[Guide] The Dueling Compendium

Discussion in 'Tutorials and Guides' started by SeV, Oct 30, 2015.

  1. Holo Hero

    Holo Hero

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    Having played for 5 or more years now, I personally take issue with yawing more than anything else. Perhaps swing-block needs to be fine-tuned, or given some sort of indicator for when you are using it. That would at least explain to people what they did wrong when and if they get disarmed. However, yawing seems like a blatant abuse of the system. I'm not really sure if I'm alone in this, but I rarely hear people talk about wanting to fix it (maybe by capping sensitivity or something). Yellow is supposed to be a certain speed, with a certain damage applied to it alongside that. By yawing you make yellow as quick as blue or cyan, but it still does more damage per hit. It reminds me of how the weapon switch insta-swing from a previous build made red more dangerous because its first swing could be instantaneous. Red could use a buff though, in my opinion, but that's a different topic all on its own. Anyway, if you disagree that's fine, but it honestly seems like yawing is a bug, and not a feature.
     
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  2. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

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    i agree to an extent but yawing is a very character-filled mechanic, both sides can do it and it gives people's style a unique flavour.

    It only really becomes a problem in facehug range imo
     
  3. Holo Hero

    Holo Hero

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    Thanks for the reply. Great guide btw.

    I can agree with the flavor aspect, and that it's not restricted to one team's class, but isn't it an exploitation? If it's a feature then perhaps it just needs more fleshing out, because as I understand it yawing is basically just increasing your sensitivity to the point where you can tilt your character model to artificially speed up your swings. Not only does it look silly (To me it resembles someone having a seizure standing up), but it also seems broken. The other aspects of dueling like pblocking, swingblocking, mblocking, and half swinging don't seem to have as much of an impact. Anyway, I'm not necessarily even saying it should be removed. I just think if the only counter to yawing is to yaw yourself then its sort of a self defeating mechanic. Anyway, i could see more but im at work so ill end it there. have a good day!
     
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  4. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

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    This is Sev's guide not mine :)

    I wouldn't say yawing effectively is spamming your mouse around as fast as you can, in fact half of the skill comes from being able to angle yourself correctly so that the earliest part of your swing connects with the opponent. Some swings like WA/WD (with yellow) swings are more affected and they become very hard to pb.

    I don't really know how you could limit people's sensitivity without making side hits too easy, as even if you had a chivarly-esque thing where you swing then your sensitivty gets slowed, people will be able to run around you and backstab you so much more easily. It would also make swinging then pb'ing after pretty hard.

    Whilst yaw probably isn't the most intended way to use the dueling system, I fail to see how it could ever be quenched and I would also be sad to see it go. Perhaps slowing down all styles regular swings so yaw isn't as effective could be a good starting point though
     
  5. Stassin

    Stassin Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    In the current system there's a set limit to how much faster you can make your swings hit. A saber swing is comprised of several animations played sequentially: for one initial swing, there is a start animation, a middle animation and a return animation; for one halfswing a transition animation replaces the start animation, then there is once again a middle animation and return animation. For an "instaswing" (which currently i believe you can do by mblocking and countering after), there is immediately a middle animation, then a return once again. Additionally, when you chain swings in the air, the return animation is always skipped and replaced by a transition animation to initiate the next swing; when you chain swings on a target, the return animation is skipped and not replaced, so you immediately go into the middle phase of the next swing.

    Why did i detail all that: because the only phase of any swing that can hit anything and deal any damage, is the middle animation. All of the other animations will not interact with anything apart from making burn marks on walls (and maybe a few more visual effects like that, such as bubbles in water). Which, in regards to your concern, means that you can yaw all you want, you will never make a swing hit anything before it reaches the middle phase of its animation. Of course, yawing allows you to make it hit right at the start of that phase rather than at its end, so it does help speed up your gameplay, but there's a limit to it. As a result, you won't be able to make all yellow swings hit as fast as blue swings, because (most) starting/transitioning animations are longer for yellow than they are for blue. Although, when you chain swings it will be the same speed indeed for most styles since it skips these initial animations (with the exception of blue style, because it has a shorter cooldown between potential hits than all other styles - all other styles currently have the same cooldown).

    So yawing is effective but there's a cap on how effective it can be. It's also only of any use when you are at close range, at longer ranges you won't be able to make your swings hit right at the start of their middle phase. So it kind of acts as a mechanic to master in order to speed up your close range engagements and make yourself harder to PB (which is necessary against better players, as they'll PB you reliably even at close range unless you yaw effectively + adjust your footwork to start swings only when close enough to them + use unpredictable swing directions). I think it's more than fine for it to be part of the gameplay that way, as you have to mind your camera aim for attacking and not just for defending/PBing. Which was a far more integral part of the base game than it is here. It adds some skillcap.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  6. SeV

    SeV EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    Adding on to what stassin said. I view the main purpose of yawing to be the attackers attempt to confuzzle the attacker, since you should basically always be aiming your attacks into the opponent. (Example: D yellow swing, aim to the right side of the enemy player model). There's a bit of a difference between merely making the attack hit at its earliest point with aim, and yawing to obscure your swings and make PBing you harder, though the two certainly compliment each other. The aim part that makes swings hit at their earliest point, I like alot as a part of skill. I don't really like that you can spastically yaw and flail (put sens 100 and rape your mouse), but these are two different things and you can't really do anything about obscurantism yaws without completely destroying the game. In fact, I would be fine if aiming attacks became a bigger part of the game than it is currently since I think it's too easy to just attack like a noob and get ACM. Most ppl don't even swingblock properly nowadays. I want to add a pinch or two of skill to the system, cuz it's a bit flat atm.
     
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  7. Holo Hero

    Holo Hero

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    You're right, but I thought you too have a guide? Anyway, having now read what other, more experienced players than myself have to say on the matter I'll reconsider my initial stance (no puns intended).

    I should also confess that I was never a fan of base jka dueling because to me it too felt like watching people seizure when they attacked (The red style 360+ spins, for instance).

    I am all for more depth and a higher skill cap with this system. I just don't like the idea of taking advantage of the engine's limitations in order to do that. That being said, I rest my case on my personal distaste with how yawing looks.

    As Stassin said, only the middle animation counts in terms of damage. I shouldn't claim to be more informed than I actually am, so I will take his explanation as fact. So, if yellow with yaw isn't vastly superior to other styles in speed and power then perhaps the issue is myself.

    I don't yaw, though it's mostly out of principle. I'm also a US player, so that will help you to better understand where I'm at as a duelist in terms of my "level". I can't beat a handful of US duelists despite having a solid grasp on all of the mechanics up to yawing.

    That being said, assuming yawing is a welcome part of the mechanics that won't be going away: Is the only way to beat someone proficient in yawing to fight fire with proverbial fire? Any tips, or advice if not?

    Thanks,
     
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  8. noel

    noel Internal Beta Team

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    I do yeah, I just thought you'd got confused lol, thank you in that case :^))

    The best way is to keep your distance, if they run up to you and try to facehug you can slap/kick them just as they get into range

    Alternatively you can parry their swings (start a combo as soon as their first swing lands) which will nerf some of the damage

    Yawing yourself is a useful thing to do, I wouldn't say it's neccessary in order to be good but you're sort of cucking yourself by not doing it out of principle
     
  9. Holo Hero

    Holo Hero

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    Well, aside from the visual grievance I have with it, I don't like idea of 'kstyling' just to win. Otherwise my entire dueling style would consist of shadow-swinging, and mblocking. Speaking of, things like mblock, pblock and half-swing seem like intended mechanics. Yawing on the other hand feels like exploitation. I mean, it was likely devised as a way to duel other people who were extremely good at pblocking, and mblocking. That in of itself is admirable, or would be if not for the fact that their answer to someone who had gotten good with the intended mechanics was to go outside of the intended mechanics. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, and much like 'kstyling' in the old game GunZ, yawing too is likely to adopted as a feature rather than a bug because of its effectiveness. I just don't care for it. To be honest, with the ability to cancel swings I don't generally see a need for it. There are only like 4-5 US duelists who are so extremely good that they can pblock every yellow swing you throw at them, and even then it's more that they have good slap timing and solid combo-timing that make them so deadly.
     
  10. Stassin

    Stassin Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    In recent builds i would say the most crucial point in order to have successful attacks (and not get every swing PBed or mblocked, or constantly miss and get interrupted), is to make sure that your attacks are started up close to your opponent. You may still get PBed especially if your swinging pattern gets predictable, but it won't be quite as often as if you start attacks from a distance (and in that case it's also easy for the enemy to dodge and interrupt you). Yawing will help getting PBed even less but it's more of a polishing technique than anything, the key point is starting attacks close, the closer the better.

    Of course, getting closer also means that the opponent's attacks will also be harder to PB, so it's all about footwork and timing to get your attack to start up close while maintaining more distance when he starts his attacks. Sometimes opponents also won't even let you get closer, they will step back when you walk or run closer in an attempt to confuse your timings; sometimes they will instead attack you immediately as soon as you make it seem like you are coming closer. So you need to be ready for all that in order to keep good footwork and timings. The act of closing in to attack already puts you at a disadvantage because you open yourself to the opponent, he can decide to run away or attack you before you start an attack yourself. So in order to avoid being put at a disadvantage you need to close in subtly and carefully, ready for any reaction from the opponent, ready to immediately back off again if you need to in order not to lose the timing battle; as opposed to closing in straightforwardly and immediately starting an attack.

    For that, you need to bait the opponent, for example make it seem like you are going to rush in, then stop and see what the opponent does. Then again. Then, unpredictably, you actually close in and attack. The point being that the opponent must not be able to read/predict what you are going to do. A useful tactic can be to attack from a distance but instead miss on purpose, chain another swing in the air and hit that one; it allows you to close in, bait the enemy to PB and thus mess up his prediction, and then allows you to start an attack (the one chained in the air) from up close thus hard to PB. Of course the opponent may not try to PB and instead run away and try to interrupt you, so you need to be able to react to that appropriately (backing off).

    All of this, while meant to be tips for attacking, can obviously be seen from the opposite point of view when the opponent is the one trying to close in and rush you. Anyways in short, yawing does help but it's not a key tactic in order to win duels, if you outskill and outsmart your opponents with better positioning, timing and mind games it won't matter if they yaw and you don't. Except at the top tier of dueling where people already do most things very well so it will be quite hard to fill the small gap in effectiveness introduced by yawing with something else.
     
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  11. Holo Hero

    Holo Hero

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    I appreciate the feedback. I honestly do my best to not ego, so it's hard for me to say matter-of-factly what tier I belong to in terms of dueling as far as US players are concerned. I only have trouble with a handful of players most of the time, and that's including any and all saber forms as well. With that being said, the thing that gives me the most trouble is in fact yawing. Honestly, I'd rather just fully understand it rather than learn it. Personal choice, but at least at that point I'll fully comprehend what it is I'm up against. Sadly, I may need to get good at it in order to fully understand it. I'm kind of a hands-on person when it comes to learning anyway.

    People that are excellent at pblocking (Like my pal SaucyMonkey) are still vulnerable to quicker or different styles (IE cyan, blue, staff), and even with yellow you can do as you suggested and start swings close. You can also swing-cancel to make them try and parry you, which can allow you to get the parry or whatever. I think even without yawing in my arsenal there are plenty of tricks to use. I definitely still need to improve on all of the basics, and especially work on my combinations. I think I just may need to swallow my pride and channel some Floyd Mayweather Jr defense in order to beat the aggressive yawing duelists. Move back, try and pblock/parry and continue to dodge while returning combos and avoiding slaps. So far I've made the mistake of just standing toe to toe with them, but often times they end up stepping out of range of one swing and yawing back in for a four-hit yellow combo. Then I try and stand toe-to-toe again. That's just poor footwork on my part. I'll keep working at it until I have a steady gameplan.
     
  12. hleV

    hleV

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    Lock player's animation as if he's aiming straight during swings and yawing is fixed?
     
  13. SeV

    SeV EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    I guess there is a good reason the devs have never listened to any of your ideas.
     
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  14. pelmeņu lauks

    pelmeņu lauks

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    Just do this https://i.gyazo.com/7ddbf39637a438b6e35ebdf9083b7da2.mp4 until there's one minute left on the round timer. By then, your opponent will probably be wondering what's for dinner. By then, he would've probably missed some pbs (and not because of their inability to aim, but lag/packet loss, inconsistent pb zones) and you have 3 ACM which solely, undoubtedly makes you better than your opponent. And like one wise man once said (not actually wise, just some random new player):
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    no but seriously, remove that shit
     
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  15. hleV

    hleV

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    Yeah. Look where are we now :)
     
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  16. SeV

    SeV EU Official Server Admin Internal Beta Team

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    SeV: "Hey guys, lemme provide you with continuous suggestions for several years + offer to test everything intensely and thoroughly. Oh and also we should push for open beta development for the saber system."

    Devs: "Not if anything to say about it, I have. Take years it shall, hmm yeeees. Code weird bugs we will. Listen not to your sensible suggestions, no. Use you for testing we shall not. Open beta? He is too old to be trained."
     
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  17. Stassin

    Stassin Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    SeV likes this.
  18. n00b

    n00b

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    haha this is fucking gold, Rioda is a new guy - as in completely new. Just comes to show that even the plebs embrace the cancer that is ACM
     
  19. Aizencin

    Aizencin EU Official Server Admin

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    Savage

    PS: I think ACM is fine because gaining it prevents full spammy duels, but wont mind if they remove ACM and still make duels not full of spam
     
  20. SneakDissing

    SneakDissing

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    [​IMG]
     
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