pretty well by people who had basic understending of all mechanics and used to do well in general (duel/open)
pretty negatively by people who used to cheese different spams, free mblocks
also negatively by fans of vintage people like Achilles who like better a completely different build from the past and they do not support current direction. Achilles is in fact right about this build being dull here and there...
I did in fact play a bit of 1.3 and I am not really happy about it. In controlled environment I can disarm you, PB everything, shadowswing, air yaw etc. This is all still possible because dueling is always about the same. Significanc3 of different mechanics changes, they change and so on. I did have fun in both 1.4 and 1.5. Lots of nuisances for me personally got removed in the 1.5 however it does not mean this build is perfect. This build requires a ton of work with people who fucking hate it right now and the author togheter. I honestly can't tell if I miss the perks but I wouldn't mind to get some perks Achilles speaks so fondly about. For me, the worst thing in 1.4 was the facehug spam and it's still a thing.
I want to make Duals a glass cannon so you would feel like wielding double yellow with the downside it being very fragile. This style would require you to DODGE not PB. But Stassin is completely against, was some time ago from what I read. Well, if you don't try who knows.
Duals are already powerful if you know how to go on the offensive halfswing/2-hit combo spam. Once you get chained by the opponent with duals you're pretty much dead. On the other hand, if you make one mistake, get slapped or are too late for the swing - you're pretty much dead too.
You are still missing the point, depopulation was happening when Disney took over, our own dramas in that time etc. Your curren5 state kf dueling competition has to do with much more than just the present build.
Well, do not forget movies get released frequently I would be still tryharding about star wars and shit if I could honestly believe in it as I used to before. I do not give a damn now I am looking for new frontier exploration sci-fi that has less real life bullshit atm. The great amount of work previous movies have shown us is being trampled by some greedy joss with twisted morale. You will witness people leaving because SW will no longer be a THING.
I'm talking about bringing back the old PB style, not sure if you were around for that but it was 100% better. No random guessing where they are going to swing from, no random interrupts like you get in this current build. Nudging, halfswings, real effective combos. The system has completely fallen from where it once was.
Yes and that old pb style you are talking about is nb. I've been playing since 1.3 so i havent played older builds than that but i know how that works like. Pbing should be like it was on 1.4 builds imo
And I would test everything in open if closed tests are not good enough to get rid of bugs, do not rush releases (yet another person claming this build is full of bugs), take a month more to release something enjoyable. I do understand you want to give new content as soon as possible to silenc3 somebody saying developers are not trying but quality over quantity -the iron rule!
Set up a server with sabering in development have people be able to join, put a name to link with files everyone interested in giving feedback cn do it 24/7. Actually, come to this server mak3 changes on it live as you get feedback and you are free of any blame if people still complain, it's also their fault. After this functions for a longer while. We have had timed open betas of sabring but that's not enough. Also, if feedback is scsrce do not wrap up this testing space it should stay for months and be always of help to you.
k4 bro no one actually cares that its a star wars game except the fat redheaded american kids
if this combat was medieval themed we'd all still play it - the mechanics are why the mod is dropping off in terms of duel mode, not because people are less interested in star wars
as far as old pb'ing goes i'd rather not go there. pleasing old players never works (look at Sev, who adored this build and now never plays again, no offense to him just a fact).
the people who need to be happy with the build are the active members of the biggest clans, listen to people from J and Tin.
U have to kind of look at who the new oldfags are, people like hessu, sk5, punk and all of the TIN/J topdogs who are still wanting the game to be good. its pointless pleasing those who enjoyed the game 10 years ago because their interests will have changed hugely and nostalgia will have corrupted how 'good' the mod used to be
most of the new oldfags cite 1.3 is the best build, in terms of balance, freedom to play how you want and damages etc so just make 1.3 again and see what they would improve about it
I think you played 1.3, correct me if I am wrong @noel. I personally I didn't like Viserys hosted 1.3 on some french server, not sure it's still around. I am not really willing to learn much anymore I want the basics I know be always viable and still get to experience something 'new'. If you could set up a 1.3 server I will play it a bit more. It's up to the people to decide what this game goes with in the future anyway. It was really interesting to watch, seeing people trying to persuade Stassin in doing changes to his sabering it was like taking a candy from a child xd
I think you played 1.3, correct me if I am wrong @noel. I personally I didn't like Viserys hosted 1.3 on some french server, not sure it's still around. I am not really willing to learn much anymore I want the basics I know be always viable and still get to experience something 'new'. If you could set up a 1.3 server I will play it a bit more. It's up to the people to decide what this game goes with in the future anyway. It was really interesting to watch, seeing people trying to persuade Stassin in doing changes to his sabering it was like taking a candy from a child xd
as far as old pb'ing goes i'd rather not go there. pleasing old players never works (look at Sev, who adored this build and now never plays again, no offense to him just a fact).
its pointless pleasing those who enjoyed the game 10 years ago because their interests will have changed hugely and nostalgia will have corrupted how 'good' the mod used to be
As a somewhat "older" player I have to ask, has it ever occurred to you that the majority of the deep-seated dueling playerbase departed during unpopular and heavily criticized builds such as RC2 and V1.1? Pleasing the "old" dueling playerbase did in fact work, but the two aforementioned builds disrupted the health of dueling for the majority of the playerbase back then. The perfect block mechanic that you're hesitant to explore was in the game from Build 15 up to V1.1. I don't have B15's exact release date, but it was close to a full decade of the same blocking ideology (though admittedly much different code). It definitely was not perfect, but it was one of the core aspects that separated this mod from base, and other dueling titles at the time. When someone asked what differentiated MBII from the base game or JA+, one of the top 3 answers usually paraded the well thought out blocking and attack system.
It's an unfortunate truth that between RC3 and V1 there was a stagnation and decline in dueling, but when V1.1 released it was the final straw for many of the last remaining veteran duelists on NA servers. I can list off several duelists, all of whom put their heart and soul into the saber system, that never could come to grips with what dueling became afterwards.
When dueling started focusing on everything but the actual saber interaction itself, the magic simply vanished. Nudging was made irrelevant and removed. A, D, and W swings were (and still are) actually a liability because they shared two PB zones instead of one. Halfswings were intentionally slowed down. Interrupt damage was reduced and the parry window was massively increased, in turn making good interrupts and timing a non-factor. The core ideology of dueling that had years of consistency and backing - the saber on saber interaction - disappeared overnight. For those who have not played the previous builds, here is a very crude depiction of blocking pre and post 1.1.
The yellow circles are where your focus and attention is spent. If you're not sure about it, watch this video and see how often you aren't looking at both sabers clash in this video, instead opting to look for the next green or red arrows to show up.
If you ever put quarters into one of these machines and seriously wanted to win, you'd quickly notice it forces you to look at all the corners of the screen, and doesn't focus on what's important - the duel in front of your face.
I believe the same problem exists with the current PB system. The positioning of the lightsaber was heavily disincentivized in favor of hitting invisible zones with your camera to stay alive and win a duel. This is my opinion: it's not fun. This is what I personally believe turned off the majority of duelists who respected the old blocking system. The system had its flaws that could have been worked on more, but alternatively the post-1.1 blocking system was pushed out. I'm a firm believer that the flair and appeal of the prior systems was lost in the process. Dueling was transformed from a momentum based, personal one-on-one in your face conflict into a literal arcade blocker in one patch.
Following V1.1 there was a mass exodus of the remaining prominent NA duelists, and the scene went dark until the next wave of players and devs picked up the pieces and fell in love with the game. There is definitely positive reception from players who did not play pre 1.1 when it comes to dueling today, and there is nothing wrong with that. But to claim that pleasing the "old" playerbase doesn't work is objectively inaccurate coming from someone who loved and relished what the MBII community was during its hayday.
I feel bad for Stassin and Tempest both for this reason. They are among the select few still around today who have played through the majority of the saber systems. They are currently attempting to further the mod in their own ways, for a playerbase which hasn't had the opportunity to experience half of what they themselves have.
Most of the duelists that Stassin and Tempest originally learned with, dueled, fought against, lost to and triumphed over have came and gone years ago. They are tasked with deciding what is best for the overall game's health for a playerbase that did not experience the game in its (opinionated) "prime". It's a difficult spot to be in.
I never got into the old saber system. I'm sure it had it's merits and maybe if I invested more time in it I would have seen it's magic too, but my memories of it are blury. The reason I also never got into it is because in my case community was even more toxic and unfriendly towards new players back then. There were no dueling clans back then to help get and KEEP new players, great duelists were always just wrecking you and barely ever sharing any tips even if asked. You had robots like Melkz who would just come on the server and keep wrecking you wether you want it or not until you ragequit without saying a word. Clans might have brought drama, but they also made many many new players feel welcome, like they're a part of something and managed to learn the game easier. It's why I spent most of my time in MB2 from 1.3 onward. I'd never go back to anything before that, because in my memory it's just so distant and unwelcoming. Just my experience and opinion of course.
Piggybacking off of what Firestrike said, I think if the old PB style is indeed readded then we should also consider reintroducing nudge. Nudge was an essential part of the sabering system that I believe(not 100% sure) was removed because it didn't mesh well with the new PB system. For those who don't know, nudge was a feature that allowed you to quickly initiate a swing by bumping your saber into the opponent, your swing would bounce back and you could then engage with a quick swing/half swing.
Here's a video showing what nudge looks like.
Nudge allowed you to punish players who prefer to turtle down when low on BP, it allowed you to chain together amazing combos, and it allowed you to KEEP momentum in a fight. Momentum... this is something that just does not exist anymore. Like Firestrike said, dueling is now just like that arcade game, there simply is no momentum in fights like there used to be. Nudge alongside the old quick half swings would allow you to keep your momentum, chain together combos, and destroy the other player.
Since we're already on about bringing back nudge, let's go ahead and talk about half swings. Yes it's a swing but only quicker. After your first swing you could then initiate a swing that was considerably faster with the A swing. The timing was tricky (If you're doing it for the first time) and it was very rewarding. You could use it not only on the offense but also defensively. Whether you need to chain more combos on the guy who is running away or to try and catch someone off guard while you're trying to regain BP. Silly it was ever removed (or slowed) as it was the centerpiece of dueling for ages.
Here's a video of half swing, I believe this is version 1.0 JUMP TO 2:18
These features made dueling what it truly is. Ever since these were taken out the state of dueling has sadly declined.
great duelists were always just wrecking you and barely ever sharing any tips even if asked. You had robots like Melkz who would just come on the server and keep wrecking you wether you want it or not until you ragequit without saying a word.
Most of the real duelists left by v0/1.0 such as Xan, ^Hunter, Crasc, Blaze, Shylix/Slywood, Corsair, Cronus, Superman, Shade, Firestrike, and I could name 20 more. Only a couple good duelists were left on NA, Melkz and myself practiced hours to get as good as we were in v1.0. I tried to help anyone out if they asked but yeah a lot of duelists didn't like to help out for some reason(ego). I understand if you have a hate for those earlier builds, but that doesn't solidify that the dueling system was worse then.
I'm not saying it was worse back then. I was around since v0 but I don't remember enough of that system in order to judge if it's better or worse than now. Just sharing my experience from it.
Reading that is meaningful because despite wanting nudge back desperately myself, i've always kept it at bay since pretty much all players who didn't play before v1.1 elaborate on how bad it is. But maybe it's about time to yolo and cater to the minority.
Reading that is meaningful because despite wanting nudge back desperately myself, i've always kept it at bay since pretty much all players who didn't play before v1.1 elaborate on how bad it is. But maybe it's about time to yolo and cater to the minority.
Can somebody do side by side comparision of swings with and without nudge or a .gif idk. I remember I didn't like old builds with nudge for some reason they also had bullshit like semi-pb if I am not mistaken maybe those two things do not go well at once.
- using heal to cancel a move, which allows you to reset your combo or instantly cancel a blue lunge, ydfa, rdfa, and stab.
- saber twirl, switching to melee then back to saber to swing faster allowing for more dynamic and stylized dueling.
- Pre 1.1 PB mechanic, just bring back putting the lightsaber in between yourself and your opponents swing, no need to kill your wrist in order to PB.
- Bring back NUDGE, omg was dueling so much better when you could nudge -> combo -> half-swing -> combo -> slap -> combo -> heal(to reset combo) -> nudge -> halfswing -> combo -> win duel.
The thing that dueling lacks anymore is creativity and style. No longer are we allowed to have fun with our dueling, no more healing to reset combos, stabs, and special moves. No more twirling the lightsaber to quickly get a red swing in your combo, no more halfswings... What actually happened to this mod. Dueling used to be the big appeal to this mod (IMO) now there really is none. This is why I left 2+ years ago.
Can we not suck people who already quit, unless they come back here and top those who are still playing with the amount of their voices. Just replace current PBing with v1.1 version then consider some perks to add, fix the timings issue Achilles has. Nudge is technically a bug, why would you reintroduce a bug again... way to run in circles.
I may get flamed for this post, but I feel like some things may need to be said after reading the majority of this thread.
Disclaimer: these are paraphrased quotes
As a somewhat "older" player I have to ask, has it ever occurred to you that the majority of the deep-seated dueling playerbase departed during unpopular and heavily criticized builds such as RC2 and V1.1? Pleasing the "old" dueling playerbase did in fact work, but the two aforementioned builds disrupted the health of dueling for the majority of the playerbase back then. The perfect block mechanic that you're hesitant to explore was in the game from Build 15 up to V1.1. I don't have B15's exact release date, but it was close to a full decade of the same blocking ideology (though admittedly much different code). It definitely was not perfect, but it was one of the core aspects that separated this mod from base, and other dueling titles at the time. When someone asked what differentiated MBII from the base game or JA+, one of the top 3 answers usually paraded the well thought out blocking and attack system.
It's an unfortunate truth that between RC3 and V1 there was a stagnation and decline in dueling, but when V1.1 released it was the final straw for many of the last remaining veteran duelists on NA servers. I can list off several duelists, all of whom put their heart and soul into the saber system, that never could come to grips with what dueling became afterwards.
When dueling started focusing on everything but the actual saber interaction itself, the magic simply vanished. Nudging was made irrelevant and removed. A, D, and W swings were (and still are) actually a liability because they shared two PB zones instead of one. Halfswings were intentionally slowed down. Interrupt damage was reduced and the parry window was massively increased, in turn making good interrupts and timing a non-factor. The core ideology of dueling that had years of consistency and backing - the saber on saber interaction - disappeared overnight. For those who have not played the previous builds, here is a very crude depiction of blocking pre and post 1.1.
The yellow circles are where your focus and attention is spent. If you're not sure about it, watch this video and see how often you aren't looking at both sabers clash in this video, instead opting to look for the next green or red arrows to show up.
If you ever put quarters into one of these machines and seriously wanted to win, you'd quickly notice it forces you to look at all the corners of the screen, and doesn't focus on what's important - the duel in front of your face.
I believe the same problem exists with the current PB system. The positioning of the lightsaber was heavily disincentivized in favor of hitting invisible zones with your camera to stay alive and win a duel. This is my opinion: it's not fun. This is what I personally believe turned off the majority of duelists who respected the old blocking system. The system had its flaws that could have been worked on more, but alternatively the post-1.1 blocking system was pushed out. I'm a firm believer that the flair and appeal of the prior systems was lost in the process. Dueling was transformed from a momentum based, personal one-on-one in your face conflict into a literal arcade blocker in one patch.
Following V1.1 there was a mass exodus of the remaining prominent NA duelists, and the scene went dark until the next wave of players and devs picked up the pieces and fell in love with the game. There is definitely positive reception from players who did not play pre 1.1 when it comes to dueling today, and there is nothing wrong with that. But to claim that pleasing the "old" playerbase doesn't work is objectively inaccurate coming from someone who loved and relished what the MBII community was during its hayday.
I feel bad for Stassin and Tempest both for this reason. They are among the select few still around today who have played through the majority of the saber systems. They are currently attempting to further the mod in their own ways, for a playerbase which hasn't had the opportunity to experience half of what they themselves have.
Most of the duelists that Stassin and Tempest originally learned with, dueled, fought against, lost to and triumphed over have came and gone years ago. They are tasked with deciding what is best for the overall game's health for a playerbase that did not experience the game in its (opinionated) "prime". It's a difficult spot to be in.
However:
This is a direction that may ultimately work out better for the game's overall health. Good luck to both of you.
Dueling is definitely not like in that arcade game you posted, you still need to focus on the enemy and watch his movements to see what kind of swings he's about to do and then move your camera in order to pb.
Reading that is meaningful because despite wanting nudge back desperately myself, i've always kept it at bay since pretty much all players who didn't play before v1.1 elaborate on how bad it is. But maybe it's about time to yolo and cater to the minority.
I know a lot of players who played prior to v1.1 and didn't like nudge. I went back and played those old versions, and while they are viable saber systems, they are less consistent than the more modern PB system. It isn't worth going back that far, because we'll just go in circles. The saber system evolved for a reason, and unfortunately it has gone waaaaay too far off track with 1.5+, and that is due to your reasoning of listening to the minority/yourself.
And Firestrike, while I respect your standing as a great NA duelist in the past, you have to understand that pre 1.1 is waaaay too far back. I remember when 1.4 released you said you liked it a lot, but then immediately stopped playing. Every iteration past 1.3 lost more of the old duelists, despite many of them saying they liked it. I don't think the old duelists know what they want beyond "I want that old nostalgia".
That being said, I think I know a way to implement a way that you don't need to focus on PBing. A way that will accomplish that old 'saber matters', but still require input and consistent skill.
