Tempest's Saber Build
- Thread starter {Δ} Achilles
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You can strawman me all day long, it's not gonna prevent me from running an open beta for my vision of the saber system. Yes, my patches before without open betas didn't please everyone, but for example there was v1.5 which many did like (and coincidentally, most people who had similar tastes to those with whom i tested it internally, so i'm pretty sure i listen to feedback rather well - it wasn't everyone's feedback sure, but what can you do when there's opposing feedback eh ?), and there was v1.3 which imo was way worse but which you (and many NA players ?) seem to like way more.
At this point the least liked sabering patches of mine would be v1.1 (which killed all old vets), and v1.4 (which robbed you of your lovely v1.3). v1.5.1 is buggy and it was a mistake to put it out without open beta (though it's not really a mistake, because it was actually only supposed to be a hotfix initially, and just got delayed alot...). But hey, the main reason why i rushed v1.5.1 anyways is because you kept complaining about a timing issue that turned out to be a hitbox change leftover from tempest's old open beta code (and, was it even really that ? we aren't even sure since it's so subtle to test consistently), that i tried to work around by removing input lock on blocking anims.
Meanwhile i don't want to get into this again, but what sabering patches did tempest produce without open beta ? v1.4.4 and v1.4.5, both of which i'm pretty sure didn't exactly have the greatest feedback despite being worked on for about 3 and 6 months respectively, and are actually the reason why SeV thought of making his protest thread I haven't played MBII consistently for 3 years, here's why. which ultimately is what moved me into making v1.5, as tempest's open beta didn't seem to satisfy SeV or seemed to go on too slowly. And yeah, code-wise and even gameplay polishing-wise, wasn't nearly ready for a release, not even close - if it was it would have been released long before i intervened you know, it's not like i intervened arbitrarily just because i felt like it despite you continuing to claim the opposite and trashtalking me (as if you even know a speck of the situation...). So hey, calm down already.
I wouldn't bother doing anything else if i was satisfied with what tempest is doing and planning. But obviously i'm not, and it's because all i can see from it is timid changes like value tweaks, bringing back a few elements from v1.3, complexifying some mechanics that don't need it like ACM (which was purposely simplified in v1.5......), and bringing back some artificial perks in the style of v1.1-v1.4, which, even if slightly better than the ones i had designed at the time from scratch, are still ridiculous to me now. That's not how we're gonna bring back fun and enjoyment to the sabering system, that's just satisfying the nostalgia of a few select v1.3-centered opinions while partially going back to v1.4.9 standards.
Because of all the feedback of many people about how the system "isn't fun/enjoyable" (including from old vets about all post-v1.0 patches), rather than about more specific things like PB or special moves being OP, i want to try new things and redesigns that i hope could this time truly bring forth a large diversity in playstyles (something that v1.5 only very partially did, and that v1.3 certainly did not do any better, stop arguing that it did, that's just due to the system not being as intricately mastered by people at the time, so ofc people try alot of things while learning and it feels like there's diversity) and a great feeling of freedom and control over your character's moves (possibly more so than even pre-v1.1 builds). I want to move on and try to progress from everything we've experienced so far, instead of giving up and just doing a v1.3-v1.5 compromise that would mildly satisfy a potentially large portion of the current community for a few months, then become boring to everyone again like most patches. On top of redesigns i am trying to further develop already existing features such as saber feints, which should objectively be improvements.
I'm not going to disclose anything i'm doing here yet because it isn't complete, but as hard as tempest seems to be trying to answer feedback and work together with other people (much like i did with SeV for v1.5 and even v1.4), i don't think he can come close in terms of designs and improvements. And i mean, i respect his work, despite all the problems i have had with him within the team, and disagreeing with alot of his choices, he definitely makes some good points that have helped me question and improve some of my own designs quite a bit. He is arguably doing better than i did when i only had 2 years of experience at this like him, and thank god he is because after all he benefitted from all the saber code and sabering gameplay experiments i did before him. But at the end of the day right now i have been doing this for 5 years not 2. With what tempest is trying to do now, i can see myself 3 years ago, tinkering with little changes and working around issues with limited insight and a somewhat restricted point of view of feedback despite also being a long-time veteran player, simply because of lack of firsthand experience regarding the release/feedback process, designing, learning from mistakes and coding. And i mean, i'm sure i would say exactly that about my current self, 5 years from now, it's just a plain obvious matter of progress and experience, which unfortunately doesn't shield anyone from mistakes.
But anyways let's hope that with open betas, we will limit mistakes from now on.
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Put yourself in my shoes for a minute.
Could you imagine having a good system? Maybe not perfect but it works. Then it is completely stripped away and you are given a new system. Not only is the PB changed completely but they also remove features -you- like and know are healthy for the game, such as yellow/red/cyan DFAs, blue lunge, and purple stab. Let's go ahead and take away every back slice/stab from all of the styles because why not? You get no say in the matter. You're voice simply does not matter.
Now picture it's 4-6 years later and there have been a plethora of patches since the current 1.5.1 you are playing now. Most of the duelists from your day are long gone because of the change and removal of features that were either key or added style to duels (In my case this was nudge, fast halfswing, saber twirl, heal to deactivate lightsaber, and others.). You go onto the forums to try and educate the current community of better times and features long missed and arbitrarily taken away. No one is listening, do you know why? It's because they are ignorant and really don't know the difference between a good system and a bad system. They say they have gone back to play the old 1.5.1 and think it's completely clunky and simply worse. You know they don't understand because they never lived through it, they never put the hours into it, and they never truly grasped what real dueling was at its prime.
It's the same scenario happening right here in this thread.
If you think patch 1.3 allowed for great versatility in playstyles, you must not have truly experienced anything pre V1... Comparing anything V1+ to let's say RC1/RC3 is like comparing an ant to a dinosaur in terms of playstyles. There is really no comparison at all. Individualism was removed the second the old features and the old PB was taken away. The last patch I actively played was v1.2.2 back in 2015. I've been playing since b16, but I didn't join the dueling scene until b18-19. That was over a decade ago kid, I was dueling while you were twiddling your thumbs in preschool suckin on your momma's teet.
You want to know why it sucked? Nudge was sloppily reintroduced after the new PB system but it was a complete failure in execution. It was so bad it was cycled out within the same patch it was cycled in. What you think of in your brain when you think of nudge is completely different than what the older playerbase thinks.
I'll explain it nice and simple for you.
The original concept of nudge worked exactly how it was supposed to with saber blocking - not camera blocking. The concept of nudge was designed for saber hitboxes and saber blocking. It was never designed for nor meant to be implemented with a camera blocking PB system.
Let me prove it: look at your post right here.
You show right here that you are talking about nudge after it was re-implemented and failed. Anyone who ACTUALLY played RC1-RC3 never thought of nudge as a GUESS. It was 100% timing, no guessing involved. You have a bad experience of the worse, horribly re-implemented nudge, not the actual nudge. You may have dipped your toe into the older saber systems, but you don't really understand it. Everyone in this thread thinks nudge is shit for all the wrong reasons.
See below
See above
Bitter and tired indeed. Take a seat, young Skywalker.
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Well, it doesn't help anyone if you don't explain how the old nudge worked. the only information I can extract from what you said is "I think the newer nudge was worse because it didn't work with camera blocking."
that's only an opinion, not a description of a fact
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Hessu
Internal Beta Team
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"It's because they are ignorant and really don't know the difference between a good system and a bad system." That's subjective. Also that video you posted about the old version looks extremely clunky
Put yourself in my shoes for a minute.
Could you imagine having a good system? Maybe not perfect but it works. Then it is completely stripped away and you are given a new system. Not only is the PB changed completely but they also remove features -you- like and know are healthy for the game, such as yellow/red/cyan DFAs, blue lunge, and purple stab. Let's go ahead and take away every back slice/stab from all of the styles because why not? You get no say in the matter. You're voice simply does not matter.
Now picture it's 4-6 years later and there have been a plethora of patches since the current 1.5.1 you are playing now. Most of the duelists from your day are long gone because of the change and removal of features that were either key or added style to duels (In my case this was nudge, fast halfswing, saber twirl, heal to deactivate lightsaber, and others.). You go onto the forums to try and educate the current community of better times and features long missed and arbitrarily taken away. No one is listening, do you know why? It's because they are ignorant and really don't know the difference between a good system and a bad system. They say they have gone back to play the old 1.5.1 and think it's completely clunky and simply worse. You know they don't understand because they never lived through it, they never put the hours into it, and they never truly grasped what real dueling was at its prime.
It's the same scenario happening right here in this thread.
If you think patch 1.3 allowed for great versatility in playstyles, you must not have truly experienced anything pre V1... Comparing anything V1+ to let's say RC1/RC3 is like comparing an ant to a dinosaur in terms of playstyles. There is really no comparison at all. Individualism was removed the second the old features and the old PB was taken away. The last patch I actively played was v1.2.2 back in 2015. I've been playing since b16, but I didn't join the dueling scene until b18-19. That was over a decade ago kid, I was dueling while you were twiddling your thumbs in preschool suckin on your momma's teet.
You want to know why it sucked? Nudge was sloppily reintroduced after the new PB system but it was a complete failure in execution. It was so bad it was cycled out within the same patch it was cycled in. What you think of in your brain when you think of nudge is completely different than what the older playerbase thinks.
I'll explain it nice and simple for you.
The original concept of nudge worked exactly how it was supposed to with saber blocking - not camera blocking. The concept of nudge was designed for saber hitboxes and saber blocking. It was never designed for nor meant to be implemented with a camera blocking PB system.
Let me prove it: look at your post right here.
You show right here that you are talking about nudge after it was re-implemented and failed. Anyone who ACTUALLY played RC1-RC3 never thought of nudge as a GUESS. It was 100% timing, no guessing involved. You have a bad experience of the worse, horribly re-implemented nudge, not the actual nudge. You may have dipped your toe into the older saber systems, but you don't really understand it. Everyone in this thread thinks nudge is shit for all the wrong reasons.
See below
See above
Bitter and tired indeed. Take a seat, young Skywalker.
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Put yourself in my shoes for a minute.
Could you imagine having a good system? Maybe not perfect but it works. Then it is completely stripped away and you are given a new system. Not only is the PB changed completely but they also remove features -you- like and know are healthy for the game, such as yellow/red/cyan DFAs, blue lunge, and purple stab. Let's go ahead and take away every back slice/stab from all of the styles because why not? You get no say in the matter. You're voice simply does not matter.
Now picture it's 4-6 years later and there have been a plethora of patches since the current 1.5.1 you are playing now. Most of the duelists from your day are long gone because of the change and removal of features that were either key or added style to duels (In my case this was nudge, fast halfswing, saber twirl, heal to deactivate lightsaber, and others.). You go onto the forums to try and educate the current community of better times and features long missed and arbitrarily taken away. No one is listening, do you know why? It's because they are ignorant and really don't know the difference between a good system and a bad system. They say they have gone back to play the old 1.5.1 and think it's completely clunky and simply worse. You know they don't understand because they never lived through it, they never put the hours into it, and they never truly grasped what real dueling was at its prime.
It's the same scenario happening right here in this thread.
If you think patch 1.3 allowed for great versatility in playstyles, you must not have truly experienced anything pre V1... Comparing anything V1+ to let's say RC1/RC3 is like comparing an ant to a dinosaur in terms of playstyles. There is really no comparison at all. Individualism was removed the second the old features and the old PB was taken away. The last patch I actively played was v1.2.2 back in 2015. I've been playing since b16, but I didn't join the dueling scene until b18-19. That was over a decade ago kid, I was dueling while you were twiddling your thumbs in preschool suckin on your momma's teet.
You want to know why it sucked? Nudge was sloppily reintroduced after the new PB system but it was a complete failure in execution. It was so bad it was cycled out within the same patch it was cycled in. What you think of in your brain when you think of nudge is completely different than what the older playerbase thinks.
I'll explain it nice and simple for you.
The original concept of nudge worked exactly how it was supposed to with saber blocking - not camera blocking. The concept of nudge was designed for saber hitboxes and saber blocking. It was never designed for nor meant to be implemented with a camera blocking PB system.
Let me prove it: look at your post right here.
You show right here that you are talking about nudge after it was re-implemented and failed. Anyone who ACTUALLY played RC1-RC3 never thought of nudge as a GUESS. It was 100% timing, no guessing involved. You have a bad experience of the worse, horribly re-implemented nudge, not the actual nudge. You may have dipped your toe into the older saber systems, but you don't really understand it. Everyone in this thread thinks nudge is shit for all the wrong reasons.
See below
See above
Bitter and tired indeed. Take a seat, young Skywalker.
Defiled, flaming is not making any progress. All you did was manage to be extremely edgy and show childlike angst whilst making absolutely no point whatsoever at all. “I play dis patch it good, I play yo patch ur patch garbage.” That’s literally everyone right now pointlessly bickering stating the same thing over and over again and not making any points. Hey guys, last time I checked slamming each other with insults and not making any valid points doesn’t work... Like Ever... So how about instead of bashing each other, make some actual valid points...
Like for example... instant counters are a problem, DFAs do extreme amounts of damage and are almost unavoidable sometimes. Interrupts are inconsistent, pblocking is not completely consistent, saber animation locks, red and its ridiculously high damage and terrible defense.
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This.
Just fix these and it will be great. No need for drastic revamps or reverts from a decade ago. Most of the community has no idea how sabering looked back then and would be frustrated at a major revert like that which only a few people on the forums were vocal about. Fix the current urgent issues that were mentioned above, release it as a hotfix then work on new builds that Tempest or Stassin want to devote their time to.
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Ousz
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Those are His ego fights where he is fighting some first timers you can't measure quality of sabering like that it does look enjoyable but he gets no real enemy to fight. I didn't see him PB once he is cheesing DFA and different spams this isn't even shadowswinging. If you had an equal fight it would be possible to say something this is so staged or just his opponents are so low level.
Hessu
Internal Beta Team
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There was no pb on that old version. It looks like the older systems didnt require that much skill to duel as it does today
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So just timed block was a thing instead of PB? If you had that and you could crack down on
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I hate current PB it doesn't apply to people who face hug you in the open. It's not worth relying on atm. You are safer dodging. If you focus on PBing in the open you will get side whacked, it's not honor duels anyway. Tempest, Stassin do your changes around OPEN MODE for once. Make it so you can stay alive with 2 people trying to side whack you, change PB enough to allow that happening.
Duel ≠ Open.
Duel ≠ Open.
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wiize
If only some people focused less on strawmanning others and more on game content, this community would certainly be a better place...Just for the record, when saying this i only meant about the same thing as tempest means here:
My way with words is just more abrupt, because i don't ever want to devolve in bamboozling which i hate with a passion. But yeah, sometimes there are better ways to word stuff without devolving into that at all, as tempest did here.
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stupid bullshit perpetuates stupid bullshit
you say that, i say this, no progress is made
carry on
rememberk ids dont do a stupid bullshit unless you appreciate stagnation
Hessu
Internal Beta Team
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It was like you had to get your opponents saber to hit your saber so you blocked it, not really skillful or anything + staff & duals could block pretty much everything lel (if it was normal/neutral block back then as i think it was )
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If you can punish for spam it could be good, it sounds like a version of parry from what you are saying.
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No, it wasn't. Tempest attempted to bring it back via 'normal block', and it was horrendously skill-less. There was no real way to control where your opponent's saber would be, and if you hit his saber, your damage didn't happen. So people could effectively block damage by having a seizure with mblock animation whilst staring at the floor.
In old sabering, amongst vets, that translated to 99% footwork, 1% style choice, as some styles had a distinct disadvantage due to their blocking stance.