Tempest's Saber Build

[Mara]

I couldn't find any V1 dueling videos.

I assume it's this version you were looking for?

 

[Def!led]

Tempest allowed me to try out his current beta and I gotta say it is a massive improvement over what public currently has. The reintroduction of halfswing and nudge allow duels to flow better and allows you to build up momentum through the duel (something that public currently lacks). I won't go into too much detail on the numbers such as modifiers because Tempest could always change them. Another good thing is specials don't double hit or phantom hit like they do currently in public, this means if someone does a blue lunge you can now hit then from behind without being knocked back 10 feet.

Tempest also brought back saber blocking, if you block the opponents swing with your lightsaber (not camera) you take reduced damage. It's not a perfect alternative to the current PB system, but it does allow you to defend against swings without getting bodyhit just because you miss a PB (something that is very arbitrary in the current system). Tempest mentioned making nudge only saber vs saber so that in open jedi/sith can't cheese gunners by walking up and initiating the animation, which is something that players exploited back in the day.

I could probably go into more detail but I haven't tested everything. I think I got most of the important changes in here, and I don't want to post stuff from the changelog I haven't tried out because who knows if it's been changed since that was made. All I gotta say is Tempest's current beta is a big improvement over what we currently have in public and that's the right path we should be taking. Basically, to sell this beta to the public I would say that I don't want to duel again on public after trying out what Tempest has in the beta build.

@Defiant @Tempest

 

[Hessu]

Tempest allowed me to try out his current beta and I gotta say it is a massive improvement over what public currently has. The reintroduction of halfswing and nudge allow duels to flow better and allows you to build up momentum through the duel (something that public currently lacks). I won't go into too much detail on the numbers such as modifiers because Tempest could always change them. Another good thing is specials don't double hit or phantom hit like they do currently in public, this means if someone does a blue lunge you can now hit then from behind without being knocked back 10 feet.

Tempest also brought back saber blocking, if you block the opponents swing with your lightsaber (not camera) you take reduced damage. It's not a perfect alternative to the current PB system, but it does allow you to defend against swings without getting bodyhit just because you miss a PB (something that is very arbitrary in the current system). Tempest mentioned making nudge only saber vs saber so that in open jedi/sith can't cheese gunners by walking up and initiating the animation, which is something that players exploited back in the day.

I could probably go into more detail but I haven't tested everything. I think I got most of the important changes in here, and I don't want to post stuff from the changelog I haven't tried out because who knows if it's been changed since that was made. All I gotta say is Tempest's current beta is a big improvement over what we currently have in public and that's the right path we should be taking. Basically, to sell this beta to the public I would say that I don't want to duel again on public after trying out what Tempest has in the beta build.

@Defiant @Tempest

So saber blocking replaced pb?
EDIT: its still there

 

[Stassin]

Tempest allowed me to try out his current beta and I gotta say it is a massive improvement over what public currently has. The reintroduction of halfswing and nudge allow duels to flow better and allows you to build up momentum through the duel (something that public currently lacks). I won't go into too much detail on the numbers such as modifiers because Tempest could always change them. Another good thing is specials don't double hit or phantom hit like they do currently in public, this means if someone does a blue lunge you can now hit then from behind without being knocked back 10 feet.

Tempest also brought back saber blocking, if you block the opponents swing with your lightsaber (not camera) you take reduced damage. It's not a perfect alternative to the current PB system, but it does allow you to defend against swings without getting bodyhit just because you miss a PB (something that is very arbitrary in the current system). Tempest mentioned making nudge only saber vs saber so that in open jedi/sith can't cheese gunners by walking up and initiating the animation, which is something that players exploited back in the day.

I could probably go into more detail but I haven't tested everything. I think I got most of the important changes in here, and I don't want to post stuff from the changelog I haven't tried out because who knows if it's been changed since that was made. All I gotta say is Tempest's current beta is a big improvement over what we currently have in public and that's the right path we should be taking. Basically, to sell this beta to the public I would say that I don't want to duel again on public after trying out what Tempest has in the beta build.

@Defiant @Tempest

The things you mentioned are signifcant improvements indeed, but i'd rather he holds off on at least perks, because the perks he's reintroducing, even if better distributed than the ones in v1.4, are still mostly just as bad (invisible dmg buffs/nerfs, focused on niche situations like PB counters, all the perks are of that order, the only interesting one is swing chain count being reset on halfswings). I also severely dislike other rather invisible BP multipliers such as on nudged swings or saber/saber collisions (known as NB - normal blocks), also on parries, also on first swings. Also don't like bringing back ACM the way it was in v1.4, i think it's been more than proven by a decent chunk of feedback that there's way better to do; having it be partially gained before a certain threshold like he's doing, is indeed an improvement over v1.4 because it's better balanced, but the idea itself of ACM being like that is simply bad and induces very boring gameplay dynamics, especially when there's more invisible things like it being gained partially but not lost by the defender on NBs.

Also don't like BP drains on top of FP drains for EVERY special move, the idea isn't bad but it should be distributed differently. Also don't like the idea of having nudge only for saber vs saber (reminds me of the "nudgetoggle" idea tested in v1.4.3 LOL), but that's pending other tweaks like higher FP drains vs guns. Having yellow's fast halfswing on A direction is good but there's no reason why all other styles shouldn't also have it, and why the other different halfswings from pre-v1.4 shouldn't also be brought back. Other than that, i think the slowed chaining on red style is pretty cool, potentially on purple too, though i don't like it on blue (blue should just have its old behaviour from pre-v1.4), but i understand that's the only way to balance blue properly given the current interrupt mechanics, which are bad anyways.

Long story short: tempest's build is an improved v1.4.9 with a few pre-v1.4 elements added in. Most importantly, it's a better balanced build across saber styles and mechanics compared to current public, which seems rather needed at the moment. On the other hand it doesn't really learn from most design mistakes and feedback from all builds from v1.1 to current public, so i'm convinced there's much better to do in order to make the saber system far more enjoyable for all types of players.

 

[noel]

please
dont
add
neutral
block

please
dont
add
yellow
a
halfswing

sincerely,

every active player in EU


edit: can we just have 1.4.9 but put the base damage up and nerf fast styles??? i dont see how that wouldnt work

 

[Def!led]

please
dont
add
neutral
block

please
dont
add
yellow
a
halfswing

sincerely,

every active player in EU


edit: can we just have 1.4.9 but put the base damage up and nerf fast styles??? i dont see how that wouldnt work

More constructive feedback from a beta tester? Give reasons as to why you don't want them would be a nice start to a good discussion.

 

[noel]

More constructive feedback from a beta tester? Give reasons as to why you don't want them would be a nice start to a good discussion.

I think ive made 5000 posts about why I dont want them and I've explained it to Tempest every time, so don't check me

A half swing - nullifies the usage of every other swing direction, everyone spams it and it quickly becomes boring, A half swing + yaw = aids

NB - just as achillies said, Mb2's movement is way to quick and spazzy for this to be a reliable system, it literally doesn't work in the same skill based way pb'ing does. and i've played several betas with it, I adhered to tempest's advice of 'swinging at their body not their saber' or 'getting around their saber' and it isn't consistent, don't say its l2p because achilles said the same thing, house said the same thing, everyone that tried that beta did pretty much (and thus it got removed)

 

[Def!led]

Duelists yaw regardless of there being A halfswing. If anything it's a very predictable direction to swing from so it should be easy to PB right? The reason for it is to allow you to keep momentum while on the attack against defensive turtle players that the current meta pushes.

As for "NB" or old block, there will still be the current PB, NB is added so that every hit isn't a body hit just because you missed the arbitrary PB zones. It makes sense that if the enemy attack hits YOUR saber and not YOUR body, it should 100% not be a body hit and should nullify some of the damage. Nothing lazy about it, it just makes sense.

 

[SeV]

Let me just quickly put to rest the debate about whether or not NB or saber block is a valid mechanic or detail to have in the game.

First, the alternative to having saber interaction is having 0 saber interaction. This means that hitting a lightsaber produces the same effect as hitting someone on their body. Hitting the tip of someone's lightsaber would count as a bodyhit.

The second option which is what I am advocating for, and what I think makes far more sense, is having the lightsaber matter, having it do something. Having it be a physical object instead of just a pass through or an extension of the body. (Lightsabers being an extension of someone's body sounds like the beginnings of a perverted joke).

It essentially boils down to how much it should matter and what it should do. The conservative estimate that I've put out numerous times is that an attack hitting a lightsaber should deal about 10-20% less damage. We also had, perhaps even a year or two ago now on the beta, talks about what kind of ACM interactions should occur and it was suggested that saber block should interfere with AC gains, making bodyhits more valuable and increasing the skill level of dueling by making AIMING important for attacking aswell as defending, and also making the positioning of your lightsaber via movement important again. For example, back in the old patches without aimed PB, one important combination for yellow was the movement keys of S+A and S+D in order to manipulate your lightsaber blade to move infront of someones attack.

I think that only good things can come from adding saber block. More finesse because you have more control over your lightsaber, and it actually matters where you put it, hold it, and what stance you're in, and where you're aiming. Movement matters more aswell, because attacks from far away are further reduced in efficiency by having saber blocks be more likely, in addition to PBs being easier to hit. This makes DISTANCE a more important mechanic again, meaning it enables people with good footwork to outmaneuver slow moving duelists. Again, adding more finesse to footwork aswell as attacking. I fail to see how it can be a bad thing.

I think newer people from 1.3 etc like noel, have problems with saber block because they find it hard to understand the subtle things that it adds, and because they are not used to maneuvering their lightsabers using the movement keys and aiming with the mouse in specific ways. Then there is also the fact that we had several beta tests where tempest decided to put a ridiculous 50% dmg reduction on saber blocks where I kept saying it should be 10% to 20% at max. The specific numbers are not important, the main thing is that all of the newer players were having trouble killing people because they did not aim below the saber. I know achilles was throwing a spastic fit because he was unable to understand this mechanic. So that double wombo combo of not really getting saber block the same way someone from the pre aimed PB era would, combined with bad numbers on bad beta tests using buggy patches in the past, has probably created this perception that someone things it's better to have the lightsaber be a useless prop rather than an actual thing in dueling.

But it really seems to me to be the only logical move, to make lightsabers their own object, and attach some value to it rather than having the tip of a lightsaber = bodyhit. You know, bodyhits should hurt, they should matter. Having lightsabers =/= bodyhits will make BODYHITS matter more aswell, as it will increase their value. A good aggressive player versus a noob will now be much better at burning down someone's BP, because they can get past the enemy lightsaber more, whereas the noob might be able to combo spam but they aren't aiming and moving with the proper finesse.

Don't you see how this is insanely more elegant than what we currently have? Don't you see how much it can potentially contribute to finesse, skill ceiling and dueling feeling like actually LIGHTSABER dueling where you are manipulating your lightsaber like a jedi or sith, and not just playing a button mashing simulator like a tekken or street fighter game. Part of what is missing from modern dueling is elegance and finesse, of both footwork and aiming your lightsaber.

 

[Tylenol]

Edit: irrelevant comment (bit like me ha ha self deprecating humour)

 

[Def!led]

Because Star Wars is a franchise that's supposed to make sense

We're talking about from a balance perspective, not Star Wars itself. This comment is extremely out of context and derailing the topic at hand.

Then there is also the fact that we had several beta tests where tempest decided to put a ridiculous 50% dmg reduction on saber blocks where I kept saying it should be 10% to 20% at max. The specific numbers are not important, the main thing is that all of the newer players were having trouble killing people because they did not aim below the saber.

From the changelog​

Swings that are saber-blocked have a 0.75x damage multiplier. Special moves that only hit the saber have a 0.75x multiplier.
Saber-blocked strikes do not drain ACC from the defender but still allow for building ACC (only partial) for the attacker.

 

[Tylenol]

We're talking about from a balance perspective, not Star Wars itself. This comment is extremely out of context and derailing the topic at hand.

lol I know, I even tried to edit my comment before someone would post this. Shame we can't delete posts, would save alot of hassle

 

[SeV]

We're talking about from a balance perspective, not Star Wars itself. This comment is extremely out of context and derailing the topic at hand.

From the changelog​

Swings that are saber-blocked have a 0.75x damage multiplier. Special moves that only hit the saber have a 0.75x multiplier.
Saber-blocked strikes do not drain ACC from the defender but still allow for building ACC (only partial) for the attacker.

Yeah I know. But noel and other people that dislike NB have attended beta tests in the past where tempest had it at 50% or more. I think 25% is reasonable enough. It shouldn't be a get out of jail free card, but neither should the gains be neglect-able. Also just another quickie reiteration of a thing I've stated in the past many times on beta tests. If the NB/saber block increases dueling time, just adjust the over all multiplier up slightly to compensate. Seems self-evident, but I know that some people raised objections in the past that saber block would slow duels down, when in fact that could easily be fixed. You can decide the pacing of a duel with number adjustments.

 

[Tempest]

Also would like to add that I'm fairly sure there were never any tests done with both the saber blocking and nudge in together. This was a big mistake since they are required to counter-balance each other. Saber blocking on its own is extremely annoying and can be overbearing (which is what earned all the complaints; different damage was tried and I believe the last iteration from that time was 0.80x) but nudge immediately removes this as a possibility (even though you can still nudge a swing and end up swinging into their saber if you do it unwisely). Keeping PB as the main defense mechanic solves the issue of how saber blocking worked in the past while having some small reduced damage (0.75x atm in testing) without removing ACC from the defender (so attacker's can't just spam at max/bad ranges) and still allowing the attacker to build momentum (ACC still builds up but only partially, that way, again, it isn't as beneficial to just love tap someone at max range compared to actually bypassing their defense). Nudge is also always weaker than a normal full swing, both in terms of damage as well as ACC gain so that it doesn't fall into the same issues as when it was last brought back into public release (where it was automatically the best way to attack someone). It functions as a tool to create an opening when someone is being overly passive rather than being an automatic defense bypass for max damage/rewards. The A halfswing is also on par with consecutives (does same damage and same ACC gain no matter what). If you try to spam it vs someone who isn't just throwing a bunch of swings out, it can backfire quickly.

For reference, there's been only a very small handful of duels that I've done where NB/saber blocking on its own made any significant differences and that was basically 100% copying the old dueling style (looking very far down) while also making basically 0 timing/footwork errors (basically had to parry/not get interrupted even once or it was a snowball).

 

[noel]

from a fun and balance perspective i still think they're both bad ideas. Sev, you said it yourself. 1.5 may have been punishing and brutal, but it isn't FUN.

Having to look at the floor every time you swing to hit 'under' someone's saber, or whatever tactic you can somehow manage to invent which allows you to get past Nb, doesn't create fun gameplay imo. We need to have a focus on individuality, realistic and attainable skill based gameplay and leave as little as we can to chance or obscurity. So I agree on most things that youve said (Sev) about the next build, with regard to 1.1x damage on certain swings and weird niche mechanics, but I really think NB could possibly kill the game, as I know that the dwindling community we have left is either already against it, or will not have the patience to learn how to use it

A half swing is predictable @defiled but also just pointless. I don't think any swing should have priority over any others (like public), being able to use a one trick pony swing like A half swings will pretty much ruin lower skill level fights, and yes everyone can yaw, but theres a huge difference between yawing a blue swing (which a half swing is almost as fast as) and a yellow swing. I really hope people have dropped this 'im an absolute reaction God' mentality and will accept that it's simply unreactable (predictable yes but not reactable) if done with yaw.

Even the CURRENT swings (Im thinking of WA) are VERY hard to react to with yaw, and I think even the best pb'er in Mb2 mister pelmenu lauks has complained about the WA swing being too quick before. Adding A half swing is just going to make this worse


edit: and nudge is the same, no one can react to that shit please stop acting like people can and remove it, it takes no skill to nudge, it takes a lot of skill to pb

 

[Stassin]

Yeah I know. But noel and other people that dislike NB have attended beta tests in the past where tempest had it at 50% or more. I think 25% is reasonable enough. It shouldn't be a get out of jail free card, but neither should the gains be neglect-able. Also just another quickie reiteration of a thing I've stated in the past many times on beta tests. If the NB/saber block increases dueling time, just adjust the over all multiplier up slightly to compensate. Seems self-evident, but I know that some people raised objections in the past that saber block would slow duels down, when in fact that could easily be fixed. You can decide the pacing of a duel with number adjustments.

Having an arbitrary dmg multiplier on it is just equivalent to adding another invisible element in a system already full of them. It seems tempest had done some testing with saber blocking with larger hitboxes, but with the usual hitboxes it's something that hardly happens at all except when you are at a distance. It should simply behave like a PB and negate all dmg.

 

[Tempest]

Having to look at the floor every time you swing to hit 'under' someone's saber, or whatever tactic you can somehow manage to invent which allows you to get past Nb, doesn't create fun gameplay imo. We need to have a focus on individuality, realistic and attainable skill based gameplay and leave as little as we can to chance or obscurity.

Most of the gameplay at close range is left up to chance unless the person you're fighting is very predictable (you can't on-reaction PB 3+ different possible attacks from both sides on purpose) so unless we're going back to where you basically can only go from one side to the other and across the horizontal axis (which I'm not super opposed to or anything), that's pretty much always going to be a thing.

So I agree on most things that youve said (Sev) about the next build, with regard to 1.1x damage on certain swings and weird niche mechanics, but I really think NB could possibly kill the game, as I know that the dwindling community we have left is either already against it, or will not have the patience to learn how to use it

You know what's killing the game? Having stuff like an entire combo doing the same damage as 1 counter swing. That can't change without something like NB though because then it's just too easy to zerg someone down (even the more heavily limited chaining suffered from this but to a smaller degree). Another thing (which happened quite often in the tourney) which is extremely stupid: having two people just stare at each other because it's so much better to just wait for the other person to attack (unless you're going to just super yaw your first swings, which again, is such fun and exciting gameplay).

A half swing is predictable @defiled but also just pointless. I don't think any swing should have priority over any others (like public), being able to use a one trick pony swing like A half swings will pretty much ruin lower skill level fights, and yes everyone can yaw, but theres a huge difference between yawing a blue swing (which a half swing is almost as fast as) and a yellow swing. I really hope people have dropped this 'im an absolute reaction God' mentality and will accept that it's simply unreactable (predictable yes but not reactable) if done with yaw.

It doesn't have higher priority. It can still be interrupted. It's worse damage than the counter swings you can do against it. In current dueling, yawing diagonals is higher priority than everything (mostly because of derpy PB zones and how stupid stuff like same side diagonals are in general). The dumb D yaw counters might overtake this in some circumstances but the most annoying thing is WA yawed openers IMO.

Even the CURRENT swings (Im thinking of WA) are VERY hard to react to with yaw, and I think even the best pb'er in Mb2 mister pelmenu lauks has complained about the WA swing being too quick before. Adding A half swing is just going to make this worse

You can actually make your swings miss more if you try to yaw the A halfswing because it has less wind-up (have had this happen quite a bit myself). It's not infallible by any means.

edit: and nudge is the same, no one can react to that shit please stop acting like people can and remove it, it takes no skill to nudge, it takes a lot of skill to pb

That's why it's not as good as a normal swing you'd do. It also takes no skill to just backpedal/wait for the other person to attack so you can counter them for 0 risk and upwards of 3x the damage they're doing to you. It's just evening out attacking/defending in terms of risk vs reward.

 

[SeV]

Having an arbitrary dmg multiplier on it is just equivalent to adding another invisible element in a system already full of them. It seems tempest had done some testing with saber blocking with larger hitboxes, but with the usual hitboxes it's something that hardly happens at all except when you are at a distance. It should simply behave like a PB and negate all dmg.

It is not arbitary. It is the multiplier that decides what damage a swing should do if it hits someones saber as opposed to their body and it's quite easy to see that having saber block as an all round defense in addition to normal PB is too much defensive layering, and such extreme defensive layering would require attacks to be extremely strong and spiky/chunky, or BP regen to be almost non-existent. You've been down this trail before with stupidly low FP regen in open, and huge spiky damage for the sake of 'timing' in some of the dueling builds you've created. Or the extreme 50% bodyhit on parries in 1.4.3. Having huge numbers as opposed to more measured numbers is not any less 'arbitrary'.

Saber block is a far better 'range' solution than adding thresholds like tempest tried in the past, and he is right to mention nudge as a pair to it. Coupling it with the frankly superior mechanic of aimed Perfect blocks allows both to complement each other rather than working against each other or having one over the other.

@noel I don't think everything should be reactable. It's extremely important to have dynamic elements in dueling such as different swing speeds, otherwise it quickly grows stale and monotonous. Having different tools like fast halfswings, slow halfswings, spins, yawing, special attacks etc, means that you can use them to change the pace of a duel and attempt to catch your opponent unawares, to change the pace of the duel and the meta. Switching styles also does this, which is why I think it should be an option.

EDIT: And as tempest said, the halfswing vs full combo stuff and staring at each other because it is so fucking disadvantageous to attack rather than react? Yep, fully agree. A weakened nudge + saber block combo will really help alleviate so many problems that these modern dueling systems suffer from.

 

[Def!led]

Having to look at the floor every time you swing to hit 'under' someone's saber, or whatever tactic you can somehow manage to invent which allows you to get past Nb, doesn't create fun gameplay imo. We need to have a focus on individuality, realistic and attainable skill based gameplay and leave as little as we can to chance or obscurity.

You talk about individuality but you want to be conservative and keep everything you currently have, there is NO individuality in the current build. You never got to witness individuality as I have over the years. That is all gone in the current meta/build.

A half swing is predictable @defiled but also just pointless. I don't think any swing should have priority over any others (like public), being able to use a one trick pony swing like A half swings will pretty much ruin lower skill level fights, and yes everyone can yaw, but theres a huge difference between yawing a blue swing (which a half swing is almost as fast as) and a yellow swing. I really hope people have dropped this 'im an absolute reaction God' mentality and will accept that it's simply unreactable (predictable yes but not reactable) if done with yaw.

Even the CURRENT swings (Im thinking of WA) are VERY hard to react to with yaw, and I think even the best pb'er in Mb2 mister pelmenu lauks has complained about the WA swing being too quick before. Adding A half swing is just going to make this worse

Not sure if you read what Tempest had to say but halfswings aren't as powerful as you're making them out to be. Reread what he posted above.

edit: and nudge is the same, no one can react to that shit please stop acting like people can and remove it, it takes no skill to nudge, it takes a lot of skill to pb

Nudge is considerably slower than it used to once be, you can definitely react to it 100%. Not sure why you're bringing up the skill difference between nudging and PB though as they're completely different mechanics. Nudge is being added to add openings that players currently don't have against heavy defensive style players who just PB any swing you throw at them. You know how boring it is to know in order to obtain a body hit on someone I'm going to have to YAW my ass off in order to make them miss the PB zones. Such a boring meta this current system is and from what I played on Tempest's build, it is really fun and rewarding.

 

[noel]

all of those issues are things that i've already complained about though?

the whole premise of my argument is that its already stupid hard to react to a lot of stuff, and now we're adding even more shit to make it even harder. how is that logical or progressive in anyway?

i really, really am giving up on this mod. I have serious concerns about the direction of the new build and genuinely believe (this is coming from someone who once said mb2 could never die) this could make the game even less popular than it already is. I doubt any of the dwindling EU dueling scene are going to want to learn NB or go back to nudge (Which we literally complained about and had removed btw.) its almost like the dev team are trolling i cant believe it. And if you think all the oldfags are going to come back, you're being naive, and if you think you're going to get an influx of new players, you're being naive

sorry to be cuntish and brutal about it but I really don't think we can afford to listen to the older members of the community for the 5000th time and expect that their ideas and suggestions have somehow changed