Tempest's Saber Build

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i've been an advocate for old school pblocking ever since it was changed. a few months back i played v0 with some friends (old pblock) and i'll just say this - it's fucking horrible. maybe some mix of the old and new system could work idk but you basically have to hold S key, and if you want it to work reliably, you need to S key with blue stance. i don't play too often anymore. haven't enjoyed dueling all that much for a long time now but i wanted to at least post this from a once biased (toward old pblock) perspective

this wasn't meant to be an elaborate post. just felt my change of heart toward the current pblock system was worthy of a post after reading some of this thread. old pblock is very unreliable and promotes holding your backward movement key down. this version of perfect blocking is much better but still has it's issues
 
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And Firestrike, while I respect your standing as a great NA duelist in the past, you have to understand that pre 1.1 is waaaay too far back. I remember when 1.4 released you said you liked it a lot, but then immediately stopped playing. Every iteration past 1.3 lost more of the old duelists, despite many of them saying they liked it. I don't think the old duelists know what they want beyond "I want that old nostalgia".

I don't want to draw any attention away from the topic but I also don't wan't to be personally misquoted. I did say that I liked the V 1.4 release simply because it was a substantial improvement in contrast to the graveyard patch that was V 1.1. However, in comparison to RC1 or RC3p3 and RC3p4, I don't believe V1.3 or V1.4 comes close, else I wouldn't have originally made the post.

That being said, I agree with you about the general statement that most of the older duelists don't know exactly what they want aside from the nostalgia factor. A lot of them were legendary players, but only a few truly paid attention patch to patch, and knew the mechanics that really made each system shine. I don't want my original post to come off as that old duelist that came back, got my butt kicked in the current patch, and then came here to complain about the "glory days". I was very competent in every saber system I actively dueled in, that includes V1.4 (even though Kael Windu low-key mopped the floor with me). We also have dueled several times and I personally thought that you were one of the better upcoming duelists in the newer build. I respect your opinion as much as you respect mine.

The point I'm making is that I am trying to be objective and as non-biased as possible when I make the claim that dueling has lost its luster post V1.1. My reasons in my original post are fairly objective, and the opinions I do make I truly believe as they were resonated very clearly and concisely among the older playerbase before they left.

The saber system evolved for a reason, and unfortunately it has gone waaaaay too far off track with 1.5+, and that is due to your reasoning of listening to the minority/yourself.

I personally believe the system has devolved, stemming from two select patches I mentioned in my original post, RC2 and V1. I'll drop a post from Markyle here.

Something is missing...

Backing Firestrike on the specific issue of individualism in dueling; Developing dueling from the root of the saber system, not just the cherry on top (perks) would help allow a player to create a style different from any other player. There was a time when two players could join a server as Padawan, and Padawan[1] and duel. Spectating the duel it would not take long to determine which player in our community was Padawan, and which was Padawan[1].

The idea of picking out an alias is not important, but the individual style choices of previous builds ( specifically before cyan and purple) was a great time in the history of this game. After RC3 P3-P4 we experienced some heavy changes to the system that slowly started eating away at individualism in dueling. I have always been more of an observer when it comes to dueling so I must defer to the masters when it comes down to the fine details of the system, but looking back there is a noticeable amount of creativity allowed to duelists that we now lack.

Getting back to the roots of what make this saber system great should be a concern moving forward.

Admittedly he quotes me, but the point he makes is solid and was well received at the time. It's just an excerpt, but the entire thread is a good read if you are skeptic to the idea that the quality of sabering has regressed instead of progressed.

i've been an advocate for old school pblocking ever since it was changed. a few months back i played v0 with a some friends (old pblock) and i'll just say this - it's fucking horrible. maybe some mix of the old and new system could work idk but you basically have to hold S key, and if you want it to work reliably, you need to S key with blue stance. i don't play too often anymore. haven't enjoyed dueling all that much for a long time now but i wanted to at least post this from a once biased (toward old pblock) perspective

Holding the S key and walking backwards has existed in every build from the beginning. When you are trying to block a swing or play defensive, it makes sense to slam the S key to get a better advantage on the incoming swing. In the old PB system, more space meant a better angle to PB with the saber. In the current PB system, more space means more time to adjust your camera to the right zone before the swing connects. Holding S with blue out had counterplay, nudge trumped defensive turtling. If you were playing V0, I can see how it could be frustrating.

You're right when you say the old perfect block wasn't 100% reliable. Even in RC3 and V0, perfect block did not work with 100% accuracy. That ideally was the issue I thought the MBII team was going to fix - making the old PB system more reliable. Make it so aiming at the floor was less relevant. Make it so the PB registered better for both players. Instead V1.1 got pushed out and the rest is history and has already been discussed. To requote the same topic from earlier, I still firmly believe and agree with your initial assessment of the current PB system back in 2015 (minus the nudge).

The old system doesn't need nudge to be good. It's the perfrct block concept that required actual saber placement as opposed to aiming your crosshair as if you're a gunner, that made it good. You can continue to call it "inconsistent" but personally I would much rather an "inconsistent" pblock system where the majority of swings actually hit the player as opposed to now where the majority are pblocked 70% of the time. This "inconsistency" (I continue to put this in quotes because I do not believe that it was inconsistent) comes from the sensitivity of the saber placement and the multiple levels of swing angling. It wasn't like now where there are three places you need to aim your crosshair to look at in order to perform a perfect block. The system was intricate and visually made sense as it would in a "real" duel. I'm sure these "inconsistencies" of the old pblock could have been adjusted anyway without changing the entire design to some simple 3-crosshair placement system.

Looking at the ground meant nothing for a defenseman that knew what they were doing. Low swings could be perfect blocked just like any other swing as long as you knew what you were doing. Having the option to adjust your swing angles slightly in several different ways to try and get around your opponents blocking encouraged swing variety more than there is now. So yeah, nudge combo-ing had nothing to do with what made the last system better, it's the blocking system. Do you not see how many people stopped duelng after they gave this system a fair shot? Does this not speak to you? I understand you put a lot of work into this system but sometimes changes don't work out and after this long seeing the effect of the saber system change I think it's fair to say that this one did not necessarily work out. And I don't believe this is a matter of ragequitting or any type of excuse to stop playing the game... If that's what you think people are doing when they tell you the old system was better, then you are deluded
 
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fair play ol chap

i'm not opposed to re-introducing some form of saber placement perfect blocking. to me though, the biggest issue is the inconsistency as stated. especially coming from a few years of the current reliable pb system. the meta was far different back then. duelists that could actually pblock well were pretty rare. now, perfect blocking is virtually everything. it's one of the first things people teach new players. it was never like that, mostly because of the inconsistency. a polished and reliable saber placement based perfect blocking system would be great. my recent experience with the old system however, was horrible. the build i stated was my favorite of all time (v0) felt like a mess compared to now

edit: i will say this though - i agree with most of the other mechanics mentioned from the old builds. i think this system and many of the previous from the past 2 years are very bland and force mostly the same style upon high level duelists. definitely a lack of individualism in the recent years of dueling and the boring, yet reliable, perfect blocking system is certainly partly to blame
 
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I'm sorry to say but in all honesty this patch has killed dueling and what motivation a handful of people had left for dueling in the EU scene anyway.... and i believe this is for a number of reasons.

The random bp loss, inconsistent interrupts, unrewarding pb's due to the nerf, (4bp per pb is so low your better of going full aggressive and go for interrupts and spamming halfswings to stay alive), literally no point even bothering to pb anymore when the bp drain is so high, i can literally end a duel in 5 swings and thats not an over exaggeration.

Removing MBC's has broken the flow of dueling, MBC's were an awesome tool to break your opponents flow of play and to punish them hard for doing the same swings over and over and over again now there's nothing you can do to stop someone spamming the same shit and not punish them hard enough for it apart from mblocking which to me feels super inconsistent, i'm not going to bother mentioning pb'ing because there's virtually no point pbing anymore, now its just facehug spam halfswings, everyone is fighting with the same style we are all forced to play with this aggressive spam halfswing yaw like mad animals playstyle just to come out on top and thats not what dueling should be about.

There's no such thing as playing ''defensive'' anymore taking hits will just make you die, Duals are fucking broken, staff is still broken, yellow has no flair to it anymore, red is useless in this patch unless your one of those people that use it on someone when there knocked down in a duel which is cheap asf LUL, now that the meta is halfswings blue,staff,duals are just pure aids i can spam halfswings and the person wont be able to get one combo off let alone a swing.

Bring back MBC's, remove these random interrupts when your saber clashes for no reason, increase BP regen from pb's maybe not 8 because that was kind of stupid i admit, maybe to like 6, as for the halfswinging meta abuse i dont know how your going to combat that, but maybe reintroducing the above might make people re-think their playstyle's and not have everybody playing exactly the same.
 
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Tempest

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This is going to be a lot of repeated stuff from discussions, both internal and private. I'll try to avoid rambling too much.

To preface this:
I've been around a long time and played in pretty much every system aside from a short break during RC2 to whatever mishmash of RC# things before v0 as well as v1 to 1.3 (I started playing again early-mid 1.3 I believe, sometime in there). I've seen large ranges of attacker/defender bias, consistency in mechanics, relevancy of actual individual skill, and so on.

I don't think either (old saber blocking vs current PB zones) blocking system is truly consistent currently (I tested both a lot and they're both really only truly consistent in the same circumstances). Old system is pretty obvious but did at least feel more Star Wars-esque. Nudge helped counter the turtling that it allowed/encouraged (albeit things like the fast halfswing and getting ACM even on non-body hits helped quite a bit). Nudge doesn't work in the current system because it's just automatically bypassing the already weird defense system (and ironically, in the last patches it was a part of, the only good thing was that it didn't let you defend during it, which was a bug). PBing is more skillful/consistent for the most part but the blocking wasn't the actual skillful part of the old builds. It was all based on timing of your attacks. Without the saber blocking though, you get stuff like fidget spinner yaw spam that makes you just kind of wonder "how did we get to this point?". That then leads to having dumb stuff like neutering combo damage and ending up with another 1.4 clone which is just so much fun. Bad zones don't help either (at least everyone can see how dumb they are now with the indicators, lol).

I believe the biggest issue currently is that almost every part of the system is extremely homogenized. There's such a lack of variety that I don't even care who's behind the saber anymore because there's basically a guarantee they're going to be dueling 90% identical to literally everyone else (mostly just a small variation in how much they yaw). That's not their fault. It's just how the system is now. There's no/very little variation in timing on the styles themselves (see old Yellow's mix of swing timings as one of the best things about the older builds) and now, with the vastly misinterpreted (it was just supposed to be changed so that you didn't get stuck when hit in certain circumstances..) changes to how countering works, every style basically has the same ability to counter (except for Red in a lot of cases because it's Red) with the same timing. Then there's the inconsistent insta-swings off of hitting someone mid-swing (which @Stassin says is intentional and he wants it to stay). Super clunky, annoying, and outright boring/unfun to play. It's just been going further and further downhill for a long time.

A lot of NA players have left because of basically neutering aggression-favored playstyles (comboing does meh damage, leaves you open to counters at any point, which do as much, if not more, damage than an entire combo). This build (which is basically a modified 1.4, which shared a lot of the same characteristics) is essentially suited/designed for those who play more defensive or passive, or those who are fidget spinner halfswing spammers. It's not terribly difficult to counter that if you're experienced enough but it looks stupid and just shows the large success you can get with almost no finesse these days. Sadly, even those (mostly EU as its always favored more defensive/cautious play in general) duelists that this patch is basically suited for are realizing the above.

/endrant

I'm going to be working on polishing up the build that was last Open Beta'd (I've been working on it on and off but work took a lot of time and now I have school to absorb a bunch). @Defiant and I will figure out the best way for people to participate and keep people updated on that.
 

Stassin

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Another repeated discussion indeed.

I don't think either (old saber blocking vs current PB zones) blocking system is truly consistent currently (I tested both a lot and they're both really only truly consistent in the same circumstances). Old system is pretty obvious but did at least feel more Star Wars-esque. Nudge helped counter the turtling that it allowed/encouraged (albeit things like the fast halfswing and getting ACM even on non-body hits helped quite a bit). Nudge doesn't work in the current system because it's just automatically bypassing the already weird defense system (and ironically, in the last patches it was a part of, the only good thing was that it didn't let you defend during it, which was a bug). PBing is more skillful/consistent for the most part but the blocking wasn't the actual skillful part of the old builds. It was all based on timing of your attacks. Without the saber blocking though, you get stuff like fidget spinner yaw spam that makes you just kind of wonder "how did we get to this point?". That then leads to having dumb stuff like neutering combo damage and ending up with another 1.4 clone which is just so much fun. Bad zones don't help either (at least everyone can see how dumb they are now with the indicators, lol).
That's the more difficult question of all here, and we definitely need to experiment more with PB mechanics. That said, as much as you despise "yawing", i've seen a fair share of EU players using it skillfully (actually intentionally aiming the saber swing to either make the swing hit faster or slower, so as to press on the attack or confuse the enemy's timing) as opposed to madly and randomly (which in turn serves little purpose because it doesn't give much of an advantage at all, apart from confusing yourself). So this is definitely a good mechanic in my book, which actually isn't tied to the current PB mechanic, because it's rather something meant to control the timing of your own swing hitting, via aiming (which is a saving grace for this melee system that is part of a freakin shooter game).

Then there's the inconsistent insta-swings off of hitting someone mid-swing (which @Stassin says is intentional and he wants it to stay)
I don't understand what you mean though, because that's EXACTLY how it worked in all patches from v0 to v1.3, with the exception in v0 that swings in their middle (harmful) phase would actually not "turn into instaswings", but instead they'd just completely ignore getting hit and continue uninterrupted even faster. Hence why it is indeed intentional to have that back, and why i also want to bring the "uninterrupted" part back too due to the increased feeling of freedom over your attacks that it gave in these previous patches. So yeah, as per usual it just seems like you don't remember that that was how it worked, or remember too vaguely despite constantly assuring that you understand everything perfectly, and just randomly blame me for simply bringing back a mechanic because you want it to work differently (thanks to viserys we even all got to test v1.3 too so there's actually no room to argue about this...). Well, after 2 years i'm used to it so please continue.

There's no/very little variation in timing on the styles themselves (see old Yellow's mix of swing timings as one of the best things about the older builds) and now, with the vastly misinterpreted (it was just supposed to be changed so that you didn't get stuck when hit in certain circumstances..) changes to how countering works, every style basically has the same ability to counter (except for Red in a lot of cases because it's Red) with the same timing
The only thing you're accusing here is halfswing speeds, nothing else. I agree they need to be more diverse, but this isn't the issue with homogenizing the styles, after all the current state isn't that different from older builds since with the previous halfswings pre-v1.4, all styles had faster halfswings on right-to-left directions and slower ones on left-to-right directions. It's not really a variety between styles that there was, rather just a variety of halfswing speeds depending on direction, even for a single style. And that, in turn, would be good to have again although it pairs poorly with the current PB mechanic (a slower swing is a guaranteed PB), so there's PB work to do there with this anyways.

A lot of NA players have left because of basically neutering aggression-favored playstyles (comboing does meh damage, leaves you open to counters at any point, which do as much, if not more, damage than an entire combo). This build (which is basically a modified 1.4, which shared a lot of the same characteristics) is essentially suited/designed for those who play more defensive or passive, or those who are fidget spinner halfswing spammers. It's not terribly difficult to counter that if you're experienced enough but it looks stupid and just shows the large success you can get with almost no finesse these days. Sadly, even those (mostly EU as its always favored more defensive/cautious play in general) duelists that this patch is basically suited for are realizing the above.
I mean, i see people saying that there's only one playstyle that's viable and all, but it certainly doesn't feel that way on EU duel servers. Everytime i join to play, the seasoned duelists always seem to recognize my playstyle despite me intentionally using random aliases. I don't know everyone even on the EU side, far from it, but when dueling it's pretty obvious to me that for example people like A Jew, Hessu, Rosey, SK5, Recourse, Aaron, all have quite different playstyles, yet are all still able to perform very well on levels that are about of the same order. As for "defense" being too easy, i don't think i need to answer that again, as EU duelists have more than shown that it isn't so hard to attack once you've put some basic effort into it (which you usually describe as boring...), actually it's more interesting than before where you'd just deal dmg by default when landing hits without having to worry about your footwork much. Now you HAVE to use your footwork to avoid getting PBed, you can't just randomize your swing direction and be done with it. This is definitely a good aspect that needs to be kept, it's just that the power of PB needs to be toned down (then again, even on that there is dissension in the community...).

I'll keep an eye out for the good things you bring in your build. But i can't take it seriously as a whole when i know you desperately plan to bring back things like v1.1-v1.4 type perks which are decidedly absurd (and i mean, they were my ideas at first, i've just learned from my mistakes here...), so i'll do experiments of my own too.
 
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Tempest

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I never said there wasn’t skillful yawing. That also wasn’t what I was referring to. I also dont’t despise yawing. I just find it annoying when people are flailing around and are actually some kind of decent threat when they can’t see who they’re hitting on their screen for half the duel.

I never said anything about the level of skill in the patch in general. There is skill to it. But there’s still quite a few inconsistencies.

Uninterrupted swings are completely different than the swings instantly restarting when hit. I had one duel last night where I hit my opponent multiple times off of one swing because I body hit him, he swung right as that happened, then I got another swing off of it (it actually looked like it was almost one motion aside from the block animation). This whole mechanic in itself removes a lot of the skill because it throws a lot of timing out the window. It’s basically pseudo-RNG for multi-attacks. I don’t see how anyone would want that or think it’s a good thing to have involved.

Lastly, in regards to swing timing; no I’m not referring to just halfswing speeds. Chaining speeds weren’t the same either. I know Yellow had different timing on pretty much everything it could do, whether it was chains or halfswings.

Typing this remotely so I probably missed some stuff.
 

Stassin

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Chaining speeds weren’t the same either.
They were not touched for any style other than blue in any patch since v1.0. It is problematic to fantasize about things that are false then make decisions based on that, i know that firsthand since at first i firmly believed there were no leftover hitbox changes in v1.5 from your open beta build, when in fact there were.
 

Jaikanatar

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But maybe it's about time to yolo and cater to the minority.

Is this sarcasm or is this real life


I'm going to be working on polishing up the build that was last Open Beta'd (I've been working on it on and off but work took a lot of time and now I have school to absorb a bunch). @Defiant and I will figure out the best way for people to participate and keep people updated on that.

I like this logic a lot more ^ Tempest does a good job of considering the majority's opinion and that's important to a lot of people
 
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Stassin

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Is this sarcasm or is this real life




I like this logic a lot more ^ Tempest does a good job of considering the majority's opinion and that's important to a lot of people
You might think i listen to general feedback less than Tempest, because of some drama on the discord server and me venting frustration due to other problems, but that's not actually the case. The major improvement in the development process that only got introduced a while after v1.4 is doing open betas, which is what Tempest is doing and i will also be doing.You're gonna say there was no open beta for v1.5, well you're right but there was no time unless the patch was delayed another 6 months or more (which wouldn't have been that great considering the saber system hadn't changed since v1.4.5, so for about 1 year, and not exactly everyone was very happy about it); v1.5 might not have pleased you, but it certainly pleased a large part of the EU dueling community (are you gonna argue that that's a minority ?), and oh how surprising considering most of the feedback i got when testing internally was from EU duelists.

Was i right to answer this like a human or was it another person in "online bullying mode" waiting for a target to feed him ? No, i should be positive i guess.
 

Lessen

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If I may say something completely inane, it's pretty interesting watching how consistently Stassin and Tempest are at odds with each other. If we're heading towards having Stassin's Open Beta and Tempest's Open Beta running in parallel, that'd be pretty entertaining to watch, and maybe it'd lead to some combination of the two in the end.
 

{Δ} Achilles

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that'd be pretty entertaining to watch.

fbGMwvQ.png



But in all honesty I don't even feel like giving Stassin the benefit of the doubt anymore. I've been through 1.4, and now 1.5, and frankly I don't have any faith in him. I'm putting my money on Tempest.
 
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fbGMwvQ.png



But in all honesty I don't even feel like giving Stassin the benefit of the doubt anymore. I've been through 1.4, and now 1.5, and frankly I don't have any faith in him. I'm putting my money on Tempest.
liked for the meme not the schnide comment XD
 

Tempest

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Stassin said:
but it certainly pleased a large part of the EU dueling community (are you gonna argue that that's a minority ?), and oh how surprising considering most of the feedback i got when testing internally was from EU duelists.
Seems like most of those have changed their opinion at this point. I know a lot who think it's an improvement but don't actually like/enjoy the patch at all anymore (assuming they liked it in the first place).
 
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Reading that is meaningful because despite wanting nudge back desperately myself, i've always kept it at bay since pretty much all players who
didn't play before v1.1 elaborate on how bad it is. But maybe it's about time to yolo and cater to the minority.

Stay in retirement reeeeeeeeeeeee
 
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For the record I enjoyed 1.5 quite a lot, aside from a few minor complaints. I don't enjoy 1.5.1, I feel like it was a rushed reply from Stassin to all the complainers about 1.5 but beta team didn't get to test it thoroughly enough and it turned out to be buggy, so that part is on us aswell I guess.
 

Stassin

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Just for the record, when saying this i only meant about the same thing as tempest means here:

VUj6ucy.jpg


My way with words is just more abrupt, because i don't ever want to devolve in bamboozling which i hate with a passion. But yeah, sometimes there are better ways to word stuff without devolving into that at all, as tempest did here.
 
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k4far

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enrichment for sabering is good
mix builds
diversity gives it strength


[UPDATES WELCOME!]
 
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