rage wookiee

[qwerty]

why is it so strong? it takes no skill to use and the only reliable counterplay to it is staying at least 20m away from every wookiee and every spot where a wookiee might be hiding. it absolutely dominates cramped areas like gen corridor/small storage on lunar and small maps like smuggler especially when there's multiple people using it because it takes so long to burn through their damage reduction.

i really just dont see fury belonging in the game right now, it's the most rock/paper/scissors mechanic where some classes (ets, soldiers, bounty hunters, sbds) have absolutely no counterplay in a 1v1 or even a 1v2, the other 3 can pretty much only run away provided the right circumstances (if youre a sith you can jump on a high box if there is one, if youre a mando you can fly provided you had enough space to begin with to turn on your jetpack, dekas can roll away). the only reliable way to kill a raging wookiee is to have both a lot of space and preferably multiple teammates shooting him. red used to be the only soft counter to it but now that wookiees can barge through block and crouch it's pretty much gone

fury on average is not overpowered and that's not what i'm saying. it's just in certain situations it's so impossible to deal with and that combined with the fact that it takes 0 skill to execute optimally makes it very unfun to play against.

if redesigning fury is too much work (i would personally love to see something similar to what hex had in mind with his rework where rage would be converted into healing or a temporary shield, especially seeing how squishy bowcaster wookiee is) i would suggest removing the movespeed buff and reducing the damage buff they get from fury. this way 1v1ing a wookiee would be much more realistic because you'd be able to kite them and the damage nerf would mean they wouldn't be able to 1vX as easily. keeping them fairly durable but kiteable would preserve their ability to disrupt defences by forcing the imperials to reposition and keep their distance but it'd significantly nerf their 1v1 potential

 

[qwerty]

I suggest you watch the video again, the first grenade gets thrown off of the t-junction door behind the frozen pillar, pretty he gets hit pretty much on the edge of the blast radius of the grenade, dealing 50 damage. He then runs through droideka shots, getting hit twice, for total of 50 damage. Runs towards the Commander not taking any damage at all because no one is shooting him, until he gets hit by a grenade and one droideka shot for a total of 100 damage. He's at half HP at this point. He then activates Fury, charging through and getting hit by one of his team mates stray bullets for 10 damage. He then charges the Mandalorian, who manages to land a whopping total of 4 shots out of 12 taking him down to 98 health.

If the Mandalorian hit at least 4 more shots, he would have died, he could have even activated his jetpack and flew backwards or just hovered above him. There's literally no way you watched that video correctly, or you honestly have no idea what you're looking at.

so... you just repeated what sev said but with more detail?

yea if the mando had 100% accuracy and preferably only hit headshots he wouldve killed him. what if hessu dodged instead of running in a straight line? what if he used barge? what if the mando wasnt a mando or he had no fuel? whats the play then

 

[dwarf]

What are you talking about tanking damage? He got shot twice! By a droidekas single left blaster shot, how much damage do you expect him to take during all of this? Do you expect it to kill him?

You're literally grasping at straws here, "If the mando had 100% accuracy and hit only headshots he would have killed him"? The Mando hit 4, body shots and did 100 damage, if Hessu strafed he probably would strafed into the stray shots and died. The mando didn't hit a single head shot and did a total of 100 damage in 4 body shots, you're delusional if you think that that situation was at all unfair. If that was a soldier in the corridor he would have stood even more of a chance against the wookiee backpeddling and using E-11 alt fire. It's hilarious.

 

[SeV]

Alright everyone, the great and wise dwarf has spoken. Time to pack our bags. Melee wook was not OP after all. We shouldn't consider skill vs outcome and why it takes no skill to get a good outcome as a melee wook playing really badly vs working your tits off grinding down the enemy using vulgar things such as strategy, tactics, mindgaming, counterplay and teamwork. One clearly equals the other, right dwarf? What kind of evil game would reward skilled plays and punish bad plays? Should definitely keep melee wook the way it is now.

 

[Duckshark]

I suggest you watch the video again, the first grenade gets thrown off of the t-junction door behind the frozen pillar, pretty he gets hit pretty much on the edge of the blast radius of the grenade, dealing 50 damage. He then runs through droideka shots, getting hit twice, for total of 50 damage. Runs towards the Commander not taking any damage at all because no one is shooting him, until he gets hit by a grenade and one droideka shot for a total of 100 damage. He's at half HP at this point. He then activates Fury, charging through and getting hit by one of his team mates stray bullets for 10 damage. He then charges the Mandalorian, who manages to land a whopping total of 4 shots out of 12 taking him down to 98 health.

If the Mandalorian hit at least 4 more shots, he would have died, he could have even activated his jetpack and flew backwards or just hovered above him. There's literally no way you watched that video correctly, or you honestly have no idea what you're looking at.

What are you talking about tanking damage? He got shot twice! By a droidekas single left blaster shot, how much damage do you expect him to take during all of this? Do you expect it to kill him?

You're literally grasping at straws here, "If the mando had 100% accuracy and hit only headshots he would have killed him"? The Mando hit 4, body shots and did 100 damage, if Hessu strafed he probably would strafed into the stray shots and died. The mando didn't hit a single head shot and did a total of 100 damage in 4 body shots, you're delusional if you think that that situation was at all unfair. If that was a soldier in the corridor he would have stood even more of a chance against the wookiee backpeddling and using E-11 alt fire. It's hilarious.

My guy. The wookie is at half hp after tanking damage. No class can play that reckless and live but wookie. Yes, I expect wookies to be punished for running into the open in a 1v3 situation and gettimg hit for what would normally be crippling levels of damage on any other class. He holds w + left click, and mows down a guy with meh aim. Even if the mando is shit for not hitting more or landing headshots, the wookie is even worse for losing 200 hp just to get rage. Most wookies don't run out in the open like that to get rage, they camp corners and fish for lone targets. It works both ways. Sure, the mando could have just flown away and landed charge shots for like 150 damage. At the same time, Hessu could have juked, barged, went for a different target and lost less hp. I'm sure Kodar or Preston could demonstrate how a rage wookie can still get kills even with 3 dudes focusing it the whole time just cuz of good movement and hp conservation, but at the end of the day the skill level of the wookie's kills are way lower.

Let me rephrase what you said in the first quote. The wookie decided to get rage, running through 2 grenades and a deka's line of fire and a sith's area to get to a multi life class, sacrificing half of its hp to do so. It activated rage, then decided to go after a mando who didn't see it coming. The mando hit half of his shots and died to a guy holding 2 buttons and laughing at how easy it was, without even bothering to use juke moves, barge, or any advanced movement. This is not the kind of gameplay to be encouraged. This is the gameplay that makes people call wookie op even though it isn't, it just has a skill floor somewhere between the Mariana trench and the center of the fucking earth.

 

[qwerty]

i think it's quite important to remember dwarf was half of the dynamic duo that gave us this gem when fp drains and knockback was fixed in 1.6.1.2

The perfect example of why knock back does not work.

oW my GAWD LOOK AT YOUR FAURCE

 

[Jay Brando]

qwerty, duck, and sev are posting music to my ears rn. I agree with everything posted today from u 3 in this thread, and its exactly how I feel about wookie.

 

[OCD2]

Alright everyone, the great and wise dwarf has spoken. Time to pack our bags. Melee wook was not OP after all. We shouldn't consider skill vs outcome and why it takes no skill to get a good outcome as a melee wook playing really badly vs working your tits off grinding down the enemy using vulgar things such as strategy, tactics, mindgaming, counterplay and teamwork. One clearly equals the other, right dwarf? What kind of evil game would reward skilled plays and punish bad plays? Should definitely keep melee wook the way it is now.

Skill?

Like pressing F as sith/jedi to delete gunners?

Or using a dodge class?


Good players laugh at wookies on the opposing team. They are slow, predictable and not versatile. They have their moments, but so do most classes besides soldiers.

As a wookie, rage wookie that you're complaining about, all of your points are sunk into melee. You get a zero point pistol and zero ammo - you've committed to melee and that's the role you chose.

If you see a wookie without a bowcaster, just simply kite them - it's not hard. Or as sith, use sense and delete the wookie with an surprise around the corner slash ambush.

 

[Arthas]

I miss when dwarf played on NA servers...

 

[Hessu]

If anyone on imps would have focused on me, i would have died. The mando would have easily killed me if he used jetpack. But yes melee wook requires little skill but it can be taken down pretty fast if wook is careless

 

[Hessu]

Also i agree it can be op sometimes and with fury, 0 counterplay. If wook would get knocked back if shot while on fury, that would add more skill in playing wook as dodging shots would be more important. And good gunners keep wook away

 

[SeV]

Skill?

Like pressing F as sith/jedi to delete gunners?

Or using a dodge class?


Good players laugh at wookies on the opposing team. They are slow, predictable and not versatile. They have their moments, but so do most classes besides soldiers.

As a wookie, rage wookie that you're complaining about, all of your points are sunk into melee. You get a zero point pistol and zero ammo - you've committed to melee and that's the role you chose.

If you see a wookie without a bowcaster, just simply kite them - it's not hard. Or as sith, use sense and delete the wookie with an surprise around the corner slash ambush.

Originally, I wasn't going to dignify this idiotic drivel with a response, but for the benefit of the onlookers, I will.

First. It's the easiest thing in the world to hold walk/crouch and just immune the push. A basic example of a skilled way to counter a mechanic. (But where is the equivalent counter vs rage wooks? That's right, there isn't one).

Second. Even if the sith manages to get close without being fully FP drained, when he swings, he can get shot during the swing, knocking him back and damaging him severely. A wookiee deals slightly less dmg than a lightsaber but is still almost 1hitKO and blaster shots don't fuck with wooks ability to execute melee kills the way the blastershots do vs a sith. As a competent gunner with good aim, it's very easy to mow down subpar sith that just rush and swing. You dodge with crouch, sidestep etc and fire into their face. They're going to get fucked even if they have FP. Being in facehug range as a lone gunner vs 2 sith is more comfortable than being 1v1 close to a melee wook. That's just one way to show the absurdity of melee wooks skill to power ratio.

Third. Good players hate melee wooks because there is no intelligent, skilful counterplay other than not really engaging, just staying far away and hiding. You can't secondary nade them to stop their rush, you can't shoot them to knock them back enough. You just have no real option to outplay a melee wook. Relying on range as the sole balacing mechanic has proved to be bad for jedi/sith, which was why we have noticable FP drains and flinch/knockback if they get over-eager and swing randomly instead of playing skilfully. Comparing wook and sith is just beyond idiotic. One takes skill, the other doesn't.

Fouth. If you see a wook without a bowcaster, just kite them? Good luck trying to kite a rage wook. Why don't you look at Hessu's video? You think you can kite that? Complete and utter nonsense.

Also, if you wanna bring skill into it. I would bet a million dollars that you'd never even come close to qwerty's skill level and he's just one of the ppl complaining. There are many others who have issues with the current iteration of the melee wook design and I am confident that most of them are much better players than you. With what you've been saying in this thread, you sound like an advanced beginner at most, so I wouldn't try to win this argument by saying "Good players laugh at wookiees," implying that anyone in this thread who has a problem with the way wooks are currently designed, such as myself, qwerty, hex etc, are bad players or at least worse than you. This argumentum ab auctoritate is not going to do you any good as an unknown scrub. It's better to use facts and logic to win us over. However, since your attempt at facts and logic was 'just run away from the wook bro, it's easy lul' then I don't know if I should be encouraging you down that route since it clearly isn't working out for you.

 

[OCD2]

Originally, I wasn't going to dignify this idiotic drivel with a response, but for the benefit of the onlookers, I will.

First. It's the easiest thing in the world to hold walk/crouch and just immune the push. A basic example of a skilled way to counter a mechanic. (But where is the equivalent counter vs rage wooks? That's right, there isn't one).

Second. Even if the sith manages to get close without being fully FP drained, when he swings, he can get shot during the swing, knocking him back and damaging him severely. A wookiee deals slightly less dmg than a lightsaber but is still almost 1hitKO and blaster shots don't fuck with wooks ability to execute melee kills the way the blastershots do vs a sith. As a competent gunner with good aim, it's very easy to mow down subpar sith that just rush and swing. You dodge with crouch, sidestep etc and fire into their face. They're going to get fucked even if they have FP. Being in facehug range as a lone gunner vs 2 sith is more comfortable than being 1v1 close to a melee wook. That's just one way to show the absurdity of melee wooks skill to power ratio.

Third. Good players hate melee wooks because there is no intelligent, skilful counterplay other than not really engaging, just staying far away and hiding. You can't secondary nade them to stop their rush, you can't shoot them to knock them back enough. You just have no real option to outplay a melee wook. Relying on range as the sole balacing mechanic has proved to be bad for jedi/sith, which was why we have noticable FP drains and flinch/knockback if they get over-eager and swing randomly instead of playing skilfully. Comparing wook and sith is just beyond idiotic. One takes skill, the other doesn't.

Fouth. If you see a wook without a bowcaster, just kite them? Good luck trying to kite a rage wook. Why don't you look at Hessu's video? You think you can kite that? Complete and utter nonsense.

Also, if you wanna bring skill into it. I would bet a million dollars that you'd never even come close to qwerty's skill level and he's just one of the ppl complaining. There are many others who have issues with the current iteration of the melee wook design and I am confident that most of them are much better players than you. With what you've been saying in this thread, you sound like an advanced beginner at most, so I wouldn't try to win this argument by saying "Good players laugh at wookiees," implying that anyone in this thread who has a problem with the way wooks are currently designed, such as myself, qwerty, hex etc, are bad players or at least worse than you. This argumentum ab auctoritate is not going to do you any good as an unknown scrub. It's better to use facts and logic to win us over. However, since your attempt at facts and logic was 'just run away from the wook bro, it's easy lul' then I don't know if I should be encouraging you down that route since it clearly isn't working out for you.

You do not have to be cunty, and resort to low level insults that have nothing to do with the topic - though I'll respond to your rudeness, for the benefit of any onlookers.

The video was clearly wook vs random new players, players that were unable to hit a huge target directly in front of them, moving in a straight line!

Great video for you to showcase your argument.......

 

[SeV]

You do not have to be cunty, and resort to low level insults that have nothing to do with the topic

Good players laugh at wookies on the opposing team.

I was responding to things you brought up, such as the above quote. In any case, this gets us nowhere. I am still waiting to hear what your point is, and I'm starting to doubt you have one. My point is simply that the effort expended vs reward received is out of whack when it comes to melee wook.

Take another polarized class like the deka. It's a strong class but has clear weaknesses, which ragewook currently lacks. I think Hexodious' proposals were pretty sound over-all, but my preference is to remove the ability completely and flesh out gunner wook to compensate.

 

[Fang]

lol

 

[Duckshark]

This isn't entirely the point of this discussion... but I thought it'd illustrate the amount of dps a rage wookie can output with, I repeat, 0 built in counters other than dying while shooting, running, or hiding. W + M1 high tier skill gap intensifies /s. Credit to @Gargos for the vid.

And before you ask, yes, i know the SBDs miss a lot. That isn't the point i'm making, just something to keep in mind about dps.

 

[olor]

If the Mandalorian hit at least 4 more shots, he would have died, he could have even activated his jetpack and flew backwards or just hovered above him. There's literally no way you watched that video correctly, or you honestly have no idea what you're looking at.

Pretty sure he hit 6 out of 9 (obligatory nice meme) shots that he had been able to shoot (if he had better reaction time he could shoot 10; 11 if he tried right-clicking just before dying). At least 3 of them doing headshot multiplier. I'm also guessing his jetpack might have been on cooldown and unless he would perfectly backroll (so not hit the wall -> tilted his camera in such a way that he couldn't aim properly) he would still die to the wook after getting stuck on the wall. ALSO if we're in the shoulda-coulda-woulda territory, wook could just hold down special2 to barge off cooldown saving him 3 shots worth off hp there.

I just had to break it down for you. Afterall you took your time to make a nice map for qwerty, map of one of the few levels where melee wook is ACTUALLY not a problem due to the layout where it's pretty difficult to get into a position where you can sit and wait for a free kill to feed you rage.

You're playing aggressively on a defending team, against a class that has an aggressive skill set.

Completely ignoring the fact that there are maps (like Echo base, of which is the clip) on which it's the imps who have to attack. Where your magical counter of "just don't >aggressively< run into wookie 4head" is not exactly applicable.

The other magical counter of "just bait them first lol" also completely ignores the fact that, well, they can just not get baited to begin with? You know those people on the other end of the computer screen are also human and not a dark souls boss ai. You can somehow score kills in gunfights without having to rely on the opponent to make a coin flip level mistake.

 

[Master Butters]

I'm replying to this thread to keep up with the lulz

Thanks, boys.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

This entire rage thing is, unfortunately, very similar to the dodge situation. People got used to it over time, and now they don't want to give up the comfort of getting those easy kills after catching 1 guy off-guard.

It's honestly kinda sad to see that wookiee became this dumbass noskill class for people who don't wanna think much. Do you remember what it was in 1.4 and prior? A very powerful ranged class that actually took skill to properly position yourself and good aim to make the best of the bowcaster's great DPS. And so, a lot of people played it and it felt fair when you died to them.

Fast forward to present day. Caster is still not what it used to be, even after the buff, so only a few people actually run caster builds. The rest don't bother, and just pick rage because YOOO I'M PUNCHING. And when you see a wookiee these days, you're 99% sure it's gonna be a melee one, which is, once again, kinda sad.

The main problem here, I think, is the fact that caster is still shit. Rage has existed for a long time, but it was never so problematic, because only some people played it, usually for fun. The vast majority ran caster 2/3 builds and didn't care for rage. If caster was made STRONG again, not just "ok", then we would see normal, healthy caster wooks populate the servers again.

 

[SeV]

This entire rage thing is, unfortunately, very similar to the dodge situation. People got used to it over time, and now they don't want to give up the comfort of getting those easy kills after catching 1 guy off-guard.

It's honestly kinda sad to see that wookiee became this dumbass noskill class for people who don't wanna think much. Do you remember what it was in 1.4 and prior? A very powerful ranged class that actually took skill to properly position yourself and good aim to make the best of the bowcaster's great DPS. And so, a lot of people played it and it felt fair when you died to them.

Fast forward to present day. Caster is still not what it used to be, even after the buff, so only a few people actually run caster builds. The rest don't bother, and just pick rage because YOOO I'M PUNCHING. And when you see a wookiee these days, you're 99% sure it's gonna be a melee one, which is, once again, kinda sad.

The main problem here, I think, is the fact that caster is still shit. Rage has existed for a long time, but it was never so problematic, because only some people played it, usually for fun. The vast majority ran caster 2/3 builds and didn't care for rage. If caster was made STRONG again, not just "ok", then we would see normal, healthy caster wooks populate the servers again.

I can fondly recall one day many years ago on the old dotf, when I got 40/1 as a wook. My team was probably good. But I was playing reasonably as a mid-ranger with a good team. This was back before this rage/fury shit was even a thing. Back then, a melee wook had max str and grabbed grenades instead. The point is, I can recall a time when gunner wook wasn't a complete joke of a moving target dummy, but an actual threat. The kind of threat that if a skilled player used the class, it'd inspire the same kind of fear as a competent SBD. Adding the rage shit completely ended that era. I dunno what happened because it was such a long time ago. But I think wook can become great gunners again. It just requires them to not be moving target dummies with no firepower.

The current wook can hardly outgun a competent commander with dodge. It can snipe with precise shots. But since when was wook a mid-range sniper class going for well-aimed single shots to end things? If devs have some idea that it should be slow but powerful... wtf is rage? It makes them sonic the hedgehog.

We can start by upping the firerate of the bowcaster so it doesn't feel cancerous to use (adjusting damage etc as needed) and giving melee wook speed to them when they hold their weapons. Seriously. A slow moving gunner that has a low fire rate. This is bad design. (Just imagine Pistol 3 on a soldier to illustrate my point. P3 might be strong on a hero that moves fast and can dodge and maneuver, but on a soldier it's nowhere near as powerful even if u take the 3 lives into account). Also, the current faster projectile speeds have made wook more of a target than it used to be with the slower speeds, exacerbating the problem.

After those two simple adjustments, we can add some attachments to make it more interesting to use a bowcaster. Attachments that evoke images of the arcs m5. My personal favorite here is to have charged bouncy shots. The one where u charge up 5 shots that then spread in an arc is largely useless. If you want a multishot charge, make it have more of a shotgun spread (a nice way to introduce skill to being fearsome close range, imagine the fp drain, for example)

 

[Haddon70]

^ Caster bounce shots/ multi charge would be cool, look at base jkas bowcaster, maybe it could be exclusive to bowcaster level 3 at least and have the green bolts to top it off?