Push 3 Balance

[SomeGuy]

Welcome to the topic. Please excuse the name, I didn't think too hard about it but this should probably be called

Force Push Re Balance​

Let me start of here by first saying I do not think Push is Overpowered and this is Not a Nerf Thread. But there is a problem I have with how it affects gameplay. The issue that I want addressed here is The Use of Push 3 as a player crutch and this is what I want to see removed.
Not sure what I mean by that? Let me explain then. I'm sure a lot of you have noticed that Push 3 is easy to use to knock down targets and get some nice ground kills. All the while it is also easy to stop by walking, crouching or standing still. But the real issue is that it is much easier to use Push and very forgiving in mistakes by the user.
What does this mean? Well, simply put, it means that a Pusher has to put forth less effort in an engagement as opposed to his target. And to add a little more to it, a Force User without Push level 3 has to put forth even more effort than his opponent if not the same. This is not good from a gameplay balance standpoint.
What happens from this, then? Well, most Force User class configs basically have Push 3 as a necessity rather than an option. Players become reliant on it and other great elements become unused.
But hasn't Push remained the same for many years? Yes it has, but I never noticed the problem until recently.
How did I see this issue? It actually happened to be the large influx of brand new players. Watching them progress in player ability map after map or even days. But the thing I noticed the most is that they all used Push 3.
What's wrong with them all using Push? Nothing, except for the fact that they try out other classes or force powers but fail and go back to Push 3.
Why would they go back to using Push 3 over and over? After seeing this and examining it, I saw it helped their player ability. Sure, they still weren't very good but they were substantially better than not using it.
So this is a New Player problem? No, not at all. The new players merely opened my eyes by seeing the sheer number of them doing it. I am certain everybody knows of one or a few players who exclusively play Jedi with Push 3.
How does Push help these players out so much? From what I concluded it is because Push is extremely simple and easy to use. It can even be used in a majority of situations. Not much effort has to be used to be averagely effective at the game now.

Now in my opinion this is not fair at all because all players should have to give the same amount of effort to be effective. Sure, all players are different and some are better than others or vice versa. But they all try about the same to be a positive contribution to the team. Just because someone is good or bad at playing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

So, from all this I try and figure out a way to complete this objective: Make Push Harder to Use for Bad Players but Still Retain it's Effectiveness for Good Players.

Here we go then, my idea is below. I am certainly also not saying my idea is the best one or the only option. The one directly below is an edit after reading things from this thread and mashing them together while also thinking of other gameplay elements and how they work. My very original idea, which was pointed out would actually be a nerf (which is not my plan) is at the very bottom.

Probably the most important part of the topic is that these are all suggestions, which means they are not guaranteed to be implemented and are also all subject to change. Everybody here should be striving to make the game a better experience. I implore everybody to share their suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. The key word is collaboration.

Another extremely important part of it is that we all discuss this in a constructive, mature, and polite manner. I don't want to see the thread devolve any more than it has because there are some very good ideas here. If you need an example, here are a couple.

This is how to not be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: Hah, (x) is fine you just need to do (z) better.
This is how to be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: I don't understand your issue with (x), you can just do (z), can you help me understand?​

So after thinking through after all the things people posted I came up with a new idea built upon some of it. Of course all not set in stone.

Push 3 changes to have a narrower knockdown area which is like a tube in front of the Jedi that is a bit around the crosshairs. Not as pinpoint as a blaster shot but they would still basically need to be aiming at them. But here's the twist, it only is like that for instant button pushes. To compensate the animation should be sped up by about a quarter of a second, reducing the time that the Jedi is vulnerable. But wait, there's more. The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this but this is just expanding on the idea so it may be too much. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.

This can even be applied to Pull to make it affect a group after a charge, which would give that power a bigger oompf it definitely needs!

There have been a number of ideas posted in the thread, which may need to be expanded on and complimented, such as:

• All levels of Push knockdown at different ranges and spreads
• Changes in Force Point cost
• Changes in Class Point cost
• Delay before pushing
• Charge up before use
• Differing types of knockback areas

Below is my first original post.

Now before you all start saying "l2walk" what this stems from is just the amount of Jedi/Sith who only use Push 3 as their main offensive weapon. In my opinion it is way too effective and versatile for how cheap it costs in both class points and FP. When looking at Pull, not only does it cost more, but it is harder to use due to the direct aim required and shorter range. I have seen plenty of players who don't use Push 3, but in comparison to the majority that do they need to play a lot smarter and harder. Push is just too easy.

My proposed fix is very simple although I don't know if the engine allows it. Have push be the way it is for range and AOE, especially projectiles, except for the knockdown which needs to be on the crosshair. Of course the closer the range the more lax this would be and anyone pushed outside of the knockdown sweet spot would still get pushed back, to help get those guys on a cliff. Pull could even be reworked the same way so a large group of people could be nudged closer rather than fall down.

This would increase the skill required to use it and help reduce the class spam for people looking to get easy kills but still maintain the support role it can fill.

Here is a representation of what I mean.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/DarkFett/push._zpsbkp88iqp.jpg

 

[Insane]

This. ^^^^^^ This. This is the whole purpose of the thread here. Even out the ability without actually nerfing it or overpowering it. That's not really an easy thing to do.

.........this thread makes my brain hurt, push Jedi/Sith are only a problem if you don't know how to counter them.

 

[Supa]

.........this thread makes my brain hurt, push Jedi/Sith are only a problem if you don't know how to counter them.

In all cases, the counter is flawless aim, which is hard in a game with bullet travel speed no matter how close you are to the person you're firing at. That's a separate problem altogether.

Again, the thread is about push, not Jedi/Sith.

 

[Derek Jeter]

As a gunner, I get more kills against experienced jedi/sith than I do against experienced gunners.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

What's your point? Thats an issue of form and the basic mechanics of gameplay for a melee class vs a ranged class.
It's a no brainer you can kill more people as a gunner since they're not limited by range like melee classes.
Just like its a no brainer you're more likely to kill a player that has to close the distance and melee you. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And the thread is about push. Ease of use and all that jazz.

You know, contrary to what some people spew, its never been perfectly balanced because a good chunk have always viewed it as too easy and favorable.
You can repeat the line of perfectly balanced over and over, it doesn't change the fact its just a soundbyte the overly fearful repeat to themselves as a mantra to prevent, yes I know, it's a vile word, - change. People do like their comfort.

Other arguments - Just because it hasn't been touched to any real extent doesn't mean that was the right choice
And to add overall, talking to devs here = And just because it 'has' been touched doesn't mean it shouldnt be reverted. Sometimes you make bad decisions. Swallow your pride. Real men do. Women too. Unless its that 'tom'.

Also, everyone knows about walk whose played for than 2 days. That is not a valid counter argument. It's not a perfect counter. Again that word...perfect.
Even without being pushed down, even without being used - it still controls player behavior with the implicit threat; as well as limiting movement and loss of movement control.

Why not make it a tad more skill based to use? Instead of dumbing everything down that you don't nerf to uselessness and inferiority, why not add some skill dimension to it? Still make it just as viable but hey, maybe a microscopic more bit of effort?

I like the ops idea, it makes sense, it can work, it should work and the people crying over any change because its change is hilarious.
If push isn't a big deal, if its so easy to counter, if you have no issues with it, why would you care so much what happens to it?
No brainer there. People like easy modes with great rewards. And thats really all there is to it.

Fucking drama queens. Grow a pair.

 

[SomeGuy]

.........this thread makes my brain hurt, push Jedi/Sith are only a problem if you don't know how to counter them.

But they aren't the problem and I do know how to counter them. The point is Push is too easy to just use, but the problem is how to change that without affecting balance. So I posted this thread and read people's ideas and modified my idea to fit those ideas together to what I think sounds very balanced and would give the desired effect. Hell, the concept could even be applied to Pull to make it worth while! Pulling a whole group would be fun.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

In before l2walk better crowd comes out.

Here's another idea to chew up

What do grip and lightning have in common?
They need a minimum force threshold to even use. Ridiculous since even lightning is inferior to the ease and use of push.

And as to grip? It's damn right shocking that such a grossly inferior power has such criteria. I think lightning is above 50 and grip is even higher...
*snickers in disgust* Mmmmmmmmm, chocolate.

Here's an idea. Why not have Push have the same criteria? Let's reward the gunner for draining the force users force. Let's punish misuse and spam.
Alas, spammers and desperate tools will qq nay nay.

No jedi or sith should be able to use force push or force pull before 50 force! Or 40 if thats a less fearful number.
What number would terrify you less?

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Preston liked this post.

I noticed your still here. This discussion is going to happen no matter what.
You can passively aggressively like posts all you want, this discussion will happen.

But they aren't the problem and I do know how to counter them. The point is Push is too easy to just use, but the problem is how to change that without affecting balance. So I posted this thread and read people's ideas and modified my idea to fit those ideas together to what I think sounds very balanced and would give the desired effect. Hell, the concept could even be applied to Pull to make it worth while! Pulling a whole group would be fun.

These are the people who play jedi 24/7.

They don't care about the other classes, they completely ignore the fact 5 other classes exist.
This is a common trait among-st everyone who defends push because god forbid do people care about balance anymore.

People stack teams, in numbers and skill wise and the offenders are always lightsticks. New players get frustrated either because they cant learn the class or they are dealing with push spam. None of the veteran players ever put a single thought into what its like to be new again.

Just because forum etiquette is decent if not civil, doesn't mean these people don't show a different shade of their personality while in game. I have been in several situations in the past week while in game observing the people that defend thier force power. Frankly the behavior and bias is disgusting. And there is nothing we can really do about that because they simply been here longer than us and people only care about registration dates apparently. Puppytine is not included amongst these people because he spends more time helping people to get their games working than playing.

The reason ive discovered why there is so much repeated arguments, derails, and the what not is because they just cannot deal with change. They are already pissed about the color system with sabers, and outsiders like us trying to change their class is simply heretical. When the whole point is throw shit at a dart board and discuss to death what works and what doesn't.

I expressed in great thought about knock downs be universal to all levels push and knock downs only take effect if aimed at via reticule. This would have no effect on projectiles and grenades of any kind when they insist it does. I tried to bargain and give a buff to compensate what they classify as a nerf. When its not a nerf period. They are just being dramatic because drama apparently gives people victim cards to use. Of course this is also null to puppytine. He actually values discussion.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Don't be silly. You're a biased gunner.

Is what they'll say.

Try logic. If push is so easily countered and easy to beat. Why then do they take issue with changing it? When, by implication, it would only be effective against noobs who...have not learned to walk!

Which leads to this strange notion...why are we giving ourselves such an easy way to kill and exploit noobs? Are some of us so insecure that they need such a...crutch, even against noobs

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldnt we be giving them a handicap?

Chaos for President.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Don't be silly. You're a biased gunner. Is what they'll say.

You are entirely correct, I play all 5 classes except jedi.
I will admit im biased because for fuck sakes somebody needs to defend gunners.

Even if I am against entire groups of people, I will not wavier and stand with them.
There is more to starwars than fucking lazer swords.

Needs
Moar
Dakka

I intend to learn saber one day, but I am still trying to master anti saber techniques.
And that is going to take some time. And when I do try to learn the class chances are I will still hate it and confirm that its too easy against gunners.

Try logic. If push is so easily countered and easy to beat. Why then do they take issue with changing it? When, by implication, it would only be effective against noobs who...have not learned to walk!

We tried that and still told us to walk. There has been so many counter points and the only defense given is the shift key. Yeah no, under any debate rules, law, whatever. Repeating yourself without evidence to support and back it up makes it less and less credible.

Which leads to this strange notion...why are we giving ourselves such an easy way to kill and exploit noobs? Are some of us so insecure that they need such a...crutch, even against noobs

Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldnt we be giving them a handicap?

I have no idea why I decided to put you on ignore.
You made more sense past discussions all most of the threads ive read.
I disagree with your snarky attitude but I think thats a product of the environment, somebody needs to be negative in such a positive environment to break echo chambers.

I have said some stright up crazy shit regards to balancing and that was to initiate positive ideas to counter my bad ones because I know for a fact I couldn't come up with anything that made sense I still need at-least a year with the game to have everything memorized. (I have yet to find the ocean floor in these depths).

And if I didn't put a dent in the echo chamber I sure as hope you do, because something needs to be done. Gunners need something, be it a buff to our weapons, health or armor. Each shots draining more fp so force powers cant be spammed. Just something needs to exist to counter push spam. Or even ignoring that and semi authentic being the go to game mode. I am starved for my classes to receive any attention at this point.

Otherwise we are going back to one to two filled servers. And guess whose those servers are gonna be and held under a monopoly again.

 

[Phelps]

But they aren't the problem and I do know how to counter them. The point is Push is too easy to just use, but the problem is how to change that without affecting balance. So I posted this thread and read people's ideas and modified my idea to fit those ideas together to what I think sounds very balanced and would give the desired effect. Hell, the concept could even be applied to Pull to make it worth while! Pulling a whole group would be fun.

Interesting idea about a Pull. It certainly needs something. It would be good for it to work the same way as Push would. Also there would have to be some technique for Pulling the weapons. I guess precise aim and pushing the button without charging could stay as it is (on lvl3).
Also thanks Ouj, I get it what you mean.
I will ignore the fact, that BigBoss is insluting me and my input here.

 

[Damn Polak]

now this thread reminds me of me arguing with my sister
no matter how good you think your ideas are, the others will come up with something else
or laugh at your posts
or get offended
or all of the above
it's not a right way to discuss, i'm surprised this thread is not locked yet
it's been going for over 20 pages, do you think devs will sacrifice their precious time going through all this just to get the input they need?
if we really can't get to consensus, why not create a pool? i know rtv often gives shitty maps, but imo it's worth trying
maybe from now on let's post only the ideas on the discussed push nerf/buff or why exactly is it perfectly balanced

inb4 lol jk how old are you?
inb4 he started who cares?
-----no trolling/butthurt below this line please-------------------------------------------------------------------------

i got a new idea:
to reduce abusability and maintain the defensive ability, do you think it would be okay to disallow saberist to swing for a certain time after pushing, with a delay allowing an E.T. to recover from knockdown?

 

[Phelps]

i got a new idea:
to reduce abusability and maintain the defensive ability, do you think it would be okay to disallow saberist to swing for a certain time after pushing, with a delay allowing an E.T. to recover from knockdown?

What delay would that be? This idea would certainly make Push totally useless in the fights, if the delay allows classes to get up - the only one slower than ET is sold, if I remember correctly. What would be point of using Push in fights? I can only see one argument, and that is, closing the distance without harm, because gunner is down, not shooting. On the other hand, Jedi can close the gap between gunner and him without a harm even now, he deflects (FP is certainly drained, but still) and is not limited by not being allowed to swing. If anything, Push would stop being used in fights. Or did I understand it incorrectly?

 

[Damn Polak]

If anything, Push would stop being used in fights. Or did I understand it incorrectly?

that's right, it would discourage using push in 1v1 situations
however, now that i think of it, it would make misusing grenades too forgiving, there has to be another solution
maybe making the knockdown effect area narrower is actually the best solution suggested itt after all

 

[andrew]

that's right, it would discourage using push in 1v1 situations

what is the point of that at all? i dont understand. how are people still not clarifying things in this thread?

what is the problem with push?

are people legitimately concerned that new players are at too much of an advantage using push in 1v1 situations? if we're talking about 1v1s, pull is significantly better to an absurd degree. theres no reason to discourage push in 1v1 situations whatsoever because it isn't an issue in 1v1 situations. if someone is so bad that you're upset that they got a lucky kill on you using push, how can you justify externalizing that issue instead of blaming yourself for misplaying?

people are just throwing out random ideas addressing completely different problems and then agreeing and disagreeing at random. if discussion is going to continue the topic should just be remade with this type of stuff clarified.

 

[Phelps]

that's right, it would discourage using push in 1v1 situations

It would discourage using Push in every possible fight you can think of.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Delay to swinging after push would suck. If the dude gets knocked down then the Jedi is well within his rights to slice that dude, it just needs to be more difficult to achieve the knockdown.

 

[Puppytine]

Just discussing how to improve the game. Some people may think that an idea is great but a fresh set of eyes can see some issue the other overlooked. What idea would you have to make Push less of the crutch some people use it as, less of the main center of Jedi, but still retain it's effectiveness? Jedi have a lot to bring to the table and it's definitely more than just Push.

Your ideas all are basically "nerf push", I'm afraid to say. By nerfing push you would nerf jedi as well, if you care so much people don't use other saberists feats you should offer something to buff, to keep sith balanced, but I can see nothing valuable for sith in your first post.

I disagree.

Why?! Why, why, you gonna sacrifice balance for some strange idea "push is too easy"? That's make no sense to me.

Depends on what the gunner class is and how their points are set up. ARC with PLX or a Soldier without a grenade are in serious trouble.

ARC with PLX... this is beyond of my knowledge, I'm not sure what does that mean, but anyway, by my experience I find ARCs at pretty good position 1 vs 1: they can shoot while they on the floor, they have improved dexterity and can avoid sabers even better than other gunner' classes.
Speaking of points, it shouldn't be a problem of sith, a gunner who assigned his points by some wrong way. After all, saberless jedi/sith has much more troubles fighting somebody 1 on 1, they are heavy dependent on support.
Soldier can simply hold walk all the time, and then shoot a sith when he attempts to swing on soldier. It's all about skill, and I still believe both of them have equal chances.
And don't forget soldiers have reinforcement, while sith don't.

In the smaller arc concept there will be no change to affecting projectiles just people getting knocked over will need to be closer to the middle of the arc, this is still my preferred change since it's not too invasive and can be adjusted for balance easily. Then there's another idea with a charge, tap it and it'll just push projectiles, charge it and it'll still push projeciles, but will knock dudes down too. Had you read the thread you'd get that. It's been stated many times.

OK, that idea at least isn't weird, but it's still a nerf.
It wouldn't be a nerf only if push also would do some hp damage, but this would change the whole game concept, and a lot of people (gunners) would complain that push had been actually buffed, and other group (saberist) would still claiming that push had been nerfed.

Why we should make experiments on something that isn't actually broken?

To be fair, grip is only useful in 1v1 situations where it's basically a win button but in most others it's pretty crap.

Grip should be reworked so it wouldn't be useless when used in multiple opponents environment and wouldn't be overpowered in 1 vs 1 scenario.

I do however like the new deflect, still effective but takes skill to use rather than the old passive deflect which was too easy.

Deflect is reduced almost to null, and aiming isn't biggest problem. It drains fp to quickly, even at level 3, so it's much more better just hold block and use other ways to kill a gunner.

But with that attitude development would've stopped at B17. Cos it was fine.

You always have a bugs to fix, and polish everything else. Also some changes actually improved game, like a balcony on dotf.
But I really, really miss old saber system, it was much better in my eyes, albeit it's offtop here...

If push has a problem, that problem is that it's too simple an ability. You protect your team from Jedi/Sith, explosives and provide yourself and your teammates with effective crowd control, all with the push of a single button. No other single ability in the game provide such diverse amounts of utility.

So what? If we could simplify controls for gunners I would be totally ok with that.
Easiness isn't a problem, while lack of balance is.

You know, contrary to what some people spew, its never been perfectly balanced because a good chunk have always viewed it as too easy and favorable.
You can repeat the line of perfectly balanced over and over, it doesn't change the fact its just a soundbyte the overly fearful repeat to themselves as a mantra to prevent, yes I know, it's a vile word, - change. People do like their comfort.

Well if you really think that jedi/sith are overpowered, they should be nerfed, indeed. And I have no way to argue with that, except for "They are balanced". My word against yours.
In fact, they're even underpowered against clones with blobs, and I not gonna stop bitching about that.

If push isn't a big deal, if its so easy to counter, if you have no issues with it, why would you care so much what happens to it?

Actually push is a big deal, it's very important both for support and for assault, and any change made to the push could provoke dramatic consequences for saberists.

Please keep in mind they don't have a nades, pistols, rifles, rockets, multiple lifes, bear hands... all they have are sabers and the force.

Pulling a whole group would be fun.

... and then we will have "pull is ez, nerf it plz " thread for yet another 20 pages...

You can passively aggressively like posts all you want

omg omg omg passively aggressively like posts??? Are you serious? You really should change your attitude, if you can see some aggression in the god damn like.

These are the people who play jedi 24/7.

They don't care about the other classes, they completely ignore the fact 5 other classes exist.
This is a common trait among-st everyone who defends push because god forbid do people care about balance anymore.

So what? People have a right to play any class they want, why do you think you should be able enforce somebody to choose class to pick?

People stack teams, in numbers and skill wise and the offenders are always lightsticks.

Don't you think your bias goes out of control? Stacking still exists, true, but blaming only saber users for that? Really? REALLY?...

btw stacking these days much less than we had back in 2008.

I have been in several situations in the past week while in game observing the people that defend thier force power. Frankly the behavior and bias is disgusting. And there is nothing we can really do about that because they simply been here longer than us and people only care about registration dates apparently.

I wonder what those horrible things were... did they rape kittens? Drink blood of christian babies?

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Edit: Ignore me im mr meeseeks hello.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

it's not a right way to discuss, i'm surprised this thread is not locked yet
it's been going for over 20 pages, do you think devs will sacrifice their precious time going through all this just to get the input they need?

Thats why op has been keeping the 1st page updated so they don't have to go through 20 pages.

omg omg omg passively aggressively like posts??? Are you serious? You really should change your attitude, if you can see some aggression in the god damn like.

When you talk to people mentioned outside of the fourm regularly you can pick up on these things.
Call me crazy, I don't give a shit I know what im talking about and ive been called far worse things the past month.

Don't you think your bias goes out of control? Stacking still exists, true, but blaming only saber users for that? Really? REALLY?...

Those saber users I talked about are the ones who play regularly and know better.
They know exactly what there are doing, stop over dramatizing it. They are putting shitty behavior on display and im calling them out on it.

btw stacking these days much less than we had back in 2008.

When there are 5 people on rebels with a kd of 4. 5, 6. 3, and 2. The sith team's highest score is a kd of 2. And then the sith team is missing 5 people for 10 rounds and admins dont do anything about that because he cant be around to keep teams balanced 24/7.
No your wrong, back before the influx of players stacked teams were never this bad.

I wonder what those horrible things were... did they rape kittens? Drink blood of christian babies?

I am going to ignore that because its in bad taste you know that is over the line.

 

[Bombad General]

What about making the OPs drawing reflective of the point buy instead of a charge duration? Push 1 narrow knockdown, Push 2 wider knockdown, Push 3 like current Push 3. You can adjust the point cost to balance it. A Jedi with Push 3 do-it-all wouldn't have as many points elsewhere and Push 3 wouldn't be as prevalent. A true support Jedi would still choose Push 3.