Tempest's Saber Build

[pelmeņu lauks]

Yup. That would make fighting multiple opponents impossible.

Personally, my recommendations are a Chivalry style-chase mechanic, where the longer you stare at someone, you gradually go forward faster, until you reach a cap of like 15-20%. Alternatively, overhauling how movement works.

Interesting to say the least. Seeing the way pb indicators work, I can imagine this sort of thing being possible to be implemented.

 

[PuNk]

What about a slight movement speed slow after swinging while running? I think there was a beta with something similar like that this year.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

What about a slight movement speed slow after swinging while running? I think there was a beta with something similar like that this year.

That makes fighting multiple opponents extremely difficult if not impossible. A chase mechanic should not impede your ability to dodge, just your ability to run away forever.

 

[Lessen]

What about buffing Pull 1/2 to drag people a bit without knocking em down, so you could have a low-cost "get back here" ability.

(edit: context, I'm a bit hostile to the idea of adding a chase mechanic, because it would... complicate situations. It would have side effects on more situations than just the "chasing another saberist" situation.)

(Meanwhile, buffing Pull 1-2 to drag running people a little would have very little effect on Saber v Gunner. Pull 3 would remain able to drag walking people and knockdown running people. Pull 1-2 would do nothing to walking people. As it currently does.)

(Random fun fact for readers: Buying Push 1 and Pull 1 together costs 4 points and gives you projectile repulsion AND the ability to punish running gunners. Good thing to know for making crazy builds with stretched budgets.)

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

What about buffing Pull 1/2 to drag people a bit without knocking em down, so you could have a low-cost "get back here" ability.

The issue being you would require the Jedi to be low on FP or be force focused which is not feasible in most dueling situations.

(edit: context, I'm a bit hostile to the idea of adding a chase mechanic, because it would... complicate situations. It would have side effects on more situations than just the "chasing another saberist" situation.)

Like what situations? Jedi/Sith should not be slower than hero/BH/Wookiee. Since Jedi/Sith is a dedicated melee class they should always be able to catch up to another class. Regardless of force powers.

(Meanwhile, buffing Pull 1-2 to drag running people a little would have very little effect on Saber v Gunner. Pull 3 would remain able to drag walking people and knockdown running people. Pull 1-2 would do nothing to walking people. As it currently does.)

Again, requiring focus which is not feasible.

 

[Lessen]

Supposing we don't mess with the current movement model, I'm against anything that would result in a Jedi/Sith wiggling at me any faster than they already do. So if a saberist can stare at me for a little while and gain a speed boost by doing so then I'mma be sad.

Also while I recognize that saberists "should be able to catch up to other classes," I also wanna point out from my gunny perspective that if gunners get worse at catching up to saberists (like if you made saberist base speed equal or higher than BH/Hero, which I know was something you were interested in) it'll get harder to close the deal vs saberists who try to retreat and recharge their FP. .. And a chase mechanic would help there, admittedly. If it applied to all classes.

Minor jank situations of a straightforwardly implemented chase mechanic:
1. Flanker rushes flank faster than expected because he was chasing your teammate.
2. Saberist stares at frontline and then jumps/runs past em at +20% speed and kills someone else further back.
3. As mentioned: saberist stares at gunner for a few seconds and then gets really fast and hard to hit. Although I suppose the gunner would also speed up. Which would be funny.

..Actually, that has some even weirder implications if chase mechanic is applied to all classes: In a gunfight you're going to be aiming in front of people to lead them, not AT them. But if you aim AT them you'll get a speed boost.

It just has weird side effects if implemented straightforwardly (stare at someone: speed up.) But that's just how you described it. I went and googled Chiv's chase mechanic and how it works in Chiv is actually basically if you're running (and not attacking or anything) and you're looking at someone who's also running and also looking the same way (away from you), THEN you get a speed boost basically instantly, for as long as that state persists.

I'm not entirely opposed to putting that in (that'swhatshesaid). Would still have slight annoying cases where some guy running away trying to not die gives an enemy a speed boost to attack someone else unrelated. Especially if they preserve their increased speed by jumping. Also the concept itself (being able to increase your top speed but only if you're chasing someone) remains sort of unpleasant to me. It doesn't entirely make sense. Or something. Except in terms of Drafting (Wikipedia link). Ha ha. Or just murderous adrenaline.

Since sideways running is as fast as forwards running in MB2, then the speedboost would/should probably be triggered just by someone moving away from you (at at least a certain speed, so as to not apply to backpedaling) (and only while you're looking at them ofc). Regardless of what direction the target is facing. Something else you'd want to avoid would be making rushdown faceroll styles stronger by making it easier to get in (because you speed up if the enemy retreats).

 

[Lessen]

Doublepost for another followup technical thought. (I have my reasons for not wanting to just keep editing the previous post.)

I think if implemented the chase mechanic should apply for all classes. And should bump their speed to, like... 1.05.
For reference, BH/Hero and ARC/Clone (Sprinting) move at speed 1.00.
ET/Commander/Jedi/Sith/MeleeWook/MeleeSold move at 0.9 speed.
Mando moves at 0.85 (boo),
slow people (Sold, Wook, Nonsprinting ARC/Clone) move at... 0.75 iirc.

Given that Hero has Dash, I'm not sure how high the chase speed would have to be set to allow a chaser to for-sure catch up to a Hero who's just booking it. Perhaps chasespeed should depend on the regular speed of who you're chasing. So like, if you're chasing a soldier, you'd only be boosted to 0.85 at most (so most classes would get no boost at all when chasing a sold). Chasing a 0.9? Boost to 1.00. Chasing a 1.00? Boost to 1.1.

Would be pretty dang funny to see a Bowcaster Wook running at 1.1 speed after a Bounty Hunter. Jesus, just imagine it. That might be too crazy. Ditto for SBD zipping after a Hero. That'd be bad. So SBD and Bowcaster Wook shouldn't get chase at all cuz they're tanky sentinels not hunters. Melee Wook can get chase. (.... if you bought Strength 3. And have Melee equipped.)

For obvious reasons nobody can chase Deka and Deka can't chase anybody.

Also: No sure idea what the appropriate activation range would be. Not too long, to prevent abuse/jank. Pull range maybe?

Also not sure whether or not shooting should be allowed while chasing, or whether it should stop the boost. Perhaps only pistols should be fireable without canceling your speedboost.

And a disclaimer to everything I just said since I'm a "Dev": I'm just thinking out loud here. My thoughts do not indicate the agreement or approval of any other members of the dev team or anything at all really. They're just discussion of an idea.

 

[Eazy E]

Nothing like eating 60 or so BP damage because your white name opponent decided to swing half a second before you do. Or because for some reason you get locked into a blocking animation for 4 seconds and effectively die. It's also pretty great when it takes you 10 years to regen BP when staring at each other because ACM effectively doesn't matter at all.

I can actually count on my hands the amount of duels I've had where ACM even remotely played a role.

Learn good timing/how to properly use counter if you don't want to be combo interrupted.

Not necessarily, by changing the way ACM works to be somewhere inbetween 'ACM Wars' from 1.4, and nonexistent ACM from 1.5, you will make footwork matter more. Here in 1.5 I see people running away a lot, and that is something I noticed in 1.3, there is very little downside to running away. It is tougher to finish someone off in 1.3/1.5 than it was in 1.4.

ACM matters plenty to the correct playstyles, if you know how to use footwork to dodge attacks effectively then you can easily build ACM in this build. Plus with the huge boosts ACM gives this patch I prefer it over the previous "more but less" approach to ACM.

Timing mattered a LOT more in 1.3, despite the fact that you may not think so, there were far more timing disparities between swings/transitions that gave you far more options.

You must be joking right?

I've found with Tempest that one can have great AP/BP differences with perks and mechanical downsides. One can make Red stronger than the red in 1.5 via adding the downside from 1.3 where you couldn't continue a combo/half swing upon missing a swing.

I'm sorry I don't understand your point here.

Here is one of the ideas I had for a dual sabers perk that I'd like to test with Tempest at some point as an example:
Duel perk: Every successful body hit grants Duals an extra chain swing count (Does not gain ACM), ACM multiplier is applied to special attack. Duals can PB while swinging and in returns.

That would make duals pretty fucking OP. Also Perks are cancer they should never have been added in the first place.

Special attacks should be like they were in 1.3, if you watch this video:

You'll see how many strategies involved special attacks, but also how counterable they were, compared to patches since where they were either useless or overpowered.

Umm I don't think specials have changed much or at all since 1.3 aside from maybe the amount of damage they do. While on the note of special attacks I think pre 1.1 specials should make a comeback. Where you could pblock and mblock them (and even close your saber in the middle of them just for the keks). Perhaps change them so if you swingblock them (to avoid slap, force powers and mblock) the damage gets reduced heavily (down to 40% maybe?)

What do you mean the current ones? The ones no one likes? The transitions and restrictions from 1.3 were far superior, and the vast majority of duelists who went back to try 1.3 ended up loving them. I personally fell in love with 1.3 Yellow after all these years (I never played yellow back in 1.3).



We need to think of a better solution for people running away, I think making ACM matter more will help, but otherwise we need some sort of mechanic for chasing down opponents. I think lowering friction slightly as Lessen did in that test I did with him would actually help a lot in nerfing shadow-swinging appropriately.

Swing restrictions need a comeback I can't argue with you on that. However ACM helps catching opponents? How? If someone is half decent at shadow-swinging (knowing how to do it in a proper way not like a retard) then you should work on your timing to properly counter them or simply chase them (since swinging makes them run slightly slower if you just wait till your in close range of them before swinging you will land the hit). If they run like a retard and have no timing/rhythm then just use force pull, if you don't have force pull that's your own fault.
Saying ACM will help catch shadowswingers makes no sense.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Supposing we don't mess with the current movement model, I'm against anything that would result in a Jedi/Sith wiggling at me any faster than they already do. So if a saberist can stare at me for a little while and gain a speed boost by doing so then I'mma be sad.

Also while I recognize that saberists "should be able to catch up to other classes," I also wanna point out from my gunny perspective that if gunners get worse at catching up to saberists (like if you made saberist base speed equal or higher than BH/Hero, which I know was something you were interested in) it'll get harder to close the deal vs saberists who try to retreat and recharge their FP. .. And a chase mechanic would help there, admittedly. If it applied to all classes.

Minor jank situations of a straightforwardly implemented chase mechanic:
1. Flanker rushes flank faster than expected because he was chasing your teammate.
2. Saberist stares at frontline and then jumps/runs past em at +20% speed and kills someone else further back.
3. As mentioned: saberist stares at gunner for a few seconds and then gets really fast and hard to hit. Although I suppose the gunner would also speed up. Which would be funny.

..Actually, that has some even weirder implications if chase mechanic is applied to all classes: In a gunfight you're going to be aiming in front of people to lead them, not AT them. But if you aim AT them you'll get a speed boost.

It just has weird side effects if implemented straightforwardly (stare at someone: speed up.) But that's just how you described it. I went and googled Chiv's chase mechanic and how it works in Chiv is actually basically if you're running (and not attacking or anything) and you're looking at someone who's also running and also looking the same way (away from you), THEN you get a speed boost basically instantly, for as long as that state persists.

I'm not entirely opposed to putting that in (that'swhatshesaid). Would still have slight annoying cases where some guy running away trying to not die gives an enemy a speed boost to attack someone else unrelated. Especially if they preserve their increased speed by jumping. Also the concept itself (being able to increase your top speed but only if you're chasing someone) remains sort of unpleasant to me. It doesn't entirely make sense. Or something. Except in terms of Drafting (Wikipedia link). Ha ha. Or just murderous adrenaline.

Since sideways running is as fast as forwards running in MB2, then the speedboost would/should probably be triggered just by someone moving away from you (at at least a certain speed, so as to not apply to backpedaling) (and only while you're looking at them ofc). Regardless of what direction the target is facing. Something else you'd want to avoid would be making rushdown faceroll styles stronger by making it easier to get in (because you speed up if the enemy retreats).

It would apply to all classes, but the chase mechanic in Chivalry is very gradual, and only really works if the opponent is running **away** from you, not if they're just standing still.

1) I mean, as a Jedi you can already use speed to get some place faster than expected. A minor percentage bonus that takes time AND someone running away to occur is not only going to be rare, but not that big of a problem.

2) That wouldn't work.

3) The speed bonus doesn't work sideways, only forward. I don't think you're getting how Chivalry's speed mechanic worked in practice.

Anywho, the alternative is reworking how MB2's movement speed works entirely, and making it so that you're naturally much slower in all directions, but you can then use a sprinting button with animation to move FORWARD much faster. That would honestly be more ideal, but I know many people would be mindlessly opposed to it because "HURR DURR MAKES MB2 LESS QUAK--ERR UNIQUE"

Doublepost for another followup technical thought. (I have my reasons for not wanting to just keep editing the previous post.)

I think if implemented the chase mechanic should apply for all classes. And should bump their speed to, like... 1.05.
For reference, BH/Hero and ARC/Clone (Sprinting) move at speed 1.00.
ET/Commander/Jedi/Sith/MeleeWook/MeleeSold move at 0.9 speed.
Mando moves at 0.85 (boo),
slow people (Sold, Wook, Nonsprinting ARC/Clone) move at... 0.75 iirc.

The speed of gunners should really be normalized with those stats I gave you. There is no reason why BH and Hero should be faster than a melee-only Jedi. That is utter nonsense.

Given that Hero has Dash, I'm not sure how high the chase speed would have to be set to allow a chaser to for-sure catch up to a Hero who's just booking it. Perhaps chasespeed should depend on the regular speed of who you're chasing. So like, if you're chasing a soldier, you'd only be boosted to 0.85 at most (so most classes would get no boost at all when chasing a sold). Chasing a 0.9? Boost to 1.00. Chasing a 1.00? Boost to 1.1.

The amount of increase that the chase mechanic would give you could always be tweaked per-class.

Would be pretty dang funny to see a Bowcaster Wook running at 1.1 speed after a Bounty Hunter. Jesus, just imagine it. That might be too crazy. Ditto for SBD zipping after a Hero. That'd be bad. So SBD and Bowcaster Wook shouldn't get chase at all cuz they're tanky sentinels not hunters. Melee Wook can get chase. (.... if you bought Strength 3. And have Melee equipped.)

Again, obviously tweakable, though SBD should never get it. Even if they did get it 1.20x nothing is still nothing.

For obvious reasons nobody can chase Deka and Deka can't chase anybody.

Also: No sure idea what the appropriate activation range would be. Not too long, to prevent abuse/jank. Pull range maybe?

If you need to stare at someone in pull range to activate the chase mechanic, that defeats the purpose of the chase mechanic, because then you can just pull them. It has to be infinite range, really. So that you can catch up to people running away at far distances, otherwise they can just run forward as certain classes. The whole purpose of the chase mechanic is to catch up when they are outside of force range, or being very hard to focus.

Also not sure whether or not shooting should be allowed while chasing, or whether it should stop the boost. Perhaps only pistols should be fireable without canceling your speedboost.

Depends on the form it takes. As I said above, modifying movement and adding an actual sprint would be ideal, because then the sprint grants you forward movement whilst negating your ability to attack, and then you could add the chase mechanic ontop of that which would balance it much better.

 

[Lessen]

It would apply to all classes, but the chase mechanic in Chivalry is very gradual, and only really works if the opponent is running **away** from you, not if they're just standing still.

Per the Reddit thread I read that claimed to be drawing its facts from "the code," the speed-up actually happens really quickly (100ms) but the visual animations happen more slowly, creating an impression of a gradual acceleration. Maybe this was changed though? I don't know. But yes, I do get that it only happens if they're running away. And if you'd want the MB2 chase speed-up to be gradual, I could do that. (In theory. If any of this happens at all. Pending response from more authoritative devs.)

I do agree it should be gradual, actually, largely because if the speedup happened really quickly then it would have side-effects on certain footwork scenarios.

3) The speed bonus doesn't work sideways, only forward. I don't think you're getting how Chivalry's speed mechanic worked in practice.

I think I just was thinking of it a bit wrong since I was thinking about specifics of how to implement it, instead of just about gameplay elements. Certainly the boost could be made to only apply when running forwards. In Chivalry, running forwards is already faster than running to the side (can you even "run" to the side in Chiv?). So yeah, different games. But anyway, what you were replying to was invalidated by later parts of my pondering-out-loud. Which is kinda my fault. I was also openly just responding to the idea of "what if you sped up if you looked at someone who was running away," and taking it as-is. I was not responding to the Chiv Chase Mechanic specifically. Just to you, and what you'd said. And how, as-is, it had bad side effects.

And just to reiterate, supposing we keep siderun as fast as forwardrun, then you should be able to chase someone who's siderunning away from you (by forwardrunning at them). Obviously enough.

The speed of gunners should really be normalized with those stats I gave you. There is no reason why BH and Hero should be faster than a melee-only Jedi. That is utter nonsense.

I like the extra boost for how it helps a little in being able to dance around Jedi. And the chase mechanic would mean you wouldn't be able to just book it flat-out anyway. And besides, Push 3 exists, and punishes overuse of that high movespeed (unless you're already far away and just stalling by running further ofc).

On that note...

If you need to stare at someone in pull range to activate the chase mechanic, that defeats the purpose of the chase mechanic, because then you can just pull them. It has to be infinite range, really. So that you can catch up to people running away at far distances, otherwise they can just run forward as certain classes. The whole purpose of the chase mechanic is to catch up when they are outside of force range, or being very hard to focus.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm....................... true, but at the same time, that would technically mean that you could rush at someone in front of and near you by looking at the back of some random person in the distant background who happens to be running away (to check flank, for example). That would be a really unpleasant side effect even if it only occasionally happened. It's just gross. Would take some more work to, say, make it only apply if the person-running-away is the FIRST person the scan-for-targets reaches, with the scan-for-targets being a pretty wide cone...... but with chase only actually activating if you're looking accurately at someone. (Hell, maybe that last addendum isn't necessary. If the nearest or only person in front of you in a wide huge long cone is running away from you then even if you aren't looking directly at them you may as well get a speed boost.)

Anyway point being you would be unable to chase someone if they have an ally closer to you in front of you. Which seems reasonable. And prevents situational exploits.

(edit: Although I just realized that in the case where you're chasing someone who's running back to behind a trap/ambush and trying to bait you in, the implementation I described above would cancel your chase after the target got past the trap, which would warn you about the trap. That would be a bad side effect. Not sure how exaaaaaactly to avoid that while also avoiding the earlier mentioned situation of getting speed boosts towards attacking unrelated targets. I mean, positions-wise, they're basically the same situation. Like, if you already knew the trappers were there, then you're basically getting a speed boost ALMOST directly at them (as you chase the person running past them.) That's a bit bad.)

(Maybe it would be easy to make the scan ignore targets who you don't have a direct line of sight on. I don't actually know much about that part of the engine/code. Probably not hard. I mean, that exact kind of check would be used for casting Push 3.)

Now to come back to...

The amount of increase that the chase mechanic would give you could always be tweaked per-class.

What you're replying to is me simply saying "if you're chasing someone, you'll always end up going only slightly faster than they are, whatever their class's running speed is." Is there a problem with that? Are you saying you would rather there be a different result, like... slower classes when chasing might still be slower than the target they're chasing? You're probably not saying that.

Random thing I'll admit about my spec is that it would behave differently than chiv when a chaser chases a chaser. The person chasing the chaser would be unable to catch up if the chaser is getting enough of a speed boost from an even faster class they're chasing. Or, if the chaser-chaser sped up even FURTHER to catch up, then theoretically you could get a chain of people together and the guy at the back would go VERY FAST (for a very short time). Which would be bad.

As I said above, modifying movement and adding an actual sprint would be ideal, because then the sprint grants you forward movement whilst negating your ability to attack, and then you could add the chase mechanic ontop of that which would balance it much better.

Just so I'm not ignoring this, lemme just say that I'm trying to make really... "minimal" changes. Such that changing the movement system is off the table. So I'm trying to figure out how a chase system would work with the existing movement system.

Also if there's any single point to take away from this it's that it's helpful to the programmers/implementers if you reaaaaaaaally think through the exact details of how a mechanic would work and what the side-effects would be, and try to iron them out yourself. Although if you lack any knowledge of the code/engine I could understand that being tough.

 

[2cwldys]

Never got to play 1.3, although I am watching Achilles' video posted of it - and granted to me, it looks pretty enjoyable and smooth, even the special attacks for styles are a threat but can be countered, high skill ceilings and overall fairness. I didn't play in that time so I don't know it's downsides, but from watching the gameplay videos above I would very much love to see that kind of fluent dueling action.

I would very much like to see Tempest's Saber Build, cause I played it's Open Beta - and I familiarized myself with it while it was quite enjoyable, however was a work-in-progress at the time.

The entire hand in the towel of 1.5 was surprising cause I thought Tempest was still working, but I soon realized it was wrong.

Then 1.5.1 suddenly (probably cause of the white sabers) 0.0

EDIT: If it was in 2015, then yes I did play 1.3 .. just probably didn't know it was 1.3 cause I was new then LOL

 

[Eazy E]

high skill ceilings and overall fairness.

That is the exact opposite of what 1.3 was. The skill ceiling was low and there was 0 fairness between styles. Timing and techniques didn't mean anything, it was just about abusing broken styles and perks.

 

[2cwldys]

What's the compromise? If even able to achieve it.. as seems past few years very futile.

 

[Blazer]

I'll add to this thread with my little knowledge of sabering:
1.3 was a pretty good time for me tbh, I had the most fun during that time as a gunner and the little that I played saberists.

I will say, I enjoy this new patch but sabering doesn't feel like a "duel" anymore, because the duels that I've ever seen last maximum 20 seconds. In that video of Jewbacca and Agent008 fighting, it looked super smooth and they lasted a quite bit and looked like skill actually mattered.

From the duels I've seen or had in 1.5, It's usually just 15 seconds of mashing attack and casual blocking with red/blue and at the 20 second mark one or both of the characters are completely out of bp and just kind of dance around to get the last hit in

Maybe I'm not watching the right duels, but like others have said, ACM looks like it matters very little in this update because by the time you gain any amount of ACM to matter, you, or the other guy is dead.

 

[Blazer]

Also I'm too lazy to look, I don't know how mblock works in this update, but here's a suggestion:

Why not make it where MBLOCK can disarm, but only if your opponent is at half BP or less? This way the few newer (or even older) players don't just instantly get disarmed and die, and allows a chance for at least a duel?

I also support just getting rid of mblock disarm completely more than the idea above though. I don't like having to worry about blocking all the time while I'm trying to focus on 300 other things while dueling. The worst is instantly getting disarmed, then instantly getting slashed, and going "wow that was boring and sucked."

 

[Hessu]

Also I'm too lazy to look, I don't know how mblock works in this update, but here's a suggestion:

Why not make it where MBLOCK can disarm, but only if your opponent is at half BP or less? This way the few newer (or even older) players don't just instantly get disarmed and die, and allows a chance for at least a duel?

I also support just getting rid of mblock disarm completely more than the idea above though. I don't like having to worry about blocking all the time while I'm trying to focus on 300 other things while dueling. The worst is instantly getting disarmed, then instantly getting slashed, and going "wow that was boring and sucked."

yeah and make it so people can mindlessly spam without a worry, NOPE. Mblock is just fine as it is.

 

[k4far]

Never got to play 1.3, although I am watching Achilles' video posted of it - and granted to me, it looks pretty enjoyable and smooth.

Wasn't. It's his nostalgia that drives him towards it. It isn't all better in comparision.

 

[Tylenol]

I want a rework of PB and slowing down swing making yawing a thing to just look around, and then tou will have somewhat skillful game,

I thought you said you stopped playing :thinking_face:

 

[k4far]

I thought you said you stopped playing :thinking_face:

That beta was long ago in galaxy far away

 

[noel]

yeah ok as long as theres no normal/neutral block and no nudge it sounds interesting

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