Rogue One 1st teaser trailer !!
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Chaos the Chaotic
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Mind tricks. 'This is not the response you are looking for.'
Great expectations - overrated. Both in life and the movie.
Great expectations - overrated. Both in life and the movie.
DarthDementous
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what a shit show. I almost feel bad for trying to be reasonable in my response.
why should anyone care about what goes on behind a movie or its intention if you experience it as a consumer of entertainment? only the content within the movie should be of relevance, no?
with that said, please keep gender politics out of Star Wars. yes movies can serve as propaganda but Star Wars, really? true gender equality means that you don't even factor in the sexes of the characters into your judgment. what frustrates me is that if the character was male there wouldn't be any 'controversy'.
as for the term Mary Sue, hoo boy. I love it when people think a term that originated from Star Trek fan-fiction to describe self-insert characters that are loved by everyone (basically a way for the author to project themselves into a fantasy world, because trust me Lawrence Kasdan and JJ Abrams were totally doing that), is some kind of critical analysis of a movie. lets face it, the reason the term became popular in conjunction with Rey is because of Max Landis' tweet and only you can stop the spread of something as nonsensical as this.
please do tell me how the hero of the OT, Luke Skywalker, isn't a Gary Stu by the standards you set for Rey. it strikes me as something that has only come up as a result of people thinking that having a strong independent character is pushing some kind of agenda.
why should anyone care about what goes on behind a movie or its intention if you experience it as a consumer of entertainment? only the content within the movie should be of relevance, no?
with that said, please keep gender politics out of Star Wars. yes movies can serve as propaganda but Star Wars, really? true gender equality means that you don't even factor in the sexes of the characters into your judgment. what frustrates me is that if the character was male there wouldn't be any 'controversy'.
as for the term Mary Sue, hoo boy. I love it when people think a term that originated from Star Trek fan-fiction to describe self-insert characters that are loved by everyone (basically a way for the author to project themselves into a fantasy world, because trust me Lawrence Kasdan and JJ Abrams were totally doing that), is some kind of critical analysis of a movie. lets face it, the reason the term became popular in conjunction with Rey is because of Max Landis' tweet and only you can stop the spread of something as nonsensical as this.
please do tell me how the hero of the OT, Luke Skywalker, isn't a Gary Stu by the standards you set for Rey. it strikes me as something that has only come up as a result of people thinking that having a strong independent character is pushing some kind of agenda.
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agentoo8
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the SJW is strong ^
to 100% honestly say that the new films (especially when we consider that Abrams himself said he intends to promote a more progressive attitude in his RECRUITING of actors/actresses - let's ignore their individual merit and focus on conforming to a PC recruitment process!) are not propagating a PC mindset is completely false.
Don't confuse being pissed off with the pursuing of a specific agenda time-in, time-out as of late with a person being <insertX>ist.
to 100% honestly say that the new films (especially when we consider that Abrams himself said he intends to promote a more progressive attitude in his RECRUITING of actors/actresses - let's ignore their individual merit and focus on conforming to a PC recruitment process!) are not propagating a PC mindset is completely false.
Don't confuse being pissed off with the pursuing of a specific agenda time-in, time-out as of late with a person being <insertX>ist.
Chaos the Chaotic
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What garbage. Luke a Gary Stu?
I don't think you know or understand what a Mary Sue is. Look it up. Educate yourself. It has a myriad of meaning and yours frankly is so out-dated and selective as to be asinine.
When people call Rey a Mary Sue - an annoyingly perfect character, the I can anything type.
Comparing Luke to her? Seriously? Laughable nonsense. Lost a hand, struggles, training vs...gee, I closed my eyes and suddenly can do anything.
Lulz at how you try to dismiss the term based on its origin. OMFG, it originated from Star Trek! So fucking what? Fanfiction? So fucking what?
Good lord, as I said, asinine.
Get out of here. Strong and independent? You mean paper thin and hardly believable? Within the movie and the rules set there-in in case you harp on that.
And no, if she'd been a dude, it'd be the same damn thing. You're own bias on display tbh. The only argument you could make is one that you'd lose. Physical superiority but hey, why bother as I'm sure you'll just have a non-response.
No one should care about the message the movie gives or the motivations behind it. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
And yet, here you are, defending it.
I don't think you know or understand what a Mary Sue is. Look it up. Educate yourself. It has a myriad of meaning and yours frankly is so out-dated and selective as to be asinine.
When people call Rey a Mary Sue - an annoyingly perfect character, the I can anything type.
Comparing Luke to her? Seriously? Laughable nonsense. Lost a hand, struggles, training vs...gee, I closed my eyes and suddenly can do anything.
Lulz at how you try to dismiss the term based on its origin. OMFG, it originated from Star Trek! So fucking what? Fanfiction? So fucking what?
Good lord, as I said, asinine.
Get out of here. Strong and independent? You mean paper thin and hardly believable? Within the movie and the rules set there-in in case you harp on that.
And no, if she'd been a dude, it'd be the same damn thing. You're own bias on display tbh. The only argument you could make is one that you'd lose. Physical superiority but hey, why bother as I'm sure you'll just have a non-response.
No one should care about the message the movie gives or the motivations behind it. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
And yet, here you are, defending it.
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None of which happened in the first movie. Pretty much only lost the person he looked up to -> same thing happens to Rey kinda.
Puppytine
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Chaos the Chaotic
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There was no duel in the first movie
And he had a force ghost whispering sweet encouragement into his ear to take the shot
Pervy Ol' Uncle Ben, watching Luke from the shadowy underworld of the force. Notice that they're only dudes in the jedi afterlife? Wtfux man.
Rey can out-fight a soldier that trained all their life.
Can out-mind-trick a practiced force wielder, can out-saber a practiced saber user, without effort or thought.
Which can only lead us to one horrible conclusion. Rey is Luke and Leias offspring. The genetic mutation has given her midichlorians wings.
Hah.
And he had a force ghost whispering sweet encouragement into his ear to take the shotPervy Ol' Uncle Ben, watching Luke from the shadowy underworld of the force. Notice that they're only dudes in the jedi afterlife? Wtfux man.
Rey can out-fight a soldier that trained all their life.
Can out-mind-trick a practiced force wielder, can out-saber a practiced saber user, without effort or thought.
Which can only lead us to one horrible conclusion. Rey is Luke and Leias offspring. The genetic mutation has given her midichlorians wings.
Hah.
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Or is a huge fucking mary sue character, i wouldn't be surprised really
BigBossBigTeef
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Am I late for the gender talk?
Because I want people who are not humans to get more of a role.
Jarjar is like the only alien in the movies that got a shitload of screen time and have an active role in the plot.
I want some ithorians, tweilieks, whatever to participate more.
Even will settle for like a million bothans dying on screen.
Because I want people who are not humans to get more of a role.
Jarjar is like the only alien in the movies that got a shitload of screen time and have an active role in the plot.
I want some ithorians, tweilieks, whatever to participate more.
Even will settle for like a million bothans dying on screen.
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DarthDementous
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let me try and address as much as I can.
@agent008 please do tell me how I'm being a SJW by not caring about gender. for Star Wars, a movie centred on escapism, I'm only concerned with the storytelling and what's presented in-universe. why do politics of any kind have to factor in a movie that is designed for entertainment? you think there's some serious allegory about society being presented in Rogue One or TFA? God no.
@ChaostheChaotic Mary Sue is a useless term, you think its evolved but it was only spread mainstream by trolls. trolls that wanted to enrage fanboys by basically dismissing an entire character, twisting the original meaning to suit what it meant. its become a non-term now because it can be moulded so easily to describe a character. when you call Rey a Mary Sue, if you want to be true to the term, then it means you're saying she's a self-insert character that is loved by everyone. coming from professional writers, that's highly unlikely.
however, if you choose to twist the term into something new to describe a character that succeeds at everything then you've basically just described the hero. the hero's journey is a monomyth that holds true especially in the case of Star Wars. I'll show you how Luke's journey is just about as plausible as Rey's using this as the format.
ACTS OF THE HERO'S JOURNEY
(not necessarily in order)
I: DEPARTURE
Luke:
Call to adventure: Princess Leia's message
Refusal of the call: Must help with the harvest
Supernatural aid: Obi Wan uses the Force to mimic a Krayt Dragon to scare off the Tusken Raiders attacking Luke
Crossing the first threshold: Escaping Tatooine
The belly of the whale: Inside the trash compactor
Rey:
Call to adventure: Rey comes across BB-8 and the droid informs her that it holds sensitive data to the Resistance
Refusal of the call: Rey initially wants to sell BB-8 out of the sheer human drive of hunger
Supernatural aid: Finn, a person that is extra-ordinary to Rey, whisks her off as the First Order devastates Niima Outpost
Crossing the first threshold: Finn and Rey escape Jakku via the Millenium Falcon
The belly of the whale: Rey and Finn hide underneath Han's ship as he negotiates with the gangs and the Rathtars are eventually released
II: INITIATION
Luke:
Road of trials: Luke's brief training with Yoda on Dagobah
Temptation from the true path: Lets his anger get the best of him and gives into the Darkside against the vision of Vader on Dagobah
Apotheosis (becoming God-like): Luke becomes a Jedi
The ultimate boon: The Death Star is destroyed
Rey:
Road of trials: Rey goes through 'trial by fire', meaning she learns through direct experience (gradually learning to fly the Millenium Falcon, figuring out she can use the force to manipulate minds through Kylo Ren's mind torture, understanding saber combat by being forced to the edge of the cliff by Kylo Ren)
Temptation from the true path: Rey runs into the forest of Takodana after the harrowing Force vision, tempted by the thought of an easy escape back to her mundane life.
Apotheosis (becoming God-like): Rey channels the Force and defeats Kylo Ren, wielding greater power and standing victorious.
The ultimate boon: Starkiller Base is destroyed
III: RETURN
Luke:
Refusal of the return: Aboard the Death Star, Obi Wan is killed and Luke wants to stay behind and fight Vader.
The magic flight: Escaping the Death Star aboard the Millenium Falcon
Rescue from without: Han saves Luke from Darth Vader's tie-fighter
Crossing the return threshold: The Millenium Falcon destroys the pursuing ties and escapes
Rey:
Refusal of the return: Rey is about to strike down Kylo Ren but is separated by the shattering of Starkiller Base
The magic flight: Escaping the destruction of Starkiller Base aboard the Millenium Falcon
Rescue from without: Chewie arrives in the Falcon to pick up Rey and the wounded Finn
Crossing the return threshold: Rey makes it back to D'Qar and safety
as you can see, the Force Awakens follows that monomyth. particularly pay close attention to the 'Apotheosis' convention. Luke becomes superhuman as a result of the Force, accomplishing what most can not and so does Rey as it lets her defeat Kylo Ren with only staff training.
@agent008 please do tell me how I'm being a SJW by not caring about gender. for Star Wars, a movie centred on escapism, I'm only concerned with the storytelling and what's presented in-universe. why do politics of any kind have to factor in a movie that is designed for entertainment? you think there's some serious allegory about society being presented in Rogue One or TFA? God no.
@ChaostheChaotic Mary Sue is a useless term, you think its evolved but it was only spread mainstream by trolls. trolls that wanted to enrage fanboys by basically dismissing an entire character, twisting the original meaning to suit what it meant. its become a non-term now because it can be moulded so easily to describe a character. when you call Rey a Mary Sue, if you want to be true to the term, then it means you're saying she's a self-insert character that is loved by everyone. coming from professional writers, that's highly unlikely.
however, if you choose to twist the term into something new to describe a character that succeeds at everything then you've basically just described the hero. the hero's journey is a monomyth that holds true especially in the case of Star Wars. I'll show you how Luke's journey is just about as plausible as Rey's using this as the format.
ACTS OF THE HERO'S JOURNEY
(not necessarily in order)
I: DEPARTURE
Luke:
Call to adventure: Princess Leia's message
Refusal of the call: Must help with the harvest
Supernatural aid: Obi Wan uses the Force to mimic a Krayt Dragon to scare off the Tusken Raiders attacking Luke
Crossing the first threshold: Escaping Tatooine
The belly of the whale: Inside the trash compactor
Rey:
Call to adventure: Rey comes across BB-8 and the droid informs her that it holds sensitive data to the Resistance
Refusal of the call: Rey initially wants to sell BB-8 out of the sheer human drive of hunger
Supernatural aid: Finn, a person that is extra-ordinary to Rey, whisks her off as the First Order devastates Niima Outpost
Crossing the first threshold: Finn and Rey escape Jakku via the Millenium Falcon
The belly of the whale: Rey and Finn hide underneath Han's ship as he negotiates with the gangs and the Rathtars are eventually released
II: INITIATION
Luke:
Road of trials: Luke's brief training with Yoda on Dagobah
Temptation from the true path: Lets his anger get the best of him and gives into the Darkside against the vision of Vader on Dagobah
Apotheosis (becoming God-like): Luke becomes a Jedi
The ultimate boon: The Death Star is destroyed
Rey:
Road of trials: Rey goes through 'trial by fire', meaning she learns through direct experience (gradually learning to fly the Millenium Falcon, figuring out she can use the force to manipulate minds through Kylo Ren's mind torture, understanding saber combat by being forced to the edge of the cliff by Kylo Ren)
Temptation from the true path: Rey runs into the forest of Takodana after the harrowing Force vision, tempted by the thought of an easy escape back to her mundane life.
Apotheosis (becoming God-like): Rey channels the Force and defeats Kylo Ren, wielding greater power and standing victorious.
The ultimate boon: Starkiller Base is destroyed
III: RETURN
Luke:
Refusal of the return: Aboard the Death Star, Obi Wan is killed and Luke wants to stay behind and fight Vader.
The magic flight: Escaping the Death Star aboard the Millenium Falcon
Rescue from without: Han saves Luke from Darth Vader's tie-fighter
Crossing the return threshold: The Millenium Falcon destroys the pursuing ties and escapes
Rey:
Refusal of the return: Rey is about to strike down Kylo Ren but is separated by the shattering of Starkiller Base
The magic flight: Escaping the destruction of Starkiller Base aboard the Millenium Falcon
Rescue from without: Chewie arrives in the Falcon to pick up Rey and the wounded Finn
Crossing the return threshold: Rey makes it back to D'Qar and safety
as you can see, the Force Awakens follows that monomyth. particularly pay close attention to the 'Apotheosis' convention. Luke becomes superhuman as a result of the Force, accomplishing what most can not and so does Rey as it lets her defeat Kylo Ren with only staff training.
Cat Lady
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Watch out, we got new potential emperor. "everything is processing just as I've predicted".
...or someone is just a little too self-center focused, writing literally several A4 pages of pseudo-sociological (uneducated much) analysis of one sentence from a poorly composed teaser-trailer. Hah.
Only during Empire Strikes Back, though. In new hope, with exactly 0 training he manage to overcome biggest military battle station in the universe, fool like 100 000 elite trained soldiers, and leave Vader egg-faced when doors close in his face. In "RoTJ", he is virtually invincible on Jabba's sailbarge when 100% focus is on him and he is about to be executed, despite being easily abducted and thrown to prison in his palace.
*khem*
Chaos the Chaotic
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Plain wrong. You keep confusing your opinions with facts. Bad habit.
Do you even understand what a Mary Sue is? Is there a reason you're obsessed with the potential for self-insertion, something Freudian no doubt, that you fail to understand the rest of it, which is pretty much what I'm using it as?
Non-term lol. What the hell is a non-term. It's not a word. The word isn't a word! Even though it is. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz You're just spouting air.
From wikipedia, even they get it for Christs sake.
Wtf does that first sentence say? Do you understand it? Christ. And yeah, even you're insertion fixation remains true because its obvious this is some fanboy/girls dream insertion, a big ol' fuck you to the rest of us
Hell, even tv tropes gets it.
Is this hard for you? Some more.
Remind you of someone?
Hell, let's go God Mode Sue.
God-Mode Sue - TV Tropes
I'm not twisting anything genius. You are. See above. You welcome.
I'll disagree. It was far more believable than TFA due to the story. Luke didn't single-handily destroy the Death Star. He gets credit for the kill shot but really its the Rebels that did the work. Which is established in the movie by the story. Rebels find out about the DS, infiltrate the Empire, get the specs, draw up a battle plan, have a trained squadron of their best pilots, etc.
As to fooling 100,000 elite trained soldiers...think you're numbers are a bit wonky there and hey, don't forget he had teamed with a famous Jedi General and a smarmy smuggler. That adds credibility to it. Believability and how far you're willing to suspend
Sailbarge, whats the problem? He caught him off guard with his skillz.
And he fell down a trap door. Abducted? Wut?
BigBossBigTeef
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Yeah but chewie dident bullshit his way through the senate, piss everyone off who saw episode one, and be a sith lord.
Not saying hes better, but jar jar interacted with the plot than being a regular side character.
Chaos the Chaotic
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Dude, you're so..............
Jar Jar...well this thread just went to shit
Jar Jar...well this thread just went to shit
BigBossBigTeef
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This thread was already shit when people decided to spurg over a movie trailer, bring gender issues up, and then type paragraphs of arguments that nobody is going to read because I learned that walls of text out side of a book; confuse people.Dude, you're so..............
Jar Jar...well this thread just went to shit
Chaos the Chaotic
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That's why you need to use smiley faces.
The gender issue was a momentary diversion. This thread is about the Rogue One trailer. Which shows Jyn as a potential Mary Sue. Which Rey clearly was in TFA. Mary Sues here, there, everywhere!!
And now its devolved into Rey being a Mary Sue in a little boy girl's body.
Wait, well damn. I guess it really is about gender.
I mean come on. Why do all these post-modern heroines have to be so slim and skinny, with no curves? Where's the voluptuous and slutty Mary Sues?
Though Jyn is kind of hot...and one can't help but wonder what else she does with that baton.
Sexist bastards!
The gender issue was a momentary diversion. This thread is about the Rogue One trailer. Which shows Jyn as a potential Mary Sue. Which Rey clearly was in TFA. Mary Sues here, there, everywhere!!
And now its devolved into Rey being a Mary Sue in a little boy girl's body.
Wait, well damn. I guess it really is about gender.
I mean come on. Why do all these post-modern heroines have to be so slim and skinny, with no curves? Where's the voluptuous and slutty Mary Sues?
Though Jyn is kind of hot...and one can't help but wonder what else she does with that baton.
Sexist bastards!
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Watch out, we got new potential emperor. "everything is processing just as I've predicted".
...or someone is just a little too self-center focused, writing literally several A4 pages of pseudo-sociological (uneducated much) analysis of one sentence from a poorly composed teaser-trailer. Hah.
Only during Empire Strikes Back, though. In new hope, with exactly 0 training he manage to overcome biggest military battle station in the universe, fool like 100 000 elite trained soldiers, and leave Vader egg-faced when doors close in his face. In "RoTJ", he is virtually invincible on Jabba's sailbarge when 100% focus is on him and he is about to be executed, despite being easily abducted and thrown to prison in his palace.
*khem*
I can't believe I actually like one of your posts. Good job.
DarthDementous
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@ChaostheChaotic
funny that you should quote TvTropes:
"Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). It was around this time that the term started to lose a concrete meaning, since the label started getting applied even to characters who weren't explicit self-inserts (such as the title character of the episode "The Empath"), but just happened to use similar tropes. It was also (most likely) around this time that the term started to gain its pejorative tone.
Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted. Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from Flame Bait, generally provoking the defendant into rants. Much Internet Backdraft has resulted, especially if the term is applied to a canon character on a popular show.
These last two paragraphs are why it's so hard to really nail down a definition of "Mary Sue": the term has started to be used in a much wider context, and to mean much wider things, than it once did, and there's no way to figure out which of those characteristics are necessary and sufficient to define a Mary Sue."
my argument is that based on the hard-to-define nature of the term Mary Sue (that's what I mean by non-term, something without clear qualities), and how its not acknowledged as a critical descriptor (you won't see professional reviews calling Rey a Mary Sue), that Rey fits the hero archetype more - like Luke. regardless what is perceived, this is most logically the intention of the creators. feel free to dispute the monomyth, but do provide clear examples if you want to have an effective argument.
You said:
"I'll disagree. It was far more believable than TFA due to the story. Luke didn't single-handily destroy the Death Star. He gets credit for the kill shot but really its the Rebels that did the work. Which is established in the movie by the story. Rebels find out about the DS, infiltrate the Empire, get the specs, draw up a battle plan, have a trained squadron of their best pilots, etc.
As to fooling 100,000 elite trained soldiers...think you're numbers are a bit wonky there and hey, don't forget he had teamed with a famous Jedi General and a smarmy smuggler. That adds credibility to it. Believability and how far you're willing to suspend
Sailbarge, whats the problem? He caught him off guard with his skillz. And he fell down a trap door. Abducted? Wut?."
- Luke making the incredibly unlikely shot into a very small exhaust port is implausible if it weren't for the Force. similarly, Rey's ability to pilot the Falcon (although under less duress, only about 3 tie fighters were pursuing) is down to Force intuition, heightening the reflexes and senses of the user.
- if you're comparing the Death Star Assault to the assault on Starkiller Base then the amount of preparation done for each is the same, if not more in the case of TFA. you have Finn outlining the design of the base, Resistance generals identifying the weak-point in the thermal oscillator. in ANH you have the Rebellion analysing the Death Star plans and finding the weak-point in the exhaust vent. however in TFA, Finn and co. actually have to land on the planet, get inside the base, and disable the shields. this only lets the Resistance fighters into the planet's atmosphere, you'll notice that Poe's bombing run does nothing until Han and Chewie detonate open a section into the thermal oscillator so Poe can penetrate through and set off the reactions that blow up the base. certainly less straight-forward than the Death Star.
- the heroes remaining undetected on a space station the size of a moon no doubt manned by many is a suspension of disbelief for the practicality of the story. however, TFA does the exact same thing when Rey traverses through Starkiller Base with Han, Chewie and Finn so how is there a difference in the suspension of disbelief required there?
- the sequence on the Sailbarge would've worked much better if Luke actually looked like he had been training. watch the scene again, the movements he makes are so sluggish and uncoordinated and the guards are so slow to react. it looks clunky, with the bad guys dying as easily as Boba Fett when Han hit his jetpack (come to think of it, both Han and Luke's combat abilities in that scenario looked pretty similar). if we're to ignore the execution and focus on the intention of the scene, that Luke has become stronger in the Force and his abilities, then that doesn't excuse him defeating the Rancor only to succumb to the same number of guards that were on the Sailbarge. the only difference is that he had the element of surprise, something he surely could've done when the hatch popped open and the denizens inspected the corpse of the Rancor.
funny that you should quote TvTropes:
"Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). It was around this time that the term started to lose a concrete meaning, since the label started getting applied even to characters who weren't explicit self-inserts (such as the title character of the episode "The Empath"), but just happened to use similar tropes. It was also (most likely) around this time that the term started to gain its pejorative tone.
Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted. Using the term in most contexts isn't too far off from Flame Bait, generally provoking the defendant into rants. Much Internet Backdraft has resulted, especially if the term is applied to a canon character on a popular show.
These last two paragraphs are why it's so hard to really nail down a definition of "Mary Sue": the term has started to be used in a much wider context, and to mean much wider things, than it once did, and there's no way to figure out which of those characteristics are necessary and sufficient to define a Mary Sue."
my argument is that based on the hard-to-define nature of the term Mary Sue (that's what I mean by non-term, something without clear qualities), and how its not acknowledged as a critical descriptor (you won't see professional reviews calling Rey a Mary Sue), that Rey fits the hero archetype more - like Luke. regardless what is perceived, this is most logically the intention of the creators. feel free to dispute the monomyth, but do provide clear examples if you want to have an effective argument.
You said:
"I'll disagree. It was far more believable than TFA due to the story. Luke didn't single-handily destroy the Death Star. He gets credit for the kill shot but really its the Rebels that did the work. Which is established in the movie by the story. Rebels find out about the DS, infiltrate the Empire, get the specs, draw up a battle plan, have a trained squadron of their best pilots, etc.
As to fooling 100,000 elite trained soldiers...think you're numbers are a bit wonky there and hey, don't forget he had teamed with a famous Jedi General and a smarmy smuggler. That adds credibility to it. Believability and how far you're willing to suspend
Sailbarge, whats the problem? He caught him off guard with his skillz.
And he fell down a trap door. Abducted? Wut?."- Luke making the incredibly unlikely shot into a very small exhaust port is implausible if it weren't for the Force. similarly, Rey's ability to pilot the Falcon (although under less duress, only about 3 tie fighters were pursuing) is down to Force intuition, heightening the reflexes and senses of the user.
- if you're comparing the Death Star Assault to the assault on Starkiller Base then the amount of preparation done for each is the same, if not more in the case of TFA. you have Finn outlining the design of the base, Resistance generals identifying the weak-point in the thermal oscillator. in ANH you have the Rebellion analysing the Death Star plans and finding the weak-point in the exhaust vent. however in TFA, Finn and co. actually have to land on the planet, get inside the base, and disable the shields. this only lets the Resistance fighters into the planet's atmosphere, you'll notice that Poe's bombing run does nothing until Han and Chewie detonate open a section into the thermal oscillator so Poe can penetrate through and set off the reactions that blow up the base. certainly less straight-forward than the Death Star.
- the heroes remaining undetected on a space station the size of a moon no doubt manned by many is a suspension of disbelief for the practicality of the story. however, TFA does the exact same thing when Rey traverses through Starkiller Base with Han, Chewie and Finn so how is there a difference in the suspension of disbelief required there?
- the sequence on the Sailbarge would've worked much better if Luke actually looked like he had been training. watch the scene again, the movements he makes are so sluggish and uncoordinated and the guards are so slow to react. it looks clunky, with the bad guys dying as easily as Boba Fett when Han hit his jetpack (come to think of it, both Han and Luke's combat abilities in that scenario looked pretty similar). if we're to ignore the execution and focus on the intention of the scene, that Luke has become stronger in the Force and his abilities, then that doesn't excuse him defeating the Rancor only to succumb to the same number of guards that were on the Sailbarge. the only difference is that he had the element of surprise, something he surely could've done when the hatch popped open and the denizens inspected the corpse of the Rancor.
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The problem here is that you guys are comparing a 80s movie to modern movies. It was very typical back then that the hero does his ''training'' to finally defeat the bad guy like Rocky in his every goddamn movie. Even the way Luke trained to become stronger was almost as corny as balboa's trainings. (+ don't forget this thing was very popular in all the asian martial arts movies from which star wars takes huge inspiration from). The old movies are not that logical, star wars never went so deep until ppl started to make novels and games (like kotor) and actually think how this stuff works and in what way can things be logical. For example the duel in ep 4 between vader and ben is fucking shit, and yet there are nerds trying to justify why the duel looked like that. Only thing that the duel carries is that it was the very first duel we ever saw in star wars, and it is nostalgic.
Lore-wise eps I-III are so, so much better than eps IV-VI. But the execution of the movies and the feeling in them is so, so much better in IV-VI which is and ESPECIALLY back then was a lot more important. Even this opinion is subjective, some people think that the lore was a lot better when it was simpler and the force was just some mystery. Hell, even LUCAS said that star wars is just a soap opera in space (which the movies are), it was the fans who made it so much more.
If one is to understand the movies, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the lore. Remember that there are a lot more outside influences in the movies compared to novels, not everything is made thinking about the lore.
Lore-wise eps I-III are so, so much better than eps IV-VI. But the execution of the movies and the feeling in them is so, so much better in IV-VI which is and ESPECIALLY back then was a lot more important. Even this opinion is subjective, some people think that the lore was a lot better when it was simpler and the force was just some mystery. Hell, even LUCAS said that star wars is just a soap opera in space (which the movies are), it was the fans who made it so much more.
If one is to understand the movies, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the lore. Remember that there are a lot more outside influences in the movies compared to novels, not everything is made thinking about the lore.
DarthDementous
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I agree, which is why I'm splitting up analysis into intentions and execution. the way I consider the intentions behind the scene is reliant on the context, historical or otherwise. that idea of training up to fight the villain isn't exclusive to the 70s-80s though, it might've been popularised around that time but that convention stretches back to pieces of mythology, hence Joseph Campbell's argument there is some kind of monomyth that binds all these kinds of stories together.
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