. I prefer the old t junction myself, it was a simple route and everyone KNEW where to go. Also, there is rarely any combat at all in the replacements for side. They look amazing visually, but gameplay, eh.

Same with throne, the new throne room looks way better aesthetically, but I feel its so open and very hard to defend, where as the old throne, you had 3 ways to get to throne, but you still had to get through the door, so all the paths met up in the same place. With the additional of balcony there was a back way, which made defending gen worthwhile. WIth defense just outside throne and the right corridor, you could mount a decent defense, and it was small enough for fun firefights.

But now I feel there's just so many ways to get to throne and it's so open, it's just not as concentrated and epic as it used to be. That's just my opinion of course.

Perhaps I should have mentioned all of this earlier in testing, but it's only when you play on public servers you really notice the changes.

 

[Preston]

Said it once but I'll say it again that I believe new DOTF looks much better, plays much worse.

 

[noel]

Tbf @marksisms, you can't really blame Defiant for not listening to 'half' of the community if they don't voice their opinions on the forums

I get annoyed at this with EU Sabering too because a lot of top tiers refuse to play betas/don't give them a chance and then make some half a second opinion. Then we end up with things the community don't want and the inevitable complaining happens

It's like Defiant said, if you want your opinion to be counted you need to voice it publicly, so maybe if you got all those people who were complaining about new DOTF to come to the forums and express their opinion constructively you might find things would change to the majority's voice instead of those who bother themselves to post on the forums

Its the same with sabering, if good players would tell any of the developers/post on the forums what they wanted then it would happen cos atm its like me sev stassin and achilles who are playing betas and voicing our opinions to tempest

 

[Onysfx]

Tbf @marksisms, you can't really blame Defiant for not listening to 'half' of the community if they don't voice their opinions on the forums

I get annoyed at this with EU Sabering too because a lot of top tiers refuse to play betas/don't give them a chance and then make some half a second opinion. Then we end up with things the community don't want and the inevitable complaining happens

It's like Defiant said, if you want your opinion to be counted you need to voice it publicly, so maybe if you got all those people who were complaining about new DOTF to come to the forums and express their opinion constructively you might find things would change to the majority's voice instead of those who bother themselves to post on the forums

Its the same with sabering, if good players would tell any of the developers/post on the forums what they wanted then it would happen cos atm its like me sev stassin and achilles who are playing betas and voicing our opinions to tempest

EXACTLY. That's what I tell them but they don't want to even consider joining the beta team .

 

[marksisms]

Tbf @marksisms, you can't really blame Defiant for not listening to 'half' of the community if they don't voice their opinions on the forums

I get annoyed at this with EU Sabering too because a lot of top tiers refuse to play betas/don't give them a chance and then make some half a second opinion. Then we end up with things the community don't want and the inevitable complaining happens

It's like Defiant said, if you want your opinion to be counted you need to voice it publicly, so maybe if you got all those people who were complaining about new DOTF to come to the forums and express their opinion constructively you might find things would change to the majority's voice instead of those who bother themselves to post on the forums

Its the same with sabering, if good players would tell any of the developers/post on the forums what they wanted then it would happen cos atm its like me sev stassin and achilles who are playing betas and voicing our opinions to tempest

Like I said, no one wants to confront devs because 99,9999999999% of the time, talking to them feels like talking to a wall. Look at this entire thread, and look at Do you like New DOTF? — there's barely any respect for player opinions when a dev doesn't like them. Mace is boasting about listening to the players, but he just picks and chooses which opinions work for him. That's not listening, and that's why no one bothers with forums.

 

[Chocorope]

MaceMadunusus
Tempest

I've got a minor suggestion that might go along with what you guys seem to be heading for.

I was listening to E3 yesterday and noticed that Wookies fire green bolts with their Bowcasters, simple as that.

I think it would be well welcomed by the community as well contributing to make Wookies more unique & standing more apart ( Beside Melee Stuff. )

I also think it would be a nice wink toward olders JK Games.


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There's also a scene Sidious disarm Yoda with a powerful force lightning blow, could it be implemented? It sounds interesting for force whores like Rosh+ and such.

L3 & P3 on Force focus without enemy holding block, swing blocking, low on BP and or FP?

It look and sound interesting for force whores since they're often out of option agaisnt sabers.

Greenbolts on bowcasters would be a great add-on to the fresh vibe I get from the changes you guys are heading for, while the second would be a great add-on to ForceWhores!

Adding an whole new level of deept to this gameplay, skills, make it more viable, tempting, accesible for people and.. lets be honest, It look cool hf.

If a Sith is good enough at dodging sabers, he could jump around and make opponent loose enough focus, fp and bp to land a Force Disarm, then shock it to death.