Push 3 Balance

[SomeGuy]

Welcome to the topic. Please excuse the name, I didn't think too hard about it but this should probably be called

Force Push Re Balance​

Let me start of here by first saying I do not think Push is Overpowered and this is Not a Nerf Thread. But there is a problem I have with how it affects gameplay. The issue that I want addressed here is The Use of Push 3 as a player crutch and this is what I want to see removed.
Not sure what I mean by that? Let me explain then. I'm sure a lot of you have noticed that Push 3 is easy to use to knock down targets and get some nice ground kills. All the while it is also easy to stop by walking, crouching or standing still. But the real issue is that it is much easier to use Push and very forgiving in mistakes by the user.
What does this mean? Well, simply put, it means that a Pusher has to put forth less effort in an engagement as opposed to his target. And to add a little more to it, a Force User without Push level 3 has to put forth even more effort than his opponent if not the same. This is not good from a gameplay balance standpoint.
What happens from this, then? Well, most Force User class configs basically have Push 3 as a necessity rather than an option. Players become reliant on it and other great elements become unused.
But hasn't Push remained the same for many years? Yes it has, but I never noticed the problem until recently.
How did I see this issue? It actually happened to be the large influx of brand new players. Watching them progress in player ability map after map or even days. But the thing I noticed the most is that they all used Push 3.
What's wrong with them all using Push? Nothing, except for the fact that they try out other classes or force powers but fail and go back to Push 3.
Why would they go back to using Push 3 over and over? After seeing this and examining it, I saw it helped their player ability. Sure, they still weren't very good but they were substantially better than not using it.
So this is a New Player problem? No, not at all. The new players merely opened my eyes by seeing the sheer number of them doing it. I am certain everybody knows of one or a few players who exclusively play Jedi with Push 3.
How does Push help these players out so much? From what I concluded it is because Push is extremely simple and easy to use. It can even be used in a majority of situations. Not much effort has to be used to be averagely effective at the game now.

Now in my opinion this is not fair at all because all players should have to give the same amount of effort to be effective. Sure, all players are different and some are better than others or vice versa. But they all try about the same to be a positive contribution to the team. Just because someone is good or bad at playing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

So, from all this I try and figure out a way to complete this objective: Make Push Harder to Use for Bad Players but Still Retain it's Effectiveness for Good Players.

Here we go then, my idea is below. I am certainly also not saying my idea is the best one or the only option. The one directly below is an edit after reading things from this thread and mashing them together while also thinking of other gameplay elements and how they work. My very original idea, which was pointed out would actually be a nerf (which is not my plan) is at the very bottom.

Probably the most important part of the topic is that these are all suggestions, which means they are not guaranteed to be implemented and are also all subject to change. Everybody here should be striving to make the game a better experience. I implore everybody to share their suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. The key word is collaboration.

Another extremely important part of it is that we all discuss this in a constructive, mature, and polite manner. I don't want to see the thread devolve any more than it has because there are some very good ideas here. If you need an example, here are a couple.

This is how to not be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: Hah, (x) is fine you just need to do (z) better.
This is how to be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: I don't understand your issue with (x), you can just do (z), can you help me understand?​

So after thinking through after all the things people posted I came up with a new idea built upon some of it. Of course all not set in stone.

Push 3 changes to have a narrower knockdown area which is like a tube in front of the Jedi that is a bit around the crosshairs. Not as pinpoint as a blaster shot but they would still basically need to be aiming at them. But here's the twist, it only is like that for instant button pushes. To compensate the animation should be sped up by about a quarter of a second, reducing the time that the Jedi is vulnerable. But wait, there's more. The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this but this is just expanding on the idea so it may be too much. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.

This can even be applied to Pull to make it affect a group after a charge, which would give that power a bigger oompf it definitely needs!

There have been a number of ideas posted in the thread, which may need to be expanded on and complimented, such as:

• All levels of Push knockdown at different ranges and spreads
• Changes in Force Point cost
• Changes in Class Point cost
• Delay before pushing
• Charge up before use
• Differing types of knockback areas

Below is my first original post.

Now before you all start saying "l2walk" what this stems from is just the amount of Jedi/Sith who only use Push 3 as their main offensive weapon. In my opinion it is way too effective and versatile for how cheap it costs in both class points and FP. When looking at Pull, not only does it cost more, but it is harder to use due to the direct aim required and shorter range. I have seen plenty of players who don't use Push 3, but in comparison to the majority that do they need to play a lot smarter and harder. Push is just too easy.

My proposed fix is very simple although I don't know if the engine allows it. Have push be the way it is for range and AOE, especially projectiles, except for the knockdown which needs to be on the crosshair. Of course the closer the range the more lax this would be and anyone pushed outside of the knockdown sweet spot would still get pushed back, to help get those guys on a cliff. Pull could even be reworked the same way so a large group of people could be nudged closer rather than fall down.

This would increase the skill required to use it and help reduce the class spam for people looking to get easy kills but still maintain the support role it can fill.

Here is a representation of what I mean.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/DarkFett/push._zpsbkp88iqp.jpg

 

[andrew]

the proposed changes to push don't even solve anything imo

so push 3 has to be aimed moreso, but in exchange lower ranks of push can knockdown if aimed like pull. so now, minmaxing players like myself can just grab push 1 for 2 points, play the selfish playstyle, and now i can literally just get speed for free and still get knockdowns for 2 points.

oh no, now we have to rebalance the point cost for push! push 1 and 2 cost more, push 3 cost less. uh oh, we just screwed over every other build that jedi and sith have that don't use push 3, but still want to be able to play support with the stronger push arc! woops, we just nerfed hardcore support jedi, and the softer support jedi builds

turns out the simple solutions proposed aren't so simple :X

 

[Phelps]

Yeah, that's basically what I was talking about. SomeGuy thought about it as a nerf, when I see it a huge buff to some people I know, and their builds. Myself included. Not that I am a really good Jedi, I have my days. But it would all circle back to a same, kind of a different thread like this. I think none of us "naysayers" are scared of change (seeing Bombad's change would make lot of us even better with Push), it's just a simple opinion of thinking the ability balanced in the gameplay. We offer pretty factual reasons for that, if ability is able to Push 8 people and none of them can use walk button, then they (or some of them) deserve to die - you can't possibly think, that Jedi can manage to kill all 8 people in that wide arc. You can't justify nerfing Push, just because it is ABLE to Push 8 (and more) at once, because that shit happening is as rare as a unicorn in the real world. In 1v1 fights, the fight is easily readable and most of the times, skill of those players included in the fight counts. If the noob Jedi is lucky to get the Push kill? Oh well, more scary stuff happens in the game. And I have a strong suspicions, that most of the 1v1 fights are aimed, I think even noob Jedi aims at the gunner. So narrowing the arc solves nothing for 1v1 fight.

I kinda feel torn apart (LOL), I am trying to discuss this, but every time somebody from my "team" comes and posts his opinion, I just can't disagree. Bombad's idea could be great, if approached with care (because it could be huge buff instead), but on the other hand - I still don't see current Push as a broken thing.

 

[SomeGuy]

You know, a lot of the argument here is "If it ain't broke" but tons of things in game have changed regardless. Like I first thought of the ARC Dex change as a huge nerf until I adapted my gameplay style and now I absolutely love it over the old way. Hell, I liked contact explosive grenade primaries but that still got changed.

The problem I have with Push is that it's just too easy an ability for anyone to use. It is the absolute easiest thing in game to use offensively. It's even easier than actually sabering the guy who fell down. I would bet money that Push gets used more each day than any other force power including jump, or even blobs, or sniper shots. Now sure, yes, it is easy to walk also but the walk is just a delay on the inevitable that the Jith/Sedi will get into close range with you where it's either fight or die. Even saberists fighting each other once they see someone focusing up and running they just Push and push.

How about you go play an FA map with multiple Jedi. It turns into a bunch of people being the basic grunts while they wait for the Jedi to open up. And if it's a map with a lot like Jedi Temple or Geo Arena then most of them are vying for those Push 3 Jedi when there are loads of other classes with unique play styles and skills. Why does everyone want to be Shaak Ti and Serra Keto? For the easy crutch of Push. My personal favorite is the Jedi with a cloaking device and Mind Trick 3, very fun play style.

Change isn't always a bad thing though. It's like people are afraid their favorite toy is going to be taken away. Why is it such a bad thing to get people to branch out more, expand their horizons in game? I mean look at the hostility this thread brought up. Just a mention of an idea for change and people are instantly on the defensive. Shouldn't that be some indication there is an issue? Part of the defense being it would ruin Jedi/Sith completely, but for one power to be so essential and core to a class with such variance is ridiculous.

And @Phelps Bombad's change said the points for Push would change

The issue is not that it would ruin Jedi/Sith, because it wouldn't. It would merely make people change their play style.

Also @Puppytine if you see what posts I actually Liked they were the ones who acknowledged what I was trying to say. Not a nerf idea. Also I guess I should update my OP again so you can stop picking and choosing what you want to argue with instead of the topic as a whole. Sure, people posted ideas for how to nerf it but that's where the collaboration comes in to see how to make it actually work.

And @Phelps Bombad's idea does say the points would need to be reworked so those builds you talk about would not be viable.

 

[Phelps]

And @Phelps Bombad's idea does say the points would need to be reworked so those builds you talk about would not be viable.

I know this. I just hope it wouldn't be a hell lot of a work for nothing. Jedi/Sith is a complex class. You also need to take into account Repulse ability, Super Push ability. Grip with Push 3 "fly you fool" ability. Lightning with Push 3 "lie still, when I fry you" ability.

 

[SomeGuy]

I know this. I just hope it wouldn't be a hell lot of a work for nothing. Jedi/Sith is a complex class. You also need to take into account Repulse ability, Super Push ability. Grip with Push 3 "fly you fool" ability. Lightning with Push 3 "lie still, when I fry you" ability.

Kinda why I wanted to think of something that wouldn't touch force points or class points.

 

[Revanic]

Then the best bet would be to modify the knockdowns rather than push.

 

[SomeGuy]

If you think about it knockdowns are a huge part of the gameplay and anything affecting them would affect the game as a whole. Every class has a way to knock down. I did have some ideas on that though. The easy part was explosives, then melee, but stuff like push or pull was more difficult to figure out. What I thought of was like tiered areas around centers of explosions that determine what happens to you. At center or very near is death zone, probably should be sent flying and maybe set on fire. Right outside of that is critically injured zone where you get knocked down and sent back a bit. Slow getup could work here too. Next minor injury zone where instead of knockdown you still get hurt but get staggered, think of like base game staggers just maybe slow animation. After that would be stun zone where character covers face with one arm like in that bit where you go through a snow storm. For melee instead of relying on knockdowns for kills, have it stagger opponents when you kick or uppercut. Maybe moves like the leg sweep should still knockdown. But what always made me wonder was in melee mode you have an ammo bar, why not make it like melee stamina so if that's low you fall down easier. Also people crouching for kicks or slaps actually get whacked in the face, like how it looks, so they could be staggered a bit like recoiling from the blow. But force powers? The only thing I can think of would be modifying the range, be it either proximity or width, where inside the zone is fall over outside is stagger stun. How would you modify the power to still be relevant when all other knockdowns are changed? It couldn't be how it is currently because then it would be practically the only source of reliable knockdowns. It's a pickle.Personally, right now (as in this game build), I feel Push needs a mechanic change to decentralize it as the main aspect or Jedi but if we go the other route, it's a much bigger and more difficult question to answer.

 

[Puppytine]

You used a rape joke and you tell me im deflecting for refusing to humor your shitty joke.
Yeah no, you are dismissed. There is nothing of value to discuss with you if this is what you are going to bring to the table.
Unless you grow up and mature there is no reason for any of us to take you seriously.

I don't care if this is the internet, you behave at the big boy table or you get out.
If chaos, the snark of snarkies can behave there is no reason you can't.

lolwut? Would it be legit if I wrote "triggered" here?
I asked you absolutely serious, but also kinda rhetorical question, which I may notice left unanswered, and attached a joke to it. And then yes, you deflecting from question using completely absurd reasoning that my joke didn't fit your high standards of the humour.
Who the heaven are you, a British Queen or something?

In your recent posts you constantly make it personal: you're referring to some people who met on mb2 servers and your relations to them, blaming saber users for evil that happens in the world, discussing me instead of discussing ideas of mine, and as the result, provoke me to answer you in the same faulty way.
And after all that you dare to call *my* behavior not polite enough?! I can't stop laughing, seriously.

To tell the truth, I don't even know what is that mystical thing, "a mature post". I know what is informative post and what is not informative post, I know what is post with arguments and is post without any of them, but "mature"? What is this, some kind of voodoo?

I've got my last reply full of arguments and statements about our topic, push 3. And you successfully ignored them all, completely focused on something that isn't even on topic in this section, telling people that I shouldn't be taken seriously... waaaaaaaaaat? No, really?

So please, for the love of God, stop make it personal.

You know, a lot of the argument here is "If it ain't broke" but tons of things in game have changed regardless. Like I first thought of the ARC Dex change as a huge nerf until I adapted my gameplay style and now I absolutely love it over the old way. Hell, I liked contact explosive grenade primaries but that still got changed.

Yes, tons of things changes, and some of them even changes for good, like that dotf balcony.
But you can't change things just for fun, each change should have a logic behind. You can't do it only because you can.

The problem I have with Push is that it's just too easy an ability for anyone to use. It is the absolute easiest thing in game to use offensively. It's even easier than actually sabering the guy who fell down.

Maybe you need just stop focusing on that? It's kinda obsession. Who even gives a damn if it's balanced?

I would bet money that Push gets used more each day than any other force power including jump, or even blobs, or sniper shots.

I would bet money that useful abilities gets used more each day than useless one.

I would bet money number of shots fired each day is more than number of pushes made. Maybe we should think about a push in the same manner as about a rifle? You know, some non-lethal gun, one of those cops use these days.

Now sure, yes, it is easy to walk also but the walk is just a delay on the inevitable that the Jith/Sedi will get into close range with you where it's either fight or die.

How could it be an argument against push? I just can say "Now sure, yes, it is easy to block shots with the saber but the block is just a delay on the inevitable that you run out of fp and die".
So what does that means?

How about you go play an FA map with multiple Jedi. It turns into a bunch of people being the basic grunts while they wait for the Jedi to open up. And if it's a map with a lot like Jedi Temple or Geo Arena then most of them are vying for those Push 3 Jedi when there are loads of other classes with unique play styles and skills. Why does everyone want to be Shaak Ti and Serra Keto? For the easy crutch of Push. My personal favorite is the Jedi with a cloaking device and Mind Trick 3, very fun play style.

I don't play FA currently, I'm talking only about open. If some changes would happen only in FA, I wouldn't care.

It's like people are afraid their favorite toy is going to be taken away.

Indeed we are afraid, this is our freaking favorite toy! And effective way to balance saberists against gunners, so why it should be taken away?

Why is it such a bad thing to get people to branch out more, expand their horizons in game?

lollololololol
rofl
It's clearly corporative language, and when I hear such things, I always ready to some disaster to happen, I'm ready to be screwed.
Like firing the whole developer team of original software, throwing all they produced to the garbage and hiring new people to make some lame software on third party engine using good old brand which everybody used to love, for example.

Also @Puppytine if you see what posts I actually Liked they were the ones who acknowledged what I was trying to say.

I didn't actually check what post you liked, I just picked your nick as example.
I was explaining that if people is divided in two teams debating about something, it's predictable they gonna like only those post which made people from their team.

Also I guess I should update my OP again so you can stop picking and choosing what you want to argue with instead of the topic as a whole. Sure, people posted ideas for how to nerf it but that's where the collaboration comes in to see how to make it actually work.

I've already detailed commented OP, and shown that all your ideas add up to on thing: nerfing.
You know, if you suggest to nerf something and then put in the description "this is not a nerf thread" it would be *still* a nerf thread.

It wouldn't be a nerfing only if you offer something in exchange; keeping in mind value of push, it should be some meaningful buffing, involving effectiveness and/or cost of other force powers, bp and/or fp draining conditions etc. But I can see nothing like that from you... maybe with exception of mass pull.

If you don't wanna picking from me, stop referring your other posts, stop referring "some other people", just stop referring and put your suggestions (not nerfing, remember!) on the table in some small and specific form.
But until then, I'll just say: push is fine. Amen.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

So please, for the love of God, stop make it personal.

You want to nerf push, you want to remove snipers... Anything else you want to remove?
It would pure deterioration of Movie Battles.

Yeah, there is nothing of value to discuss with you if you start contradicting yourself.

You tell me to not take it personally but you attack another person in a another thread for whats being discussed here. Then you say

And I don't wanna make it personal.

But you are willing to go the extra mile of starting drama in a completely different thread.

Stop pretending you have a moral high-ground when you are just as bad as the other people who defended against the discussions here.

Maybe you need just stop focusing on that? It's kinda obsession. Who even gives a damn if it's balanced?

Who even gives a damn if it's balanced?

Contradiction again, or you resorted to trolling.
Either way, shitty argument. Dismissed because it's an ad hominem which was an implication hes obsessed.

I noticed your counter argument started to turn into what we heard a thousands times already of "learn to walk." Nope thats not a counter point either and will be dismissed. One person should not be able to dictate and control what an entire room of people can or cant do. I don't care who they are. Everyone should not have to drop what their doing and focus fire one person.

"Here is a shitty light switch, its been broken for years. Why should we fix it now?" Is also going to be ignored as well. We are fully aware how broken push has been for years and are well aware of that which is why this thread exists.

What is being discussed right now is the knock down itself and I have nothing to add to that which is why I re-framed to do so.

I thought you had some sense of responsibility and maturity in you. Because I always see you helping people in the support threads, but I guess I was completely wrong and you are just afraid of loosing your toys like the rest of them.

I don't need to answer or respond to anything you said because you took the discussion into a dark place when everyone else was trying to have an actual discussion and not talk about rape jokes. If you wanted me to take you seriously, you could of left out the rape joke. But no.

So I will say it agian, grow up.
If you continue to drag whats being discussed here into other threads and blatantly attack people and cause more drama I will have to report you.

 

[SomeGuy]

Snip

I think you've come under the false assumption that I think Push is the only power that needs a change. I named this Push thread, not Force Powers thread. There are a great many things I think can be improved upon and obviously a single thread for all of them would be a bit of a stretch so I started off with one of the biggest problems I see. The other powers should have their own topics.

Push shouldn't be your only useful power. The fact is the other powers are a bit more situational and harder to use, if not underpowered, while Push can work almost anytime anywhere. So, yes, my idea is of some kind of nerf but that is why you start a discussion so people can provide input on how something would work out, or not. Extra eyes and brains can add to the problem and solve it in a way one person could not.

When a gunner sees a Jedi the first thought should not be, "I better walk or else he will push me." It isn't just the instantaneous button press effect that Push causes, but the mental and gameplay aspect as well. And for all this gain, all this positive, it requires the most minute amount of effort.

But we all have our biases which is why it's good to have input from every angle. Just saying "No" like a poisoned Windu doesn't help anything. Oh and it's a big duh blaster shots are fired more than Push, they're full auto.. you have to be reasonable.

Anyway, the way I see it is if all other force powers remain around the same Push 3 needs some kind of change to make it less easy mode. But, the best option would be to rebalance all powers and point costs using Bombad General's idea.

 

[andrew]

When a gunner sees a Jedi the first thought should not be, "I better walk or else he will push me." It isn't just the instantaneous button press effect that Push causes, but the mental and gameplay aspect as well. And for all this gain, all this positive, it requires the most minute amount of effort.

yes they should

 

[SomeGuy]

yes they should

So every gunner should just immediately assume every single Jedi has Push? The way I see it it should be more of a fear of not knowing what powers they actually have and the unpreparedness on how to deal with them.

 

[andrew]

every gunner should assume that if they run around they'll get knocked down by a jedi, yes absolutely

a melee class needs the ability to force gunners, who move full speed when attacking, to slow down so they can get into range

 

[SomeGuy]

While that is entirely true and valid, they should not still inherently have the advantage in the fight. Having a distinct advantage because of the possibility of using Push is not equal in terms of gameplay. If it were a bit less easy to use then the risk of getting knocked over would be lessened, making an equal fight.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Push shouldn't be your only useful power. The fact is the other powers are a bit more situational and harder to use, if not underpowered, while Push can work almost anytime anywhere.

Push isn't your only useful power though. The other powers may be more somewhat more situational and/or harder to use, but so what? The point of having multiple powers to choose from is so that some suit certain situations better than others. The thing that separates push is it's necessary for pushing grenades anyway, so might as well spend some extra points and upgrade it to knockdown. However, I'd much rather fight any jedi with push 3 than pull 3. If you do make the mistake of running when a jedi can push you, push knocks you away a bit, giving you a chance (if you're walking then he just helped you get away from him). If you make the same mistake with pull, you're nearly guaranteed dead (and if you're walking, you're now probably within his swing range anyway).

I could write more on why all the other powers can be very useful if you'd like, I think you're vastly underestimating how good they can be. If your issue is just that push is easy to use relative to other powers, I have to ask why is that an issue? Holding walk is also relatively easy to do.

When a gunner sees a Jedi the first thought should not be, "I better walk or else he will push me." It isn't just the instantaneous button press effect that Push causes, but the mental and gameplay aspect as well. And for all this gain, all this positive, it requires the most minute amount of effort.

Why shouldn't this be their first thought? If the jedi doesn't have push 3, he will very likely have pull 3, in which case you should walk anyway.

While that is entirely true and valid, they should not still inherently have the advantage in the fight. Having a distinct advantage because of the possibility of using Push is not equal in terms of gameplay. If it were a bit less easy to use then the risk of getting knocked over would be lessened, making an equal fight.

How is the possibility of using push a distinct advantage/not equal? The gunner also has the distinct advantage of being able to hold walk to completely avoid knockdown. If it were a bit less easy to use and there was less risk of being knocked down, then a gunner who walks a lot could just never get knocked down making it an unequal fight.

 

[SomeGuy]

Push isn't your only useful power though. The other powers may be more somewhat more situational and/or harder to use, but so what? The point of having multiple powers to choose from is so that some suit certain situations better than others. The thing that separates push is it's necessary for pushing grenades anyway, so might as well spend some extra points and upgrade it to knockdown. However, I'd much rather fight any jedi with push 3 than pull 3. If you do make the mistake of running when a jedi can push you, push knocks you away a bit, giving you a chance (if you're walking then he just helped you get away from him). If you make the same mistake with pull, you're nearly guaranteed dead (and if you're walking, you're now probably within his swing range anyway).

I could write more on why all the other powers can be very useful if you'd like, I think you're vastly underestimating how good they can be. If your issue is just that push is easy to use relative to other powers, I have to ask why is that an issue? Holding walk is also relatively easy to do.


Why shouldn't this be their first thought? If the jedi doesn't have push 3, he will very likely have pull 3, in which case you should walk anyway.


How is the possibility of using push a distinct advantage/not equal? The gunner also has the distinct advantage of being able to hold walk to completely avoid knockdown. If it were a bit less easy to use and there was less risk of being knocked down, then a gunner who walks a lot could just never get knocked down making it an unequal fight.

Well according to some of the arguments here changing Push to only affect knockdown area would completely ruin Jedi/Sith. I don't see the problem with Pull though because it has to be precisely aimed, costs more points, and uses more force points. If he gets you down with that he deserves the kill.

I don't think you understand the advantage of having your opponent at limited mobility. A gunner runs, he gets pushed. A gunner only walks, he gets ran up to and sabered. The Jedi have high mobility, instant knockdown abilities, even disarming abilities, wallhacks, near perfect defense from the front, and a 1 hit kill weapon. That doesn't even mention the light or dark side powers. Their downside? They need to be close to use it. Learning how to penetrate the defense of a Jedi is much more difficult than learning how to Push a guy down. And if you don't get to Push him down, he's afraid you might and would rather take his chances with the 1 hit kill sword where he may get 1 or 2 shots in that do minimal damage unless it's a lucky headshot. What does the gunner have? Limited mobility, which is slowed down even more by need of walking, limited ammo, limited other gadgets that are usually a 1 time shot, and a weapon that takes many hits to kill and needs to reloaded often. Their upside? Range. Which is defeated by the Jedi's defense. Jedi comes out up and gunner down.

You can either waste ammo down range doing nothing or let the Jedi get up close where he calls the shots for a chance to even open up. If the threat of Push wasn't so universal because maybe the Jedi would have to try, too, then it would be equal.

 

[andrew]

I don't think you understand the advantage of having your opponent at limited mobility. A gunner runs, he gets pushed. A gunner only walks, he gets ran up to and sabered

no, most people are very aware of the tradeoffs associated with gunner vs jedi gameplay, and mastering that is the cornerstone of being a good gunner

your argument is that push is too easy, dont muddle it up with this type of stuff.

 

[SomeGuy]

no, most people are very aware of the tradeoffs associated with gunner vs jedi gameplay, and mastering that is the cornerstone of being a good gunner

your argument is that push is too easy, dont muddle it up with this type of stuff.

Your argument is walk is too easy, don't muddle it up with this type of stuff.

It's a contributing factor to it. Push is much too easy for both it's direct and indirect effects.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Well according to some of the arguments here changing Push to only affect knockdown area would completely ruin Jedi/Sith. I don't see the problem with Pull though because it has to be precisely aimed, costs more points, and uses more force points. If he gets you down with that he deserves the kill.

Pull only costs 2 more points than push, and it doesn't use any more force points. Push and pull 3 both use 20FP.

I don't think you understand the advantage of having your opponent at limited mobility. A gunner runs, he gets pushed. A gunner only walks, he gets ran up to and sabered.

I understand it quite well. That is a huge oversimplification. A good gunner should be walking and running. It's not like you can never run. If the jedi was constantly spamming push so the gunner would fall as soon as he stopped walking, then the jedi would be dead because he would get shot during the vulnerability period after a push or have no FP. A huge part of saber vs gun is trying to bait the other side. The gunner tries to bait the jedi into pushing so he can shoot the jedi while he's open, and the jedi tries to bait the gunner into running so he can knock him down. You can just briefly let go of walk and then walk again before the jedi can react. If he takes the bait then you get free shots at him, are further away, and are free to run more during the push cooldown. You're also free to run whenever he swings.

You can either waste ammo down range doing nothing or let the Jedi get up close where he calls the shots for a chance to even open up. If the threat of Push wasn't so universal because maybe the Jedi would have to try, too, then it would be equal.

Not sure what you mean by that, the threat of push isn't "universal" because of walking, and the jedi already does have to try too.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Just going in circles with the same people.

Is push hard? Yes or no?
No.

Is push too easy?
Yes.

Does walking counter push?
Partially. Ding!
It's sad that even when a power fails it can still be effective.

Push is easy mode and they like their ez mode.
The risk/reward of push is skewed. The risk is minimal, the reward high.


Nothing else to argue. You're only hope is to find someone, who can change or do something; listens to what you've pointed out.
Convincing anyone of anything on these forums, or just on the internet in general - eventually becomes a waste of time.