Questionnaire regarding Jedi/Sith

[GoodOl'Ben]

I am somewhat curious as to what people think about the current state of Jedi/Sith vs Gunner. So I've put up a small survey for you peeps to fill up >: )

Jedi/Sith vs Gunner Survey

 

[Puppytine]

What to do with deflect? Sometimes there is a jedi/sith with deflect on a corridor and gunners can't do anything against it. If you shoot he
deflects it back.

That's strange. Starting to play about month ago, after long pause since 2007-2008, I've found deflecting isn't working anymore, at least, not like it was in 2008... Those days it was actually useful.

Jedi is that of a support. A support doesn't mean they cant go on killing rampages either. Supports are VERY valuable in team games and without them the tank, carry, whatever wouldn't function.

That's a little bit frustrating. I understand that teamplay is core, is heart of each game where teams exists, but teamplay != support It makes mb2 looks like NWN with all those things like "warriors, druids, paladins standing under the fire and only take shots, while sorcerers and wizards act like artillery, casting spells from behind".
I like DnD, but I expect a bit other stuff from mb2...

In the battle of Geonosis in EP2 did you see Jedi abandoning their clones to go whack a random dude for kill score?

Movies are not guide in this case. In game, balance is much more important. Furthermore, there was scenes where jedi destroy a lot of droids without efforts, it cannot be reproduced in game.

 

[Supa]

That's a little bit frustrating. I understand that teamplay is core, is heart of each game where teams exists, but teamplay != support It makes mb2 looks like NWN with all those things like "warriors, druids, paladins standing under the fire and only take shots, while sorcerers and wizards act like artillery, casting spells from behind".
I like DnD, but I expect a bit other stuff from mb2...

Support is Jedi/Sith's primary role, given how their kit works. I don't mind if people want to play them like a warrior, but it was never intended to be this easy. Rushing in ahead of your team and running straight at gunfire should have it's risks, no matter what class you're playing; Jedi and Sith are no different in this case.

Movies are not guide in this case. In game, balance is much more important. Furthermore, there was scenes where jedi destroy a lot of droids without efforts, it cannot be reproduced in game.

They aren't the movies, and it is impossible to simulate the movies so perfectly, but Mace has the right idea here. I see so many Jedi and Sith trying to fly solo and abandoning their gunner teammates, losing the round and then complaining that their team was beaten so easily without actually asking themselves what they were doing while their team was dying.

It's rather frustrating to play with people like that, but unfortunately the message we send with Jedi and Sith being so forgiving and easy to pick up for an average player is that you don't need to be a team player.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Oh lord, just because they can function best as support doesn't mean you can't play them as anything else lulz.
They're also a ninja class! And a rambo class! And a turtle class! You choose how to play them. Don't you listen to people who say you can't do that! And you know, no one is actually saying that. It's just a role they're best suited based on what they can best offer.

The only thing that makes them a support is that they can and have abilities that function well in that regard. The ability to block and the ability to push/paralyze/deflect. So in other words: Do Not Panic. It's still not cookiee cutter madness. That's Thursdays.

That's strange. Starting to play about month ago, after long pause since 2007-2008, I've found deflecting isn't working anymore, at least, not like it was in 2008... Those days it was actually useful.

If you don't know how to use it....ask.
It's a bit underwhelming to learn your criteria is based on ignorance.

The deflect mechanic has been changed. It's no longer automatic. You have to hit mblock at the correct time. There is a 1 second cooldown between presses.
You'll also find thats one of the reasons you have to hold walk now to use mblock animations.

I'm guessing its not written anywhere anymore thanks to recent events.

 

[Puppytine]

They aren't the movies, and it is impossible to simulate the movies so perfectly, but Mace has the right idea here. I see so many Jedi and Sith trying to fly solo and abandoning their gunner teammates, losing the round and then complaining that their team was beaten so easily without actually asking themselves what they were doing while their team was dying.

It's rather frustrating to play with people like that, but unfortunately the message we send with Jedi and Sith being so forgiving and easy to pick up for an average player is that you don't need to be a team player.

Well, once again: I'm not the guy who deny teamplay and running away from the team, I simply points that gameplay for saberists a little bit... entanglement. Provides not much freedom, and makes your role not so important as gunners, that's all.
But that's offtopic anyway. Summary of what I wanna say is: melee wookies and blobs of stormtroopers are overpowered, droids are underpowered. And by the way, now I understand that sbd are little OP too... I always play sith, so I never feel it at myself, but when I spectate I actual see how jedi die one by another from super battle droid combo punch+shot.

If you don't know how to use it....ask.
It's a bit underwhelming to learn your criteria is based on ignorance.

The deflect mechanic has been changed. It's no longer automatic. You have to hit mblock at the correct time. There is a 1 second cooldown between presses.
You'll also find thats one of the reasons you have to hold walk now to use mblock animations.

I'm guessing its not written anywhere anymore thanks to recent events.

Thank you. I didn't know about that, try it next time playing.
But that does not makes me wrong: watching how others play, I didn't see deflecting using a lot, at least, not like it was in 2008, and it's not so deadly like it was.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Oh lord, just because they can function best as support doesn't mean you can't play them as anything else lulz..

No one said that.

That's a little bit frustrating. I understand that teamplay is core, is heart of each game where teams exists, but teamplay != support It makes mb2 looks like NWN

The carries, tanks, etc still have to teamplay too. So of course its not equal to support.'

Being a support is a component of teamplay. Not the entire thing.

And by the way, now I understand that sbd are little OP too... I always play sith, so I never feel it at myself, but when I spectate I actual see how jedi die one by another from super battle droid combo punch+shot.

Cause they're idiots trying to 1v1 something with lightsaber resistant armor known as cortosis and not actually being their support character? Shocking they die when that happens. That is the exact mentality that I am talking about people playing with. Its full solo yolo. If they played more classes they would actually know about that armor type.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Oh my god, how can we even discuss balance jedi/gunner in case of many <some class> against <other class>? If one gunner could kill 8 jedi, that would indicates complete imbalance and overpowering! Such gunner in situation 1v1 would simply rape saberist without any hope. But I rarely see bunch of saberist raping a gunner, reverse situation a bit often to happen... for me, it looks like gunners are more popular. Anyhow, 8 vs 1 scenario is not a problem of class balance, it's a problem of teams balance -- obvious, some team has more players, or all skilled ones suddenly came to saem side.

The argument here is that whole teams play jedi and sith except for a few people and they get curb stomped because nobody is being a gunner with them or supporting them against spam. Everyone wants to sword fight and ignores their gunners. I posted pictures proving Jedi spam is real and ignoring the guns on their team. Then I see developers come out in the thread saying they are supposed to support classes, when all I ever see is them rushing towards the enemy team ignoring me and the occasional bounty hunter or hero im standing next too. And they are either getting wiped or wiping the enemy team.

No, actually, you are as good as dead.

Except you are wrong. I came from games like Red orchestra, Insurgency, Quake, Tribes. Even in counter strike one person can wipe a whole enemy team. I know hardcore shooters and it is significantly easier to fight 8 people with guns, than 8 people with swords and super powers. You can look up on you-tube of any game where somebody with a gun wipes the entire enemy team with even more odds stacked against them.

Limiting the number of people who can pick a class seems to force people to play the their classes as intended and promote actual teamwork, where in open mode its just pure hell for anyone looking for a fair fight. As awesome as cat lady's FA server is, I cant play on it because my screen either freezes saying connection error, or I lag horribly and being a hindrance to my team. Lag hurts a lot in this game compared to what im used too.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

mb2 [open] mode will never limit class selection, it defeats the spirit of the mode. And the testers are right, if you play on AOD when the server is getting packed you'll see a heavy shift towards gunner focus, and those gunners tear shit up en masse.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I play on AOD because everyone else does.
I even sat in the Us FA server for 2 hours. Only 4 people joined and then played with me for 15 minutes before going to pandemonium.

It seems to be the only mode people play as well. People say FA sucks but I never see any actual arguments or evidence to support it sucks.

 

[Puppytine]

Cause they're idiots trying to 1v1 something with lightsaber resistant armor known as cortosis and not actually being their support character? Shocking they die when that happens. That is the exact mentality that I am talking about people playing with. Its full solo yolo. If they played more classes they would actually know about that armor type.

But don't think they still deserve some way to be balanced against sbd? You know, game not always going like straight road; sometimes, gunners already dead, sometimes, they're too far away, and jedi have to do something. After all, just like Anakin said "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!", it's about points of view: from yours, this is normal, from my it's hole in balance.
Also, it looks like you think that balance includes correct team filling, and does not involve each-class-versus-each-class-equality... I'm not sure about that, this put to many responsibility to random people who connected to server and are not even in same clan.

Everyone wants to sword fight and ignores their gunners. I posted pictures proving Jedi spam is real and ignoring the guns on their team.

At some of your pictures, gunners have better stats.

Except you are wrong. I came from games like Red orchestra, Insurgency, Quake, Tribes. Even in counter strike one person can wipe a whole enemy team. I know hardcore shooters and it is significantly easier to fight 8 people with guns, than 8 people with swords and super powers. You can look up on you-tube of any game where somebody with a gun wipes the entire enemy team with even more odds stacked against them.

This can be only with huge skill diff, but in most cases 1 will be just an easy kill for 8, not regarding a class.
With such skill difference one gunner can eliminate eighth sith, I'm sure. But if some game allows to do such things while skill level is same at all players, this means game has problems with balance.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

But don't think they still deserve some way to be balanced against sbd?

Thing is, SBD has a hard counter for Jedi. Just like ARC has a hard counter for Droideka. You have to approach the situation and adapt, not go yolo and just try and kill them face first.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

At some of your pictures, gunners have better stats.

What do you mean some? All of the gunners have good scores in all the screens, I was just providing proof of the class spam exists.
I should of mentioned I played empire those rounds and switched to rebels just to take screens.

I also should of taken pictures of both teams, but I didn't have it hooked to steam so I had to alt enter, print screen, and paste in paint, the process was annoying so I only did it a few times.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Thing is, SBD has a hard counter for Jedi. Just like ARC has a hard counter for Droideka. You have to approach the situation and adapt, not go yolo and just try and kill them face first.

Or, Yolo with red and purple

But if you got the balls, use blue!

 

[Szunti]

SBD and wookie is still weaker than jedi/sith in 1v1 I think, if they use purple or red, crouch and doesn't attack mindlessly. They are useful to hold the jedi/sith back and deadly with gunners behind them.

 

[Bombad General]

BigBoss, I recommend you make use of Rally as much as possible. If you see any soldiers on your side, especially if they are any good, immediately take a Commander with Rally. Rally is very OP in this game, even before the Soldier temporary buff was added, as it always gives you the advantage of numbers.

On the flip side, Solds are a great way to really get a handle on how to beat any class, especially glowsticks because it gives you three chances to practice every round. If you can beat a glowstick with one soldier, you can beat them with any class.

As far as countering deflect, if you have a teammate pin the deflector down by firing near them and let your teammate flank. Almost always the Jedi/Sith will just stand there trying to deflect. Once the glowstick goes for one of you it is an easy kill for the other.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

BigBoss, I recommend you make use of Rally as much as possible. If you see any soldiers on your side, especially if they are any good, immediately take a Commander with Rally. Rally is very OP in this game, even before the Soldier temporary buff was added, as it always gives you the advantage of numbers.

I know 2 people who actively play soldier and its the EW guys. Nobody else seems to play soldier except for the EW guys I see when I get on.
I get rally when I see soldiers, but people rather play ET/CM or the hero class/bt or the clones/mando.
And I don't blame them, they are better equip to deal with sith and jedi classes and very self sufficient.

As far as countering deflect, if you have a teammate pin the deflector down by firing near them and let your teammate flank. Almost always the Jedi/Sith will just stand there trying to deflect. Once the glowstick goes for one of you it is an easy kill for the other.

Yes I know group method works, and it works well. The problem is the people around me seem to don't want to actually work together. I got maybe 3 people I make contacts with, and that is Captain Melons, Friend, and some polish guy I can't remember his user name. We stick together whenever I see them in the servers, and lot easier to deal with people when somebody actively follows me around.

 

[Sylar]

Look for ways to better convey information to players about these perks (visual cues, more visible documentation)

I think a brief text/explanation of what that stance perk do in the hilt selection menu should be enough.

 

[Hexodious]

I know 2 people who actively play soldier and its the EW guys. Nobody else seems to play soldier except for the EW guys I see when I get on.
I get rally when I see soldiers, but people rather play ET/CM or the hero class/bt or the clones/mando.
And I don't blame them, they are better equip to deal with sith and jedi classes and very self sufficient.

I play soldier on AOD (mostly because soldier is op and I have EU ping) and I do absolutely fine against Jedi/Sith.

Tips vs Jedi (E-11 specific):

• You can also aim at peoples legs as it drains the same FP and generally away from the saber to counter deflect.
• Use primary e-11 as it deals more fp damage per hit and is harder to deflect as you can randomize rof and it has a higher velocity than secondary.
• When they swing you aim head/upper chest and run (or occasionally crouch to dodge under the swing)
• Close-combat 2 makes you move as Fast as a Jedi/Commander, movement is incredibly powerful - all non-fast stances slow the attacker down slightly.
• When they push you walk and shoot them for free damage (and additional fp drain).
• When they swingblock the swing is interrupted and unless they have defence 3 they've taken bonus FP damage and you've interrupted the swing - walk immediately to counter a follow-up push.
• If they try and fake you out by jumping over your head just crouch and shoot them while moving into a spot where they either land on your head or you move behind them as they take double FP damage while mid-air (note being on your head counts as being mid-air), as you are in maximum IDR damage bonus you'll shred them in seconds.
• If they flying kick/slap, crouch and shoot them.
• Play Jedi so you know the movement patterns that are generally the most successful and predict it.
• Listen to sound FX and learn FP costs, they give away tons about position/health/abilities(remaining fp).
• Be aware of animations and approach the stances differently, don't rush a fast user bait them.
• When you are against multiple Jedi alone initially position yourself so that they are all in-front of you, if you are surround move in a way that they are likely to hit each others sabers while attacking.
• Jedi are sneaky, check the roof tops in areas where they can drop down.
• If someone kills you using a specific movement/ability (like flying kick) they are likely to employ the same tactic again, abuse this with your extra lives and bait them into making that same movement for easy kills.
• Vs Lightning, remember they can't push for a few seconds after using this break LOS or range.
• Vs Grip, remember they can't grip you unless they are above 70fp, this is very easy to shoot down - don't let them bait you into running.

I've written the above in a messy fashion but I hope the above helps at least someone.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Aim gun - pull trigger = Profit.

 

[Crusader]

balance is good, skill required is extremely skewed towards gunners i.e. jedi takes little skill but is equally strong

knockback should be introduced to reward consecutive hp hits to remedy this, other than that removing perks like purple's and red's is something that also should happen imo

It is my belief that qwerty is 100% correct in this statement.

 

[DeshieL]

Many players, especialy rookies don't even bother adjusting thier mouse sensitivity.