rage wookiee

[qwerty]

why is it so strong? it takes no skill to use and the only reliable counterplay to it is staying at least 20m away from every wookiee and every spot where a wookiee might be hiding. it absolutely dominates cramped areas like gen corridor/small storage on lunar and small maps like smuggler especially when there's multiple people using it because it takes so long to burn through their damage reduction.

i really just dont see fury belonging in the game right now, it's the most rock/paper/scissors mechanic where some classes (ets, soldiers, bounty hunters, sbds) have absolutely no counterplay in a 1v1 or even a 1v2, the other 3 can pretty much only run away provided the right circumstances (if youre a sith you can jump on a high box if there is one, if youre a mando you can fly provided you had enough space to begin with to turn on your jetpack, dekas can roll away). the only reliable way to kill a raging wookiee is to have both a lot of space and preferably multiple teammates shooting him. red used to be the only soft counter to it but now that wookiees can barge through block and crouch it's pretty much gone

fury on average is not overpowered and that's not what i'm saying. it's just in certain situations it's so impossible to deal with and that combined with the fact that it takes 0 skill to execute optimally makes it very unfun to play against.

if redesigning fury is too much work (i would personally love to see something similar to what hex had in mind with his rework where rage would be converted into healing or a temporary shield, especially seeing how squishy bowcaster wookiee is) i would suggest removing the movespeed buff and reducing the damage buff they get from fury. this way 1v1ing a wookiee would be much more realistic because you'd be able to kite them and the damage nerf would mean they wouldn't be able to 1vX as easily. keeping them fairly durable but kiteable would preserve their ability to disrupt defences by forcing the imperials to reposition and keep their distance but it'd significantly nerf their 1v1 potential

 

[Duckshark]

Thanks for the input, Kcaz, Kodar, and Arthas, I see some of your points.

However: Wookie is still at its core a run n gun/run and punch class. Having to walk to use caster effectively gimps its usability heavily. To kill a 400 hp wookie, you only need (with some wiggle room) 7 e11 secondary headshots, 2 t21 primary headshots + 1 secondary shot, 3 p3 headshots and 1 bodyshot, 1 proj headshot, 1 ruptor charge, 5 dlt headshots or 2 bursts. A t21 commander with good aim can pretty much solo the wookie, especially using both of its lives. Being forced to walk with soldier speed just to use caster severely nerfs its usability, and even if caster running speed remains the same (which it should to balance around sith) then it needs better accuracy in order to be effective.

I was unaware of gunbash's stagger utility. Fair enough I suppose, if you're getting gunbashed you kinda deserve the stagger.

I think giving wookie an arc-like selection of sights + explosive shot vs a multi shot secondary fire mode would be cool. However, I stand by the fact that the scope is pretty much out of place given that on maps that are not geonosis arena, possibly corellia and dotf_classic_b. The charged fire is less bad and would fit better with some changes (or even just without scope), but I feel that the scope would not be necessary if running accuracy on bowcaster was buffed on levels 2/3 (does caster have pistol accuracy on level 3?) At least that way you have a fighting chance vs decent gunners and don't become sniper bait.

I'd like to see rage be more of a damage reduction ability that lets you take hits and keep going rather than have magically better speed and strength. If you got, say 25 percent passive dmg reduction and subsequent rage kills granted 25% of their normal rage levels to the bar, i think it'd work better and allow for true tanking where a wookie punches through half of a imp team with bad aim, or a caster wook winning 1v3s cuz it managed to get an early kill in rage and outlast the opponents. IDK, I think rage in its current form results in "just run away" ideas rather than actually countering the class/ability, especially when the gameplay is w+m1 level skill. Rage shouldn't be a purely dps boost ability, but more of a "tank harder and better cuz you can't touch this" ability.

 

[Fang]

nerf barge stagger for sith about all i want

 

[qwerty]

rofl, this is you being serious

this is you being constructive? aimed melee is a very common mechanic in other games that have melee weapons, even mb2 has a kind of aimed melee with pblocking in duels. the losing balance part i don't think makes any sense but it's not a new idea to tie melee damage to location multipliers

 

[Hexodious]

I'd like Wookiee to be able to push better in general, in a similar way that the new dodge is designed to allow (yes we all know the numbers are off but hoping the team tweaks it soon).

The gameplay of rushing someone down can be maintained imo, but the scale of it at the moment is a bit too powerful. I'd like to see it still be an option for heavily invested melee wooks but remove all of the damage reduction associated with it so you feel you can actually bring them down, while also requiring inputs to maintain uptime and provide juke opportunities if someone messes up their "melee rampage". I'd push the movement side of Wookiee entirely into the fury ability while simultaneously allowing Wookiees to be tankier on demand via temp hp, allowing them to initiate for the team more knowing they are going to get shot to hell. So I'd do some changes as follows:

Strength

• Rank 3
  • Removed: Melee movement speed bonus.
  • Added: Gun Slap.

Health

• Rank 3
  • Removed: 100 base HP increase (from 300 to 400).
  • Added: Unlocks Rage Resource.
    • 0-100
    • Acts as an additional HP bar.
    • Slowly decays back down to 0 over 10 (tweak it) seconds.
  • Added: Unlocks Roar Button.
    • Freezes you in place and roars (current Fury initiate animation).
      • Can be done with a gun equipped.
    • Linear generation of rage over course of animation 0-100.
    • Cannot activate while you have remaining rage.

Fury

• Rank 1 (Shoulder Barge)
  • Added: Melee movement speed bonus.
  • Removed: Gun Slap.
  • Removed: Rage.
• Rank 2
  • Removed: Crouch stagger.
  • Changed: Fury
    • Gain 'Fury' movement speed and animations while using Melee and Shoulder Barge is on CD.
    • NO melee attack speed bonus.
    • NO damage reduction.
    • NO debuff.
• Rank 3 (Optional/Later)
  • Added: Ryyk Blades
    • Replaces Primary melee attack animation with blades (at all times).
    • Increases attack speed (old fury levels).

This lets caster Wookiees fully focus on the Bowcaster, supplemented by Health and Strength while giving them tools to initiate thanks to the Roar/Rage mechanic.

When it comes to pure melee Wooks they can still try rampaging (primarily with movement), but now need to contend with maintaining up-time to chase people down, breaking off to roar from safety and no damage reduction. Being limited to sequential shoulder barges without damage reduction, puts them into telegraphed/timed patterns required to maintain up-time while also giving enemies the chance to shoot them down as they will be much squishier.

If the blades ever came it would require point sacrifices in HP or Strength giving more counter play while giving the Wookiee a faster time to kill against targets in melee.

The Roar/Rage mechanic itself also lets opponents time counter pushes against you if you are repeatedly roaring around a corner thanks to the decay this encourages its use only when needed.

 

[Hexodious]

I'd like to add that yes this is very similar to and basically a fairer version of dodge for the Wookiee in terms of temp hp. But while I toyed with the idea of having Rage be an additive thing on damage done (like now) or resetting to full on kills I didn't want it to become a problem for the melee chase downs as I do think it should still be an option for people to do as Wookiee. It could work and may be something to test if it didn't feel strong enough but for now I felt leaving the idea as this.

I also get why the crouch stagger was added, but if that is to stay for whatever reason maybe it should be a much shorter stagger and used as more of an interrupt for the current swing rather than a full stagger preventing many swings.

 

[qwerty]

Fury

• Rank 1 (Shoulder Barge)
  • Added: Melee movement speed bonus.
  • Removed: Gun Slap.
  • Removed: Rage.
• Rank 2
  • Removed: Crouch stagger.
  • Changed: Fury
    • Gain 'Fury' movement speed and animations while using Melee and Shoulder Barge is on CD.
    • NO melee attack speed bonus.
    • NO damage reduction.
    • NO debuff.
• Rank 3 (Optional/Later)
  • Added: Ryyk Blades
    • Replaces Primary melee attack animation with blades (at all times).
    • Increases attack speed (old fury levels).

this would be great imo, keep fury as more of a fun ability and for use in hybrid builds with rank 1 by removing the insane survivability boost you get from pressing fury

Strength

• Rank 3
  • Removed: Melee movement speed bonus.

don't know about this, melee movespeed is nice to have for bowcaster builds to be able to move around the map better when you know you're gonna be relatively safe, something of a sprint button since the weapon out movespeed is so slow. but the compounding effect of this ms % + fury ms % is obviously huge for melee builds so idk, maybe reducing the ms% buff from fury instead of removing the str 3 ms% buff would be better since it won't gimp caster builds mobility

Health

• Rank 3
  • Removed: 100 base HP increase (from 300 to 400).
  • Added: Unlocks Rage Resource.
    • 0-100
    • Acts as an additional HP bar.
    • Slowly decays back down to 0 over 10 (tweak it) seconds.
  • Added: Unlocks Roar Button.
    • Freezes you in place and roars (current Fury initiate animation).
      • Can be done with a gun equipped.
    • Linear generation of rage over course of animation 0-100.
    • Cannot activate while you have remaining rage.

i love this idea, i think it'd be a great addition to bowcaster builds as they are severely lacking in durability atm, you're basically a 1v1 flanker more than a frontline pusher because both the dodge classes and jedi have 10 times your EHP because of wookiee's slow MS and massive hitbox.

my suggestion would be this though: instead of a channeled ability have it build through damage and/or killing blows, then you activate it with a shorter version of the current fury animation without the weapon out restriction

 

[Fluffy |>]

make str give a move speed buff to bowcaster movement speed

 

[Hexodious]

don't know about this, melee movespeed is nice to have for bowcaster builds to be able to move around the map better when you know you're gonna be relatively safe, something of a sprint button since the weapon out movespeed is so slow. but the compounding effect of this ms % + fury ms % is obviously huge for melee builds so idk, maybe reducing the ms% buff from fury instead of removing the str 3 ms% buff would be better since it won't gimp caster builds mobility

You'd always have the option to go STR2 without gunslap for increased melee movement speed from fury1 and barge. You'd lose force immunity from lightning/grip and some melee damage/knockback but is still an option. I forget if its strength 2 or 3 that stops nades (but if its 2, yes it would be a problem).

Edit: just looked at the wookiee point config didn't realise it was so differently priced than when I was previously active. I was thinking you'd get caster3 str2 hp3 fury1 ammo1/2 for that but that isn't possible anymore requiring 11 but only having 9 left.

 

[RogueWookiee]

the losing balance part i don't think makes any sense but it's not a new idea to tie melee damage to location multipliers

Thats exactly why the comment was fucking retarded lmao.

 

[qwerty]

Thats exactly why the comment was fucking retarded lmao.

lmao

 

[Fluffy |>]

You'd always have the option to go STR2 without gunslap for increased melee movement speed from fury1 and barge. You'd lose force immunity from lightning/grip and some melee damage/knockback but is still an option. I forget if its strength 2 or 3 that stops nades (but if its 2, yes it would be a problem).

Edit: just looked at the wookiee point config didn't realise it was so differently priced than when I was previously active. I was thinking you'd get caster3 str2 hp3 fury1 ammo1/2 for that but that isn't possible anymore requiring 11 but only having 9 left.

yeah frenz changed all the point prices in 1.6

 

[dwarf]

I have no problem with the fury ability. I think it's a great asset to the rebels to help push and draw fire away from your team mates, it works as it's intended.

My favourite build with Wookiee is;

Bowcaster - 1
Health - 3
Strength - 3
Fury - 1
Ammo - 3

This build allows me to mobile and strong, have a hard hitting weapon with a slow fire rate, great defence against Sith, and a gap closer with fury.

Now addressing the gameplay complaints.
People are surprised when they run out into the open and die by a Wookiee?
Why are you pushing out of your objective? You're on the defensive. If you push out of your safe area, be ready for hostility.
If your concern is that you were flanked by a Wookiee, most objectives in the game give a pop up message stating what objective has been done, and when you see that text pop up, you should have decent game knowledge of what doors are now open and what vulnerabilities you now have.

For example, if the rebels open the side doors from via the generator on mb2_dotf, you can consider.

• Some rebels may have split through side corridor and could be in our spawn.
• Some rebels may be ready and have pushed through Federation room doors.
• Rebels were in our spawn and have already pushed through T-Junction.

If a secondary objective has been completed your instinct should not be to push further into what is now the rebels controlled territory, it should be to fall back and defend. If your argument is that you want to hunt people down and play aggressively don't be surprised that someone may indeed be behind that door waiting for you. You could say the exact same thing about a Jedi in a 1v1 situation. You push to far forward and a Jedi is crouching behind a corner or holding onto the wall above a door, silent drops and Pushes/Pulls you over. If you're complaining that a Wookiee has literally ninja'd his way behind you without completing secondary objectives, then that your teams fault for not covering and watching your flank.
It is now more than ever easier to know who has died, what to and where they are. We've had team overlay available since conception, and now the scoreboard even shows what class someone is playing.
So even if your teammate doesn't communicate that there is currently a Wookiee behind you, you can plainly see that;

dogmaster was bludgeoned to death by hotpants

Press TAB and see that hotpants is in fact playing as a Wookiee, decide that you most likely should not head in that direction, but instead fall back onto the objective.

It's almost impossible to find yourself in a 1v1 situation with a Wookiee unless you're playing aggressively, and if you are playing aggressively, then that's your fault.
Let's say that for some reason, you end up as the last person alive on your team, and a Wookiee with a full rage bar is the last alive for the Rebels.
If the Wookiee has taken no damage at all and you're in a boxed off room, you will most likely die.
Being realistic, the Wookiee has fifty percent health, and unless you have Parkinson's, you will kill the Wookiee.

tldr; Nothing wrong with the ability, just peoples gameplay.

 

[qwerty]

unless you're playing aggressively, and if you are playing aggressively, then that's your fault.

possibly the most retarded take in video game history

aggressive = bad, camping = good

you can come up with contrived scenarios all you want where the wookiee is low, you're never in a 1v1 with them because you're camping the obj with your whole team etc etc but the facts are still what i said in OP: rage has no counter. the only counter to rage is to never fight rage. it's a retardedly broken mechanic IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

fact of the matter is that sometimes you will find yourself in a fight against a raging wookiee, especially if you like playing the game proactively instead of sitting around chokepoints with your whole team behind you. and when you do, all he has to do is press mouse 1 and run in your face and there's nothing. you. can. do.

Why are you pushing out of your objective?

lol

 

[RogueWookiee]

possibly the most retarded take in video game history

aggressive = bad, camping = good

you can come up with contrived scenarios all you want where the wookiee is low, you're never in a 1v1 with them because you're camping the obj with your whole team etc etc but the facts are still what i said in OP: rage has no counter. the only counter to rage is to never fight rage. it's a retardedly broken mechanic IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

fact of the matter is that sometimes you will find yourself in a fight against a raging wookiee, especially if you like playing the game proactively instead of sitting around chokepoints with your whole team behind you. and when you do, all he has to do is press mouse 1 and run in your face and there's nothing. you. can. do.



lol

Bait? Crouch? Use Red? Jump?

 

[Hessu]

Bait? Crouch? Use Red? Jump?

Gunners are free real estate for rage wooks

 

[qwerty]

Bait? Crouch? Use Red? Jump?

crouch and get barge staggered? have you even played against rage this patch? and red is at best like a 70/30 for the wookiee with the latest buffs

sith do have some minimal outplay potential if the wookiee is absolute shit and preferably low enough to only take 2 swings, yea you can jump around and if they let you time your swings instead of just baiting you and eventually 2tapping you with mouse 1 you can sometimes kill them. it's still a hugely disadvantegous fight for the sith, relies mostly on the wookiee's incompetence. if you're 2 evenly skilled players, one is a wookiee with at least 300 hp and a bit of rage saved up and you're a sith you're gonna get shredded if you try to fight them. and any other class is a complete joke in that matchup

 

[OCD2]

possibly the most retarded take in video game history

aggressive = bad, camping = good

you can come up with contrived scenarios all you want where the wookiee is low, you're never in a 1v1 with them because you're camping the obj with your whole team etc etc but the facts are still what i said in OP: rage has no counter. the only counter to rage is to never fight rage. it's a retardedly broken mechanic IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

fact of the matter is that sometimes you will find yourself in a fight against a raging wookiee, especially if you like playing the game proactively instead of sitting around chokepoints with your whole team behind you. and when you do, all he has to do is press mouse 1 and run in your face and there's nothing. you. can. do.



lol

I haven't

possibly the most retarded take in video game history

aggressive = bad, camping = good

you can come up with contrived scenarios all you want where the wookiee is low, you're never in a 1v1 with them because you're camping the obj with your whole team etc etc but the facts are still what i said in OP: rage has no counter. the only counter to rage is to never fight rage. it's a retardedly broken mechanic IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS.

fact of the matter is that sometimes you will find yourself in a fight against a raging wookiee, especially if you like playing the game proactively instead of sitting around chokepoints with your whole team behind you. and when you do, all he has to do is press mouse 1 and run in your face and there's nothing. you. can. do.



lol

Typically I play imp. Due to sides being imbalanced for too long, I switched teams.

I gave wookie a good go for awhile. Wookie is nowhere near as bad as you're going on about.

The only people that get easily juked by wookie are newer players. Everyone else knows how to counter with sith or gunner alike - hit the huge target, try to avoided letting the lumbering huge target get to cqc.

 

[Preston]

Idk why people think wookie is op against a lone* sith. As a sith if you are alone and die by a wookie then its 100% your fault. You have sense so you should be able to see him around the corner camping a mile away, and if he has rage then you literally just hang onto a wall for 5 seconds while his rage runs out. I understand getting upset about gunner vs wookiee but against a sith that doesnt make any sense to get upset about.

 

[qwerty]

I gave wookie a good go for awhile. Wookie is nowhere near as bad as you're going on about.

The only people that get easily juked by wookie are newer players.

can you read?

fury on average is not overpowered and that's not what i'm saying. it's just in certain situations it's so impossible to deal with and that combined with the fact that it takes 0 skill to execute optimally makes it very unfun to play against.

i am not fucking saying wookiee the class is overpowered. i'm saying in certain situations >>>>>FURY<<<<<< is impossible to deal with. if you think only new players die to a raging wookiee then i don't know what fucking world you live in but i'd love to see it

 

[dwarf]

Like I said, and you're pretty much answering your own questions.

rage has no counter. the only counter to rage is to never fight rage.

You're playing aggressively on a defending team, against a class that has an aggressive skill set.
Instead of blindly rushing into the enemy territory and getting stomped in melee range by a Wookiee, sit back and control your objective and widdle them down from afar, that way they have to push to get to you.

You're acting as if defending in an objective based game is a bad thing. You don't rush off site in counter strike as a CT to hunt down the T's, you hold down your objective points and let them push to you, and to anyone who says it's irrelevant they're different games, RenegadeOfPhunk literally based this MOD off of counter strike.

Not only that, you're deluded into thinking I mean you have to camp your last main objective. There are at least 3 - 4 objective points on most maps, you play up on your furthest point, and if you get overrun you pull back into the next objective point. That's how objective based gameplay goes.

For whatever reason you think I'm off topic with what I'm saying, but it ties into what the fury skill is about in whole.
It's an skill that you have to at least kill someone for, then you can use that ability to push objectives with your team.

If a Wookiee kills your team mate, and you go hunting him yourself, you're just asking for trouble.
If you have no map awareness and you play outside of your controlled area, expect some surprises.