Feedback Thread: 1.5

[GoodOl'Ben]

The core gameplay in regards to saber v saber and saber v gunner is the main issue I have with this update! Red and purple are the new meta- any other styles are at an extreme disadvantage and are only used to show off experience with the game.

What parts of the core do you find flawed? What you are describing with red and purple sounds more so like balance rather than core mechanics.

Core mechanics generally are big game systems, which smaller features build upon, such as Blue or Red stance.

So my best guess at what a "TFA style fantasy" would be... would be basically a conc blob cannon, haha. But with additional damage, and additional horizontal knockback, like a push. Could balance it in various ways like requiring a long charge up, having a long cooldown afterwards, making it deflectable instead of unblockable... but the core of what I'd consider a "TFA style fantasy" would be that massive single-shot blast-you-off-your-feet type damage.

Largely somewhere in this direction. Obviously the weapon needs to be re-imagined to some extent. What I'm dreaming:

• Keep current regular fire largely as is (lvl 1 and lvl 2)
• Remove level 3 rapid fire
  
• Change the charged shot to deal splash damage and increase knockback and always accurate
• Level 2 charged shot is a single shot
• Level 3 charged shot is multishot when overcharged

 

[Gumba]

• Keep current regular fire largely as is (lvl 1 and lvl 2)

• Remove level 3 rapid fire

• Change the charged shot to deal splash damage and increase knockback and always accurate

• Level 2 charged shot is a single shot

• Level 3 charged shot is multishot when overcharged

That sounds very fun but also very terrible

 

[SlashBolt]

What parts of the core do you find flawed? What you are describing with red and purple sounds more so like balance rather than core mechanics.

Core mechanics generally are big game systems, which smaller features build upon, such as Blue or Red stance.

I'm sorry, I'm confusing my semantics. Red and purple isn't balanced, I guess is what I was trying to say. Red style, according to the library, is built around aggressive strategies, but now that AP isn't critical for duels anymore most fights are about who's hitting the most. As it stands right now there isn't any reason why you shouldn't pick red, as it deals the most damage to BP, unless you want purple and it's stab/range.

 

[jango40]

I stopped playing since zoned PB implementation, joining only time to time to test what's new. No, I can't PB for shit, I'm not good at it, I never practiced it, I don't like it. It's a literal godmode for whoever learns it, now even moreso since it gives BP. Yet, I do random PBs and I'm at full BP. I guess I'm just too good at this game man.

Obviously I'm not saying that I do random PBs everytime and thus never lose, I'm saying it happens too often, is not related to skill, and will continue happening regardless of who is dueling who.

Just like me, who has the time to learn that PB shit

 

[7777]

Tho, watching this clip, it's not especially clear whether the bowcaster shots have that much explosive firepower or whether Han shot some explosive piece of scrap lying on the ground (there's a sort of tube/missile shaped thing he shoots at, of you look closely. Maybe that's what blows up.)

edit: Here's a better clip of definite direct hit firepower (skip to 3:24)

So my best guess at what a "TFA style fantasy" would be... would be basically a conc blob cannon, haha. But with additional damage, and additional horizontal knockback, like a push. Could balance it in various ways like requiring a long charge up, having a long cooldown afterwards, making it deflectable instead of unblockable... but the core of what I'd consider a "TFA style fantasy" would be that massive single-shot blast-you-off-your-feet type damage.

Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I'm sorry, I'm confusing my semantics. Red and purple isn't balanced, I guess is what I was trying to say. Red style, according to the library, is built around aggressive strategies, but now that AP isn't critical for duels anymore most fights are about who's hitting the most. As it stands right now there isn't any reason why you shouldn't pick red, as it deals the most damage to BP, unless you want purple and it's stab/range.

The values could be further looked at for sure if players don't seem to adapt and the dueling meta steers towards favoring red and purple.

Purple stab to me seems like something that could receive some further adjustments though. Especially with its active frames.

Any slight balance tweak will generally just involve number adjustments, so the stances are easy to adjust.

 

[Manyo]

The pb zone indicator is a great idea to make pbing much more transparent. But around the small crosshair it's hard to keep track of while playing, and increasing crosshairsize just looks bad.
Could you try displaying it by having huge transparent zones around the corners of your screen? And it would be even better if a failed pb would also be shown (by a flashing red zone instead of green maybe). That way all those tricky looking animations would be much easier to get used to.

If this would annoy experienced players too much give them the option to disable it.

 

[SeV]

The pb zone indicator is a great idea to make pbing much more transparent. But around the small crosshair it's hard to keep track of while playing, and increasing crosshairsize just looks bad.
Could you try displaying it by having huge transparent zones around the corners of your screen? And it would be even better if a failed pb would also be shown (by a flashing red zone instead of green maybe). That way all those tricky looking animations would be much easier to get used to.

If this would annoy experienced players too much give them the option to disable it.

Use one of the small crosshairs like crosshair 12 with cg_Crosshairsize 35 or 40 and you will see a better version of pbindicator.

 

[jewbacca]

Just played a bit more duels, and I must say I definitely like this update a lot.
I was against 8bp regen on pbs at first, but I think I'm starting to change my mind.

It feels like it kinda forces me to git gud.
See, because you don't want your opponent to ever PB you - it means you HAVE to be creative and unpredictable with your movements. You literally can't win now if you spam one combo over and over again. I found myself constantly changing combos and timing in order to disrupt opponent's PB. I also found myself thinking about my opponent's weak spots, like wtf, man, this brought me some precious saber feels back. I'm geniunly happy now.

My final score for this update: 10 out of Stassin

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

This change makes it so careless attacking vs skilled people isn't rewarded as much. It's the old thing where you are punished for noobish flailing attacks by skill, although it may be a foreign concept to some people that rely overly much on ACM only and just ignore opponents PBs.

Looks like some careless attacking to me.

Why does staff regen the same amount of bp on pb as yellow? I don't think that 8 bp regen against a style that's considerably easier to pb in terms of animations/speed is fair.

Attack/defense values for Yellow: 12/55
Attack/defense values for Staff: 10/70
Attack/defense values for Blue: 6/75

So on top of the whopping +15 defense advantage on paper vs yellow and just -2 attack, you get 8bp regen on pb (70 defense vs Yellow's 55!) and broken spammable animations.

Rhetorical question: If Yellow is supposed to be in the middle (balanced def, offense), Red far to the right (a glass-cannon), and Blue being a polar opposite to Red, where does Staff land considering both the base off/def values and animations that come with this style?

(Normally, all the tournaments are restricted to yellow v yellow but this time all styles were allowed for testing as this was the first 1.5 tournament.)

 

[noel]

Looks like some careless attacking to me.

Why does staff regen the same amount of bp on pb as yellow? I don't think that 8 bp regen against a style that's considerably easier to pb in terms of animations/speed is fair.

Attack/defense values for Yellow: 12/55
Attack/defense values for Staff: 10/70
Attack/defense values for Blue: 6/75

So on top of the whopping +15 defense advantage on paper vs yellow and just -2 attack, you get 8bp regen on pb (70 defense vs Yellow's 55!) and broken spammable animations.

Rhetorical question: If Yellow is supposed to be in the middle (balanced def, offense), Red far to the right (a glass-cannon), and Blue being a polar opposite to Red, where does Staff land considering both the base off/def values and animations that come with this style?

(Normally, all the tournaments are restricted to yellow v yellow but this time all styles were allowed for testing as this was the first 1.5 tournament.)

hit the nail on the head my deer

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

inb4 "staff has short range bro, so you should keep distance and get creative bro)". Swinging at a distance makes Yellow's swings incredibly easy to pb by default, so what the fuck.

 

[a puppy]

eVerY sTyLe Is BaLanCeD!!!11!1!

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Looks like some careless attacking to me.

Why does staff regen the same amount of bp on pb as yellow? I don't think that 8 bp regen against a style that's considerably easier to pb in terms of animations/speed is fair.

Attack/defense values for Yellow: 12/55
Attack/defense values for Staff: 10/70
Attack/defense values for Blue: 6/75

So on top of the whopping +15 defense advantage on paper vs yellow and just -2 attack, you get 8bp regen on pb (70 defense vs Yellow's 55!) and broken spammable animations.

Rhetorical question: If Yellow is supposed to be in the middle (balanced def, offense), Red far to the right (a glass-cannon), and Blue being a polar opposite to Red, where does Staff land considering both the base off/def values and animations that come with this style?

(Normally, all the tournaments are restricted to yellow v yellow but this time all styles were allowed for testing as this was the first 1.5 tournament.)

Yes, staff is really strong in 1.5. However blue is actually better, due to being faster (Blue+Red swapping actually unbeatable). You have to take into account speed and reach. Yellow may not be as fast, but it has twice as much reach.

1.5 is a terrible dueling (and open mode) patch, I agree. Staff is overpowered in 1.5, I agree. However don't hate on things for the wrong reasons. There are a LOT of issues with sabering in this patch aside from just staff having big numbers.

 

[Langerd]

Some things that should be fixed:

-Orange Font for names doesnt work - it shows as black - I wanted my name to be Orange
-There is sometimes bug when looking at dead players in spec mode - they stand with the lightsaber block animation
-Lightsaber when hitting func_breakable makes very loud VERY VERY loud sound.
-Arc trooper - if he will start running with pistol or other weapon and switch to rocket launcher - he is still running. But if switch to rocket launcher and try to run - i cant.

 

[7777]

Some things that should be fixed:

-Orange Font for names doesnt work - it shows as black - I wanted my name to be Orange
-There is sometimes bug when looking at dead players in spec mode - they stand with the lightsaber block animation
-Lightsaber when hitting func_breakable makes very loud VERY VERY loud sound.
-Arc trooper - if he will start running with pistol or other weapon and switch to rocket launcher - he is still running. But if switch to rocket launcher and try to run - i cant.

I'd like to add that grey text does the same, but to red...

 

[Hessu]

Yes, staff is really strong in 1.5. However blue is actually better, due to being faster (Blue+Red swapping actually unbeatable). You have to take into account speed and reach. Yellow may not be as fast, but it has twice as much reach.

1.5 is a terrible dueling (and open mode) patch, I agree. Staff is overpowered in 1.5, I agree. However don't hate on things for the wrong reasons. There are a LOT of issues with sabering in this patch aside from just staff having big numbers.

Blue is not better alone though

 

[Success Breeds Jealousy]

If you main staff in this patch you're a cuck

 

[SeV]

Looks like some careless attacking to me.

Why does staff regen the same amount of bp on pb as yellow? I don't think that 8 bp regen against a style that's considerably easier to pb in terms of animations/speed is fair.

Attack/defense values for Yellow: 12/55
Attack/defense values for Staff: 10/70
Attack/defense values for Blue: 6/75

So on top of the whopping +15 defense advantage on paper vs yellow and just -2 attack, you get 8bp regen on pb (70 defense vs Yellow's 55!) and broken spammable animations.

Rhetorical question: If Yellow is supposed to be in the middle (balanced def, offense), Red far to the right (a glass-cannon), and Blue being a polar opposite to Red, where does Staff land considering both the base off/def values and animations that come with this style?

(Normally, all the tournaments are restricted to yellow v yellow but this time all styles were allowed for testing as this was the first 1.5 tournament.)

Yeah you're pretty much right. I had my reservations about staffs AP/BP numbers and said so, including that it was gonna be strong/OP. What do you think should be adjusted on staff to make it balanced? The obvious thing is that it's defense level is almost the same as blue's, yet it has much more powerful attacks and arguably, staff is nearly as hard to PB as blue if played correctly. Sambyka did a good job of showing the gay staff halfswings that make staff very strong. You're almost forced into a combo heavy style vs staff just to deny the halfswings.

Ppl are attached to staffs fantasy being 1V2 due to episode 1, aswell as staff being synonymous with strong defense. I've always thought of staff as a more defensively oriented yellow style. In any case, you could do something like 8/70 or reduce it to 3 hit combos only, or do 10/60 or 10/65 depending on whats balanced. Personally I am leaning towards 10/60 (or 11/60) because we already have blue style with a high defense value and that along with red to be opposite uniques as you said.

The blue+red combo is definitely strong, but not unbeatable.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

What do you think should be adjusted on staff to make it balanced?

My first thought was to introduce some sort of bp regen scaling to styles' respective def values. Meaning the larger your bp pool is, the less bp you gain on pb and vice versa. I thought it would make sense that if you play a defensive style, you should be pb'ing more, but according to Stassin:

Now because Blue can barely scratch the surface of Yellow, and the main damage comes from interrupts. It would make sense that if you flail around carelessly with it, you should be punished. And I think it would be kind of ballsy, risk-reward situation for someone to switch to Red and pblock a careless spammer a few times to regen a chunk of bp. I think it would be neat to test something like that, because either way, fast style with large bp pool regenerating same amount of bp as any slower style doesn't sit right with me.