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I am somewhat curious as to what people think about the current state of Jedi/Sith vs Gunner. So I've put up a small survey for you peeps to fill up >: )
Jedi/Sith vs Gunner Survey
Jedi/Sith vs Gunner Survey
Questionnaire regarding Jedi/Sith
- Thread starter GoodOl'Ben
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I wouldn't fret other's play too much, especially if you aren't exceptionally good at the game yourself. (not calling anyone out, just saying there's other things you can personally focus on than brooding other's play)
Markyle has good advice in spectating the players you see play well, I'd go a step further and say shadow them on the map. Not to mention the sheer value of working together. Gunners in tandem with proper tactics are in my eyes the most deadly compilation you can muster.
Markyle has good advice in spectating the players you see play well, I'd go a step further and say shadow them on the map. Not to mention the sheer value of working together. Gunners in tandem with proper tactics are in my eyes the most deadly compilation you can muster.
BigBossBigTeef
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Here is reality
http://blocked_domain/diopij.png
This is the team roster for any open mode match in the game, a small group of 5 gunners. The rest are sabers.
Every single match I play is this, especially in the big pop games. The sabers would reach double digits in those cases.
I see more combination of gunners and saber users on the sith team, because their gunners have hard counters against jedi. But when I play the good team, almost the whole team are jedi.
And what I mentioned above is a regular every day occurrence. If I had learned anything from spectating people is don't expect teamwork from saber users. I am a new player too, I only been a regular here since September 1st. And I am in despair over the teamwork people have displayed in this game. Game is fucking awesome, the depth and mechanics are great. The people who play kill the experience for me though.
The only good teamwork I see if when people get their friends in and form a small posse on their team.
And those people are always the clanners, they stick to their friends and ignore everyone else.
I think im the only person who apologizes for team kills, and doesn't punish ever.
http://blocked_domain/diopij.png
This is the team roster for any open mode match in the game, a small group of 5 gunners. The rest are sabers.
Every single match I play is this, especially in the big pop games. The sabers would reach double digits in those cases.
I see more combination of gunners and saber users on the sith team, because their gunners have hard counters against jedi. But when I play the good team, almost the whole team are jedi.
And what I mentioned above is a regular every day occurrence. If I had learned anything from spectating people is don't expect teamwork from saber users. I am a new player too, I only been a regular here since September 1st. And I am in despair over the teamwork people have displayed in this game. Game is fucking awesome, the depth and mechanics are great. The people who play kill the experience for me though.
The only good teamwork I see if when people get their friends in and form a small posse on their team.
And those people are always the clanners, they stick to their friends and ignore everyone else.
I think im the only person who apologizes for team kills, and doesn't punish ever.
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I can see you've determined a reality to invest in. I'll lean back on the statement: Don't fret it, just enjoy the game and find people to play with. This is as easy as seeing someone in game that you feel would work well with you, then sticking with them.
BigBossBigTeef
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You could of worded that better, its not a reality I made up. This is a reality new players see. This is perspective from new players. Probably one of the most critical ones needed to rebuild and populate. I am not asking to change mechanics or balancing, I am asking people to stop being dicks and work with new players like I have been the past few weeks.
I don't want these people to leave, we need more people who are willing to romp through the mud to find shelter like me. I am working very hard to teach any new players I come across in game. And I would appreciate it the stuck up saber users to work with me instead of confirming my bias.
I want to be proven wrong and there is good people among us but they continue to crush my soul.
I came from a source mod community, where the population was always small and niche and I see this game has not reached the point where my previous encampments are.
This game has like 21 servers, where I came from we had 4 and only enough to populate 1 server through out the day. And the new players would always be chased off by the veterans with no chance for growth or discussion.
I don't want this to happen here, this game has the years of polish that my previous game could never get. It didn't get the love and attention like this game did, it got abandon the 1st year of release and the community has been holding it together since. I don't want to see that happen here. Which is why im making such a big deal out of this.
I don't want these people to leave, we need more people who are willing to romp through the mud to find shelter like me. I am working very hard to teach any new players I come across in game. And I would appreciate it the stuck up saber users to work with me instead of confirming my bias.
I want to be proven wrong and there is good people among us but they continue to crush my soul.
I came from a source mod community, where the population was always small and niche and I see this game has not reached the point where my previous encampments are.
This game has like 21 servers, where I came from we had 4 and only enough to populate 1 server through out the day. And the new players would always be chased off by the veterans with no chance for growth or discussion.
I don't want this to happen here, this game has the years of polish that my previous game could never get. It didn't get the love and attention like this game did, it got abandon the 1st year of release and the community has been holding it together since. I don't want to see that happen here. Which is why im making such a big deal out of this.
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Chaos the Chaotic
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The community died a long time ago. We're just the maggots festering and feasting on the corpse.
Sorry, but you're being too much of a drama queen here. I've been frustrated by poor teammates since I started playing this mod.
Some players weren't even born yet Not even joking...
And considering I spent the majority of those years shifting names daily, keeping to myself, I'd say few people know the frustration better than me.
You adapt to what you're stuck with. There will be times where you've had enough and will leave the game. Just like there will be times when you're on a streak or skill stacking so severely people start wetting themselves and suiciding before you even get a chance to take the kill...bastards.
It can suck being on an team of the inept and selfish. But thats life. Its not all peaches and cream.
And in no way is this unique to mb. Or new in any remote fashion. Word for word, calling out the undesirable aspects of this community has been the norm since '04.
Still here, still going strong. No worries unless another dev dick takes too much control and severs the server list again.
Sorry, but you're being too much of a drama queen here. I've been frustrated by poor teammates since I started playing this mod.
Some players weren't even born yet
Not even joking...And considering I spent the majority of those years shifting names daily, keeping to myself, I'd say few people know the frustration better than me.
You adapt to what you're stuck with. There will be times where you've had enough and will leave the game. Just like there will be times when you're on a streak or skill stacking so severely people start wetting themselves and suiciding before you even get a chance to take the kill...bastards.
It can suck being on an team of the inept and selfish. But thats life. Its not all peaches and cream.
And in no way is this unique to mb. Or new in any remote fashion. Word for word, calling out the undesirable aspects of this community has been the norm since '04.
Still here, still going strong. No worries unless another dev dick takes too much control and severs the server list again.
BigBossBigTeef
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Yes I am fully aware I look insane to you people, its just the symptom of having passion for something you love. I haven't had that ripped out of me yet and I hope it doesn't. I don't enjoy being cynical and hateful. When you work in the medical field, things are depressing, cold, and slow.The community died a long time ago. We're just the maggots festering and feasting on the corpse.
Sorry, but you're being too much of a drama queen here. I've been frustrated by poor teammates since I started playing this mod.
Some players weren't even born yet
When I come home and play movie battles for a few hours, that feeling goes away and I get reminded I can have fun again. So yes, I care about some stupid star-wars game where Plo-kun makes fun of my mother.
This isn't a problem about a lack of skill, nobody is complaining about being inept.
The sith/jedi class is actually a very complicated class I may not ever understand it myself, and the people who play it daily must have neck beards that reach the floor.
The problem is the people who play this class, tend to be assholes, and my whole problem with that is people being assholes drive away players who are seeking to learn. This isn't about me, this is about Padawan, Padawan[1] and Padawan[2]. If they can take that journey through the mud and stick around and claim their own names. Then we can re-grow at a slow pace.
This game has huge advantages over the other mods out there because it's still getting updates and new content. And I have been trying to help them take that walk by showing them how to play the game and giving them a positive experience instead of a negative one. First impressions are everything to new players.
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I think the class makes a huge part of it. If jedi/sith is meant for support, they should have abilities to work with others. Now they have super powers to get kills (push/pull, one swing kills, deflect, pushing back rockets/nades, sense to hide and surprise kill, grip and throw down people, zap to death with lightning 3, kick without switching weapon). They have most of the fun ways to kill. So I think neglecting teamplay is built into the class.
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The problem with Jedi/Sith is how little they're punished for pushing up on gunners across certain distances. For example:
I don't like the idea of allowing Jedi/Sith to run unhindered across large stretches of open area, it sends a bad message. A gunner should also be rewarded for hitting the Jedi/Sith consistently within that "sweet spot" between long range and medium-close range. Right now, even if they do, the Jedi/Sith has more than enough FP to mess up and still recover enough to get the kill. Location and map awareness should be just as important to any melee class.
I'd like to think that knockback is that last stand sort of scenario when balancing the class against gunners. I would rather avoid knockback, and have a sort of "stun" in place instead of an aggressive knockback; and stagger isn't a solution, it actually benefits Jedi/Sith as much as it does gunners.
Also some tips for fighting against Jedi/Sith for newer players. I know it's satisfying to hold down mouse 2 with an E-11, but primary fire does more damage, bullets velocity is higher and does more FP damage; yes it requires better aim, but you aren't going to get better at the game if you don't learn how to aim.
- Jedi/Sith and gunners should be at equal advantage at long range. Jedi/Sith can reach the gunner, and the gunner isn't hitting hard enough at that distance to drain adequate FP.
- Gunners should be at the advantage at medium range. This is where they're most effectively damaging the force points of Jedi/Sith. It's here that all of the damage should reliably be done if they intend to win a 1v1 duel.
- Jedi/Sith should be at the advantage at extreme close range, with close range being more of a skill match up than anything else. Jedi/Sith have the tools to incapacitate the gunner before they even need to swing.
- Additionally Jedi/Sith have the advantage in areas with a lot of cover to hide behind and regenerate their FP.
I don't like the idea of allowing Jedi/Sith to run unhindered across large stretches of open area, it sends a bad message. A gunner should also be rewarded for hitting the Jedi/Sith consistently within that "sweet spot" between long range and medium-close range. Right now, even if they do, the Jedi/Sith has more than enough FP to mess up and still recover enough to get the kill. Location and map awareness should be just as important to any melee class.
I'd like to think that knockback is that last stand sort of scenario when balancing the class against gunners. I would rather avoid knockback, and have a sort of "stun" in place instead of an aggressive knockback; and stagger isn't a solution, it actually benefits Jedi/Sith as much as it does gunners.
Also some tips for fighting against Jedi/Sith for newer players. I know it's satisfying to hold down mouse 2 with an E-11, but primary fire does more damage, bullets velocity is higher and does more FP damage; yes it requires better aim, but you aren't going to get better at the game if you don't learn how to aim.
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BigBossBigTeef
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9 on Echo base
http://blocked_domain/sgxqxl.png
8 on death star
http://blocked_domain/xpaars.png
Who am I exactly supposed to shoot here though, I need a fucking wall to stop these mongorian jedi.
I get gunners are supposed to focus fire these targets, but what do you do when there is 3 of you and 8 of them? And there isn't a large open stretched area.
http://blocked_domain/sgxqxl.png
8 on death star
http://blocked_domain/xpaars.png
Who am I exactly supposed to shoot here though, I need a fucking wall to stop these mongorian jedi.
I get gunners are supposed to focus fire these targets, but what do you do when there is 3 of you and 8 of them? And there isn't a large open stretched area.
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Jedi/Sith vs Gunner Here are the results, they're in public. Perception of balance seems to be roughly appropriate with some outliers.
Respawning classes are perceived weaker or roughly equal. This seems very well to me as these classes do sort of play around the 'weak foot soldier' fantasy. Which is then adjusted for balance with multiple lives, which allows skilled players to sustain an aggressive presence throughout the round taking chances that are not possible with single life classes without severe commitment.
Super Battle Droid and Wookiee seem to be perceived very commonly as stronger. It is obvious as both classes have very heavy counters. Clonetrooper seems to also be perceived a little too strong. These are classes I'd look at in terms of balance, when we're discussing class specific adjustments.
Clone could receive a slight adjustment in some department to help Sith out. This change needs to be very mild.
Lightsaber style perks seem somewhat mixed in terms of reception. A significant proportion of people do not fully know about these or are simply confused. It should be the biggest goal moving forward with adjusting these.
There seem to be some people who do not grasp IDR as a concept. This could also be better looked into. Overall perceptions of balance seem very good. Large changes do not look necessary. Exploring improvements to IDR's understandability and a slight knockback should be explored, but with the goal of maintaining current balance.
Respawning classes are perceived weaker or roughly equal. This seems very well to me as these classes do sort of play around the 'weak foot soldier' fantasy. Which is then adjusted for balance with multiple lives, which allows skilled players to sustain an aggressive presence throughout the round taking chances that are not possible with single life classes without severe commitment.
Super Battle Droid and Wookiee seem to be perceived very commonly as stronger. It is obvious as both classes have very heavy counters. Clonetrooper seems to also be perceived a little too strong. These are classes I'd look at in terms of balance, when we're discussing class specific adjustments.
Clone could receive a slight adjustment in some department to help Sith out. This change needs to be very mild.
Lightsaber style perks seem somewhat mixed in terms of reception. A significant proportion of people do not fully know about these or are simply confused. It should be the biggest goal moving forward with adjusting these.
- Look for ways to better convey information to players about these perks (visual cues, more visible documentation)
- Look for ways to make these perks less drastic (simple number nerfs, drawbacks, etc)
- Failing to reach a desired outcome with the following will lead to considering removal for Saber vs Gun -related perks.
There seem to be some people who do not grasp IDR as a concept. This could also be better looked into. Overall perceptions of balance seem very good. Large changes do not look necessary. Exploring improvements to IDR's understandability and a slight knockback should be explored, but with the goal of maintaining current balance.
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I took that information a bit differently. I saw that Jedi/sith appear to have at worst an OK matchup across the board [many more saying it's favorable for them than detrimental] across many categories except the clear counters in SBD and Wookiee.
I'm going to rest in the boat of long veterans I've seen voice this opinion many times over:
A bad saberist beats a bad gunner
an average saberist beats an average gunner
a great saberist loses to a great gunner
Hero's dash is pretty nasty versus sith, along the lines of BH poison/tracking, I'd say. [Not to mention both have the arguably most disgusting weapon ever, in the projectile rifle]
I'm going to rest in the boat of long veterans I've seen voice this opinion many times over:
A bad saberist beats a bad gunner
an average saberist beats an average gunner
a great saberist loses to a great gunner
Hero's dash is pretty nasty versus sith, along the lines of BH poison/tracking, I'd say. [Not to mention both have the arguably most disgusting weapon ever, in the projectile rifle]
Chaos the Chaotic
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The median value against single life classes bar the ones mentioned were within 2.8-3.2. The absolute average being 3, I think it is safe to say that perceptions are very much within the "okay" range when generalised.
The disrepancy in skill-based balance is something we've also discussed internally at length. Introducing knockback would be a step in the right direction to bring new challenge to the Jedi class in a Noob vs Noob scenario, however it would be a significant nerf in the Pro vs Pro scenario.
Finding a solution that affects pro fights less would be the best direction. My first thought would be to look outside of the Jedi/Sith class for a solution. The option here is to reduce knockdown stuns for Force Push and Pull. This would make knockdowns less punishing and add more emphasis on positioning. The decrease should be fairly minor.
In a Pro vs Pro scenario, Push rarely makes the difference, but with noobs it is the ultimate decider.
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Jedi/Sith is punished if Force Push/Pull is used, regardless the Gunners blocked these abilities by walking or not. And you want to nerf the punishment for Gunners if they dont walk... why? Yes, Push rarely makes difference in "pro vs pro" combats, because said pro players can walk, and they dont spam Push unnecessarily, so in this case Push simply isnt used... if its used, it *has* an effect on the battle, regardless how "pro" these players are. I think (dont laugh) that it'd be better if the "less pro players" could finally learn how to walk, instead of nerfing Jedi/Sith.
Anyway I doubt its possible to balance the Jedi/Sith classes with Gunners, if you want to be authentic and if the players dont learn the basic mechanics of this mod... there's a duel mode for lightsaber combat, why dont you do a new gunner mode, where Jedi/Sith classes are unavailable? The whole gameplay would be different without Jedi/Sith classes and the "less pro players" wouldnt be knocked down by Force abilities, they'd be simply less accurate with most weapons.
Anyway I doubt its possible to balance the Jedi/Sith classes with Gunners, if you want to be authentic and if the players dont learn the basic mechanics of this mod... there's a duel mode for lightsaber combat, why dont you do a new gunner mode, where Jedi/Sith classes are unavailable? The whole gameplay would be different without Jedi/Sith classes and the "less pro players" wouldnt be knocked down by Force abilities, they'd be simply less accurate with most weapons.
BigBossBigTeef
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I just want the saber spam to stop, and in full authentic mode its impossible to do that depending on maps.
Jedi temple is the only map I can think of where a whole team can spawn with sabers in FA mode.
I don't have a problem with jedi/sith. I just don't like getting attacked by 8 at once. Makes it impossible to do anything. If you were fighting 8 gunners you can use cover and take pop shots. You can actually do something.
With jedi, they just deflect everything, force push your explosives, and can chase you down very easily.
If there was one or two, no problem. But 8 is too much.
It's slightly easier against sith because they don't have force speed, and arc trooper is a pretty cool guy. Eh kills sith and doesnt afraid of anything.
Jedi temple is the only map I can think of where a whole team can spawn with sabers in FA mode.
I don't have a problem with jedi/sith. I just don't like getting attacked by 8 at once. Makes it impossible to do anything. If you were fighting 8 gunners you can use cover and take pop shots. You can actually do something.
With jedi, they just deflect everything, force push your explosives, and can chase you down very easily.
If there was one or two, no problem. But 8 is too much.
It's slightly easier against sith because they don't have force speed, and arc trooper is a pretty cool guy. Eh kills sith and doesnt afraid of anything.
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Puppytine
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Not working
Melee wookies kill me over and over again, since I'm low skill it could be only my problem, but sometimes, or even anytime, I see wookies wipe half of imps team! Just running out of corner and smashing siths one to another, deadly boxing ftw.At least, they don't have godcaster anymore, which was a pain in the ass in 2008...
I feel the same, but this happens when I play sith (all the time, actually
) and meet two stormtroopers. No chance against blobs, even if there is more imps around.I always thought that all classes are equal, it makes me very sad to think that saberist are nothing more then support.
Oh my god, how can we even discuss balance jedi/gunner in case of many <some class> against <other class>? If one gunner could kill 8 jedi, that would indicates complete imbalance and overpowering! Such gunner in situation 1v1 would simply rape saberist without any hope. But I rarely see bunch of saberist raping a gunner, reverse situation a bit often to happen... for me, it looks like gunners are more popular. Anyhow, 8 vs 1 scenario is not a problem of class balance, it's a problem of teams balance -- obvious, some team has more players, or all skilled ones suddenly came to saem side.
No, actually, you are as good as dead.
EDIT: Just one more thing about balance: imo droids should be improved. For some time, I can't see any successful actions from them... People don't pick droids, and even when they do, more failure than wins... Even respawn doesn't helps... Looks like they are weaken than others, and because of this, unpopular.
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Interesting results. I like reading statistics, so I had the idea if it is possible to see the opinions of the exclusively jedi/sith players separately from the rest. Or even make 3 groups.
Group 1=who are exclusively playing jedi/sith.
Group 2=who are exclusively playing gunners.
Group 3=who aren't playing anything exclusively (they play jedi/sith and gunners equally).
I wonder if we could see players being biased in their opinion.
I'm not the one to engage in small talks on the forums (or even post anything at all), but I've read so many of your posts bigthief that I feel like telling you a few things. First an observation. On 2/3 of the screenshots you posted, a gunner is MVP (clone and et). It shows that you can succeed as a gunner between the jedi/sith spam.
Sticking to your teammate jedi/sith group isn't easy I admit it, but there is almost always at least one other gunner. Follow him everywhere, thus you will avoid the 1vs many situation which you hate so much. You will have someone to die with.
Also if you often find yourself in 1v8 situations, it means your team sucks. If you can't handle it mentally just quit the game, or switch sides. (though stacking is boring, cause sometimes you won't fight any opponents, your team just wins the round without you)
Learn to play clone if you haven't already. In my opinion clone is the best class against sith (clone still won't save you from 4-8 siths, in those situations wookie is your best bet). They have 2 features that make them very strong against the dark lords. Sprint and blob (the classic blob, not ion). Use stamina 2, so you can sprint and shoot with your rifle at the same time. I'm not going into details, send me a PM if you want me to convince you with real gameplay examples.
Try using jedi/sith and help your gunners, just to see things from the other side. (note: I think someone has already said that it's not easy)
Lastly I would recommend you not to think too much about others' in game attitude. Saves your mind some trouble.
Group 1=who are exclusively playing jedi/sith.
Group 2=who are exclusively playing gunners.
Group 3=who aren't playing anything exclusively (they play jedi/sith and gunners equally).
I wonder if we could see players being biased in their opinion.
I'm not the one to engage in small talks on the forums (or even post anything at all), but I've read so many of your posts bigthief that I feel like telling you a few things. First an observation. On 2/3 of the screenshots you posted, a gunner is MVP (clone and et). It shows that you can succeed as a gunner between the jedi/sith spam.
Sticking to your teammate jedi/sith group isn't easy I admit it, but there is almost always at least one other gunner. Follow him everywhere, thus you will avoid the 1vs many situation which you hate so much. You will have someone to die with.
Also if you often find yourself in 1v8 situations, it means your team sucks. If you can't handle it mentally just quit the game, or switch sides. (though stacking is boring, cause sometimes you won't fight any opponents, your team just wins the round without you)
Learn to play clone if you haven't already. In my opinion clone is the best class against sith (clone still won't save you from 4-8 siths, in those situations wookie is your best bet). They have 2 features that make them very strong against the dark lords. Sprint and blob (the classic blob, not ion). Use stamina 2, so you can sprint and shoot with your rifle at the same time. I'm not going into details, send me a PM if you want me to convince you with real gameplay examples.
Try using jedi/sith and help your gunners, just to see things from the other side. (note: I think someone has already said that it's not easy)
Lastly I would recommend you not to think too much about others' in game attitude. Saves your mind some trouble.
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I think it goes as follows for the match-ups:
Average Skill vs Average Skill = Jedi Favoured
High Skill vs High Skill = Gunner Favoured
But how to make it more balanced between both matchup types.
I think the same is true of classes:
Average Skill = Soldier is weak-normal
High Skill = Soldier is overpowered
Reinforcements become drastically more powerful the better the player is, because at the end of the day 2-4 headshots with e-11 will kill most classes and you get 3 chances to do just that. The lower hp pool becomes almost irrelevant (especially when you can essentially tank something with a single life that would instagib other classes) when you have high movement speed (equal to Jedi/ET with Close combat 2) and the same powerful gun.
I think nerfs to soldiers (specifically close combat, just remove this and bake kick and kata into the normal class) would help Jedi and other classes being so weak against them. Alternatively removing E-11 Rank 3 might also help, forcing the Soldier class to rely more on Primary fire only using secondary to spray.
The velocity change in particular, while one of my favourite additions has made soldier extremely strong while making classes like SBD, Deka and Wookiee weaker respectively.
Since velocity being a smaller target makes a massive difference.
Average Skill vs Average Skill = Jedi Favoured
High Skill vs High Skill = Gunner Favoured
But how to make it more balanced between both matchup types.
I think the same is true of classes:
Average Skill = Soldier is weak-normal
High Skill = Soldier is overpowered
Reinforcements become drastically more powerful the better the player is, because at the end of the day 2-4 headshots with e-11 will kill most classes and you get 3 chances to do just that. The lower hp pool becomes almost irrelevant (especially when you can essentially tank something with a single life that would instagib other classes) when you have high movement speed (equal to Jedi/ET with Close combat 2) and the same powerful gun.
I think nerfs to soldiers (specifically close combat, just remove this and bake kick and kata into the normal class) would help Jedi and other classes being so weak against them. Alternatively removing E-11 Rank 3 might also help, forcing the Soldier class to rely more on Primary fire only using secondary to spray.
The velocity change in particular, while one of my favourite additions has made soldier extremely strong while making classes like SBD, Deka and Wookiee weaker respectively.
Since velocity being a smaller target makes a massive difference.
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What to do with deflect? Sometimes there is a jedi/sith with deflect on a corridor and gunners can't do anything against it. If you shoot he
deflects it back. You could go closer, but getting close without shooting means he has a lot of fp and can kill you easily. I think we should still shoot it, but teammates think otherwise and get angry if I shoot.
deflects it back. You could go closer, but getting close without shooting means he has a lot of fp and can kill you easily. I think we should still shoot it, but teammates think otherwise and get angry if I shoot.
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They are equal in their own right. Every class is capable of killing another class. However, this is a team game and in a team game classes have roles. Jedi is that of a support. A support doesn't mean they cant go on killing rampages either. Supports are VERY valuable in team games and without them the tank, carry, whatever wouldn't function. In the battle of Geonosis in EP2 did you see Jedi abandoning their clones to go whack a random dude for kill score? No, they stood in front of their clones deflecting blaster shots back at enemy droids while clones shot over their shoulder. In MB2 we don't have any incentives to actually support that type of gameplay, and most people I've watched play treat them as solo classes. They're not and never have been. In test sessions we've had where we do pure gunner vs saberists the gunners win every time. They need gunners behind them to be fully effective.