Tempest's Saber Build

[kcaz759]

12 pages lol.....

 

[Tempest]

@Tempest Does mblocking (holding it in) help with NB in your beta build? Isn't that the main reason EU used to use mblock stance b19-RCs? That's the only thing it should be used for IMO, maybe giving it a tad bit less incoming damage compared to NB would be acceptable if people really want to see it come back. Not sure how that would hold up balance wise, that's for you to decide.

That was one of the reasons why they did it, yes (also may have been in regards to triggering nudge but not sure about the timeline there). I specifically removed that to prevent being able to flail the mblock animations around to possibly negate damage (would need to lock mblock animation timing to prevent that kind of thing but it's a nuance that can be looked at later).

The issue with the PB counter in the past was that it was so powerful that it discouraged attacking completely.

The fast heavy hitting PB counter is a very nice mechanic and I love it, but it cannot exist without things to bypass defense such as nudge, in my humble opinion.

These kind of contradict each other. If the counter swing, whether it's tied to mblock or not, is doing as much or more damage than outright attacking, it just pigeon-holes a lot of how people can play effectively (and even with nudge, it's just forcing specific strategies to do well by default which isn't really fun overall; more variation = better).

One thing that could be tried, however, is something alongside the same balances with the faster A halfswing for Yellow in my beta build which is treating it the same as consecutives across the board (or even the same kind of adjustment to nudged swings since those kind of counterbalance each other as well). That way it's a tool and not something you can completely rely on (don't want to make it so it's once again basically punishing for trying to attack someone with very little risk; see current public/old behaviors for examples).

 

[noel]

That was one of the reasons why they did it, yes (also may have been in regards to triggering nudge but not sure about the timeline there). I specifically removed that to prevent being able to flail the mblock animations around to possibly negate damage (would need to lock mblock animation timing to prevent that kind of thing but it's a nuance that can be looked at later).



These kind of contradict each other. If the counter swing, whether it's tied to mblock or not, is doing as much or more damage than outright attacking, it just pigeon-holes a lot of how people can play effectively (and even with nudge, it's just forcing specific strategies to do well by default which isn't really fun overall; more variation = better).

One thing that could be tried, however, is something alongside the same balances with the faster A halfswing for Yellow in my beta build which is treating it the same as consecutives across the board (or even the same kind of adjustment to nudged swings since those kind of counterbalance each other as well). That way it's a tool and not something you can completely rely on (don't want to make it so it's once again basically punishing for trying to attack someone with very little risk; see current public/old behaviors for examples).

Theres quite a lot of risk to mb counter, since not many people can actually swingblock the counter and you have to pretty much hold left click for a second in order to get it, you're vulnerable to being slapped. This is a timing me and a lot of others abused in 1.4.9, people who could not swingblock counters or mb counters = dead, especially with the old 3s slap cooldown being so OP in the past

to clarify, if you use the fact that slaps cause a swing to feint, you could swing at someone then just as they would be preparing to mb counter, switched the swing into a slap, you would 9 times out of 10 slap someone who is spamming mbc

 

[Manyo]

If PB'ing is a key feature going forward, any chances to get different blocking stances/animations for each PB zone using the same trigger that's used for the crosshair PB zone indicator? Not as extreme as the mblock stances, just a minor change in saber angle and position.

 

[SeV]

That was one of the reasons why they did it, yes (also may have been in regards to triggering nudge but not sure about the timeline there). I specifically removed that to prevent being able to flail the mblock animations around to possibly negate damage (would need to lock mblock animation timing to prevent that kind of thing but it's a nuance that can be looked at later).



These kind of contradict each other. If the counter swing, whether it's tied to mblock or not, is doing as much or more damage than outright attacking, it just pigeon-holes a lot of how people can play effectively (and even with nudge, it's just forcing specific strategies to do well by default which isn't really fun overall; more variation = better).

One thing that could be tried, however, is something alongside the same balances with the faster A halfswing for Yellow in my beta build which is treating it the same as consecutives across the board (or even the same kind of adjustment to nudged swings since those kind of counterbalance each other as well). That way it's a tool and not something you can completely rely on (don't want to make it so it's once again basically punishing for trying to attack someone with very little risk; see current public/old behaviors for examples).

It is not a contradiction. I just said I enjoyed the feeling of the mblock counter but I think it had more bad ramifications than good, but I wouldn't mind finding a way for it to work. Also, I don't think you will ever win me over with your modified swing speed builds, including the one you've been working on. It simply doesn't feel right.

 

[seth07777777]

iv playing a bit those day.
Still find this not fun. Why does you guys have to put PB at central of evrything baffle me
I rly can't stand this. Hope the next one will be better but i get disapointed eatch time more and more
And yet i can't not playing this game fuck me

 

[Stassin]

If PB'ing is a key feature going forward, any chances to get different blocking stances/animations for each PB zone using the same trigger that's used for the crosshair PB zone indicator? Not as extreme as the mblock stances, just a minor change in saber angle and position.

That would be problematic to add as we don't currently have such animations laying around.

Also, I don't think you will ever win me over with your modified swing speed builds, including the one you've been working on. It simply doesn't feel right.

The idea of it is pretty cool, however it only really suits red & perhaps to some extent purple, and even then it needs to go together with at the very least more lax chaining direction restrictions and higher max swing chain count, because when you have chains that are barely faster than consecutive halfswings, it no longer makes much sense for them to be alot more restrictive than halfswings.

iv playing a bit those day.
Still find this not fun. Why does you guys have to put PB at central of evrything baffle me
I rly can't stand this. Hope the next one will be better but i get disapointed eatch time more and more
And yet i can't not playing this game fuck me

The new PB method can't be removed entirely from the game at this point, but having alternatives amongst which the option to play without it is possible.

 

[seth07777777]

also, beside the duel system, i felt like the community of mb2 is 70% of trollz now.
I miss the old duel system when u had to wait for it. I wish they was a mod kinda like the classic jedi knight 2 when u have to wait ur turn for duel.
Even on Open server i find people playing like dick. Just look at this demo. happens to me a lot more than before
Uploadfiles.io - demo0000.dm_26

 

[Manyo]

That would be problematic to add as we don't currently have such animations laying around.

Oh, i thought the MB2 or OJP team implemented the new saber stances/styles. Or do you just mean way too much work? Which is fair, but maybe worth it when MB2 has at least 20 more years ahead of itself.

 

[Stassin]

Oh, i thought the MB2 or OJP team implemented the new saber stances/styles. Or do you just mean way too much work? Which is fair, but maybe worth it when MB2 has at least 20 more years ahead of itself.

Regarding what you meant with PB indicator, it would be easy to play the current same MBlocking anims in tandem with zones being indicated. Since you were talking about different animations, shorter than the mblocking anims in terms of position/angle change, then such anims don't exist and we have no active animator on the mb2 team currently. If you meant different mblocking anims depending on the saber style, there are a few of those laying around although they need more polishing to be used.

 

[Manyo]

Regarding what you meant with PB indicator, it would be easy to play the current same MBlocking anims in tandem with zones being indicated. Since you were talking about different animations, shorter than the mblocking anims in terms of position/angle change, then such anims don't exist and we have no active animator on the mb2 team currently. If you meant different mblocking anims depending on the saber style, there are a few of those laying around although they need more polishing to be used.

Thanks for clarifying. MBlocking animations should stay visually distinctive from PBlocking, but I wouldn't mind if either has the same animations for all styles and only goes back to the basic blocking animation/stance for each style when no saberist is close to the player. Don't know how appropriate MBlocking animations would look for what i proposed, if you got different sets of MBlock animations laying around.

 

[Karus]

Let me just quickly put to rest the debate about whether or not NB or saber block is a valid mechanic or detail to have in the game.

First, the alternative to having saber interaction is having 0 saber interaction. This means that hitting a lightsaber produces the same effect as hitting someone on their body. Hitting the tip of someone's lightsaber would count as a bodyhit.

The second option which is what I am advocating for, and what I think makes far more sense, is having the lightsaber matter, having it do something. Having it be a physical object instead of just a pass through or an extension of the body. (Lightsabers being an extension of someone's body sounds like the beginnings of a perverted joke).

It essentially boils down to how much it should matter and what it should do. The conservative estimate that I've put out numerous times is that an attack hitting a lightsaber should deal about 10-20% less damage. We also had, perhaps even a year or two ago now on the beta, talks about what kind of ACM interactions should occur and it was suggested that saber block should interfere with AC gains, making bodyhits more valuable and increasing the skill level of dueling by making AIMING important for attacking aswell as defending, and also making the positioning of your lightsaber via movement important again. For example, back in the old patches without aimed PB, one important combination for yellow was the movement keys of S+A and S+D in order to manipulate your lightsaber blade to move infront of someones attack.

I think that only good things can come from adding saber block. More finesse because you have more control over your lightsaber, and it actually matters where you put it, hold it, and what stance you're in, and where you're aiming. Movement matters more aswell, because attacks from far away are further reduced in efficiency by having saber blocks be more likely, in addition to PBs being easier to hit. This makes DISTANCE a more important mechanic again, meaning it enables people with good footwork to outmaneuver slow moving duelists. Again, adding more finesse to footwork aswell as attacking. I fail to see how it can be a bad thing.

I think newer people from 1.3 etc like noel, have problems with saber block because they find it hard to understand the subtle things that it adds, and because they are not used to maneuvering their lightsabers using the movement keys and aiming with the mouse in specific ways. Then there is also the fact that we had several beta tests where tempest decided to put a ridiculous 50% dmg reduction on saber blocks where I kept saying it should be 10% to 20% at max. The specific numbers are not important, the main thing is that all of the newer players were having trouble killing people because they did not aim below the saber. I know achilles was throwing a spastic fit because he was unable to understand this mechanic. So that double wombo combo of not really getting saber block the same way someone from the pre aimed PB era would, combined with bad numbers on bad beta tests using buggy patches in the past, has probably created this perception that someone things it's better to have the lightsaber be a useless prop rather than an actual thing in dueling.

But it really seems to me to be the only logical move, to make lightsabers their own object, and attach some value to it rather than having the tip of a lightsaber = bodyhit. You know, bodyhits should hurt, they should matter. Having lightsabers =/= bodyhits will make BODYHITS matter more aswell, as it will increase their value. A good aggressive player versus a noob will now be much better at burning down someone's BP, because they can get past the enemy lightsaber more, whereas the noob might be able to combo spam but they aren't aiming and moving with the proper finesse.

Don't you see how this is insanely more elegant than what we currently have? Don't you see how much it can potentially contribute to finesse, skill ceiling and dueling feeling like actually LIGHTSABER dueling where you are manipulating your lightsaber like a jedi or sith, and not just playing a button mashing simulator like a tekken or street fighter game. Part of what is missing from modern dueling is elegance and finesse, of both footwork and aiming your lightsaber.

Beautifully said, I have tears.
(╥﹏╥)

 

[[SE] Maren]

ehhhhhh....

 

[RogueWookiee]

bump. Open beta? When.

 

[Hessu]

never