Push 3 Balance

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by SomeGuy, Jan 17, 2016.

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  1. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy Donator

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    Welcome to the topic. Please excuse the name, I didn't think too hard about it but this should probably be called

    Force Push Re Balance

    Let me start of here by first saying I do not think Push is Overpowered and this is Not a Nerf Thread. But there is a problem I have with how it affects gameplay. The issue that I want addressed here is The Use of Push 3 as a player crutch and this is what I want to see removed.
    Not sure what I mean by that? Let me explain then. I'm sure a lot of you have noticed that Push 3 is easy to use to knock down targets and get some nice ground kills. All the while it is also easy to stop by walking, crouching or standing still. But the real issue is that it is much easier to use Push and very forgiving in mistakes by the user.
    What does this mean? Well, simply put, it means that a Pusher has to put forth less effort in an engagement as opposed to his target. And to add a little more to it, a Force User without Push level 3 has to put forth even more effort than his opponent if not the same. This is not good from a gameplay balance standpoint.
    What happens from this, then? Well, most Force User class configs basically have Push 3 as a necessity rather than an option. Players become reliant on it and other great elements become unused.
    But hasn't Push remained the same for many years? Yes it has, but I never noticed the problem until recently.
    How did I see this issue? It actually happened to be the large influx of brand new players. Watching them progress in player ability map after map or even days. But the thing I noticed the most is that they all used Push 3.
    What's wrong with them all using Push? Nothing, except for the fact that they try out other classes or force powers but fail and go back to Push 3.
    Why would they go back to using Push 3 over and over? After seeing this and examining it, I saw it helped their player ability. Sure, they still weren't very good but they were substantially better than not using it.
    So this is a New Player problem? No, not at all. The new players merely opened my eyes by seeing the sheer number of them doing it. I am certain everybody knows of one or a few players who exclusively play Jedi with Push 3.
    How does Push help these players out so much? From what I concluded it is because Push is extremely simple and easy to use. It can even be used in a majority of situations. Not much effort has to be used to be averagely effective at the game now.

    Now in my opinion this is not fair at all because all players should have to give the same amount of effort to be effective. Sure, all players are different and some are better than others or vice versa. But they all try about the same to be a positive contribution to the team. Just because someone is good or bad at playing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

    So, from all this I try and figure out a way to complete this objective: Make Push Harder to Use for Bad Players but Still Retain it's Effectiveness for Good Players.

    Here we go then, my idea is below. I am certainly also not saying my idea is the best one or the only option. The one directly below is an edit after reading things from this thread and mashing them together while also thinking of other gameplay elements and how they work. My very original idea, which was pointed out would actually be a nerf (which is not my plan) is at the very bottom.

    Probably the most important part of the topic is that these are all suggestions, which means they are not guaranteed to be implemented and are also all subject to change. Everybody here should be striving to make the game a better experience. I implore everybody to share their suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. The key word is collaboration.

    Another extremely important part of it is that we all discuss this in a constructive, mature, and polite manner. I don't want to see the thread devolve any more than it has because there are some very good ideas here. If you need an example, here are a couple.
    This is how to not be constructive.
    Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
    Person 2: Hah, (x) is fine you just need to do (z) better.
    This is how to be constructive.
    Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
    Person 2: I don't understand your issue with (x), you can just do (z), can you help me understand?​

    So after thinking through after all the things people posted I came up with a new idea built upon some of it. Of course all not set in stone.

    Push 3 changes to have a narrower knockdown area which is like a tube in front of the Jedi that is a bit around the crosshairs. Not as pinpoint as a blaster shot but they would still basically need to be aiming at them. But here's the twist, it only is like that for instant button pushes. To compensate the animation should be sped up by about a quarter of a second, reducing the time that the Jedi is vulnerable. But wait, there's more. The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this but this is just expanding on the idea so it may be too much. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    This can even be applied to Pull to make it affect a group after a charge, which would give that power a bigger oompf it definitely needs!

    There have been a number of ideas posted in the thread, which may need to be expanded on and complimented, such as:
    • All levels of Push knockdown at different ranges and spreads
    • Changes in Force Point cost
    • Changes in Class Point cost
    • Delay before pushing
    • Charge up before use
    • Differing types of knockback areas

    Below is my first original post.

    Now before you all start saying "l2walk" what this stems from is just the amount of Jedi/Sith who only use Push 3 as their main offensive weapon. In my opinion it is way too effective and versatile for how cheap it costs in both class points and FP. When looking at Pull, not only does it cost more, but it is harder to use due to the direct aim required and shorter range. I have seen plenty of players who don't use Push 3, but in comparison to the majority that do they need to play a lot smarter and harder. Push is just too easy.

    My proposed fix is very simple although I don't know if the engine allows it. Have push be the way it is for range and AOE, especially projectiles, except for the knockdown which needs to be on the crosshair. Of course the closer the range the more lax this would be and anyone pushed outside of the knockdown sweet spot would still get pushed back, to help get those guys on a cliff. Pull could even be reworked the same way so a large group of people could be nudged closer rather than fall down.

    This would increase the skill required to use it and help reduce the class spam for people looking to get easy kills but still maintain the support role it can fill.

    Here is a representation of what I mean.
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/DarkFett/push._zpsbkp88iqp.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2016
  2. Revanic

    Revanic

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    I had a similar idea involving force focusing a gunner, but neglected suggesting it due to the possibility of screwing up super moves... So, I wouldn't really mind this, A way to make Push and Pull to feel powerful, but not force gunners to just die. Problem would then be pushing Jedi/Sith, since then you would have to aim directly at them as well.
     
  3. Supa

    Supa The Serial Stacker Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Interesting proposal. Pull currently works this way, but with push it would provide a more interesting dynamic to the game than "I pushed a button and everyone around me fell down". It would also make the domino effect a more valuable mechanic, get more out of your money, so to speak.
     
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  4. Revanic

    Revanic

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    Oh yeah... domino. Could it be conditioned so allow, say, someone to be knocked down, even though the guy who was pushed into him did not? Would depend on velocity, of course.
     
  5. Supa

    Supa The Serial Stacker Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Perhaps, but it might cause some very interesting physics bugs. It doesn't really sound that worth it to me, though. That's VERY conditional.
     
  6. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic Nerd

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    -And a thousand push whores screamed.
     
    verq, Onysfx, Terricule and 4 others like this.
  7. Preston

    Preston

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    Yay more nerfs to Jedi..
     
  8. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy Donator

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    Exactly my thoughts Supa. Chain knockdowns would be thought out instead of random. To elaborate a little more I think of my idea as like a cone from the Jedi where closer to the Jedi the easier it is to aim a Push/Pull, farther away requires good aim. But again this whole idea is to make Push less of a catch all and vary Jedi builds and possibly lessen the spam.
     
  9. Supa

    Supa The Serial Stacker Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Jedi has gotten some pretty substantial buffs without anything really taken away or decreased to compensate for the buffs. Balance in all things, friend.
     
  10. Preston

    Preston

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    that pull nerf tho
     
  11. Supa

    Supa The Serial Stacker Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Pull was bullshit and you know it. :p
     
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  12. BigBossBigTeef

    BigBossBigTeef Nerd

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  13. Revanic

    Revanic

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    Pull having a cone, but only knockdown and/or gun pull on direct LOS would be nice. Esp. if Push gets the LOS treatment too. It'd be a consistency trade-off.

    Heck, even if being closer to the sides of the cone made the pull effect weaker, that'd be fine. Or whatever.
     
  14. Preston

    Preston

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    So is the perk system and we all know it... :(
     
  15. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic Nerd

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    I always thought push or pull should be like in bf:)

    It only works from a distance. In your face force pushing/pulling wouldn't work. You have to be at least X distance away etc.
    It's a focused ranged power. You should be swinging that saber:)

    Plus it would allow me to rape with impunity as I can dodge swings when I want to. Matrix style.
     
  16. Supa

    Supa The Serial Stacker Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    I wish push had a minimum range...
     
  17. Terricule

    Terricule

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    Anything that tones down push, even a little, has my full support. Having to actually aim it would be a good start.
     
  18. AgentGibbs

    AgentGibbs

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    I have to say it but 'l2walk' I disagree with a push nerf because beating a jedi/sith needs to be about spacing and your aim ability to lower their fp. You complain saying push is too easy to use, but if youre walking and get pushed you should be able to kill/seriously injure the jedi/sith in that one push and if it didnt kill them it lowered their fp so that a couple more well placed shots will kill them. Push while still effective in 1v1 has always to me had more of the support mindset keeping enemies away from your allies and offering other gunners up to die to your own team gunners. On top of this you mention its longer range if you get pushed over at push's max range and roll away you can easily get up before the jedi/sith can reach you which is why I believe its range is fine becuase i use this tactic to kill jedi/sith occasionally as they often use a swing to try to make up the distance and are easily shot. However this all comes back to the idea of if youre a gunner you should be walking when enemy jedi/sith are around, and above all this is a team based game so your team's jedi/sith should be helping you keep your distance from the enemy jedi/sith.
     
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  19. Vitéz

    Vitéz

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    If the #1 Jedi/Sith abiilty is nerfed, basically every single other anti-Jedi skill must be nerfed too. The proposed change makes sense, but IMO is isnt worth it. And there's the other side that Push can be countered via walking. Gameplay-wise its fair, because its an easy skill to use, but also easy to counter. Pull is harder to use, but the reward is also greater (enemy is closer and gunner lose weapon). If you make Push harder to use, what will be the extra reward for using it?
    Anyway, its ridiculous that some players are still complaining about "push whores"... is it their fault that they're using their abilities, while you dont use yours? Seriously, grow up ppl and learn to use gunner classes properly already. Or you know, LEGO Star Wars is always a possibility for you.
     
  20. Mr_Oujamaflip

    Mr_Oujamaflip

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    Is it really that easy to counter? If it was it wouldn't be the number 1 Jedi/Sith power.

    Considering it has instant effect, quite a high range, affects multiple targets, is versatile, can be used while strafing/jumping/whatever are you sure it can be that easily countered?
     
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