Push 3 Balance

[SomeGuy]

Welcome to the topic. Please excuse the name, I didn't think too hard about it but this should probably be called

Force Push Re Balance​

Let me start of here by first saying I do not think Push is Overpowered and this is Not a Nerf Thread. But there is a problem I have with how it affects gameplay. The issue that I want addressed here is The Use of Push 3 as a player crutch and this is what I want to see removed.
Not sure what I mean by that? Let me explain then. I'm sure a lot of you have noticed that Push 3 is easy to use to knock down targets and get some nice ground kills. All the while it is also easy to stop by walking, crouching or standing still. But the real issue is that it is much easier to use Push and very forgiving in mistakes by the user.
What does this mean? Well, simply put, it means that a Pusher has to put forth less effort in an engagement as opposed to his target. And to add a little more to it, a Force User without Push level 3 has to put forth even more effort than his opponent if not the same. This is not good from a gameplay balance standpoint.
What happens from this, then? Well, most Force User class configs basically have Push 3 as a necessity rather than an option. Players become reliant on it and other great elements become unused.
But hasn't Push remained the same for many years? Yes it has, but I never noticed the problem until recently.
How did I see this issue? It actually happened to be the large influx of brand new players. Watching them progress in player ability map after map or even days. But the thing I noticed the most is that they all used Push 3.
What's wrong with them all using Push? Nothing, except for the fact that they try out other classes or force powers but fail and go back to Push 3.
Why would they go back to using Push 3 over and over? After seeing this and examining it, I saw it helped their player ability. Sure, they still weren't very good but they were substantially better than not using it.
So this is a New Player problem? No, not at all. The new players merely opened my eyes by seeing the sheer number of them doing it. I am certain everybody knows of one or a few players who exclusively play Jedi with Push 3.
How does Push help these players out so much? From what I concluded it is because Push is extremely simple and easy to use. It can even be used in a majority of situations. Not much effort has to be used to be averagely effective at the game now.

Now in my opinion this is not fair at all because all players should have to give the same amount of effort to be effective. Sure, all players are different and some are better than others or vice versa. But they all try about the same to be a positive contribution to the team. Just because someone is good or bad at playing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

So, from all this I try and figure out a way to complete this objective: Make Push Harder to Use for Bad Players but Still Retain it's Effectiveness for Good Players.

Here we go then, my idea is below. I am certainly also not saying my idea is the best one or the only option. The one directly below is an edit after reading things from this thread and mashing them together while also thinking of other gameplay elements and how they work. My very original idea, which was pointed out would actually be a nerf (which is not my plan) is at the very bottom.

Probably the most important part of the topic is that these are all suggestions, which means they are not guaranteed to be implemented and are also all subject to change. Everybody here should be striving to make the game a better experience. I implore everybody to share their suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. The key word is collaboration.

Another extremely important part of it is that we all discuss this in a constructive, mature, and polite manner. I don't want to see the thread devolve any more than it has because there are some very good ideas here. If you need an example, here are a couple.

This is how to not be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: Hah, (x) is fine you just need to do (z) better.
This is how to be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: I don't understand your issue with (x), you can just do (z), can you help me understand?​

So after thinking through after all the things people posted I came up with a new idea built upon some of it. Of course all not set in stone.

Push 3 changes to have a narrower knockdown area which is like a tube in front of the Jedi that is a bit around the crosshairs. Not as pinpoint as a blaster shot but they would still basically need to be aiming at them. But here's the twist, it only is like that for instant button pushes. To compensate the animation should be sped up by about a quarter of a second, reducing the time that the Jedi is vulnerable. But wait, there's more. The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this but this is just expanding on the idea so it may be too much. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.

This can even be applied to Pull to make it affect a group after a charge, which would give that power a bigger oompf it definitely needs!

There have been a number of ideas posted in the thread, which may need to be expanded on and complimented, such as:

• All levels of Push knockdown at different ranges and spreads
• Changes in Force Point cost
• Changes in Class Point cost
• Delay before pushing
• Charge up before use
• Differing types of knockback areas

Below is my first original post.

Now before you all start saying "l2walk" what this stems from is just the amount of Jedi/Sith who only use Push 3 as their main offensive weapon. In my opinion it is way too effective and versatile for how cheap it costs in both class points and FP. When looking at Pull, not only does it cost more, but it is harder to use due to the direct aim required and shorter range. I have seen plenty of players who don't use Push 3, but in comparison to the majority that do they need to play a lot smarter and harder. Push is just too easy.

My proposed fix is very simple although I don't know if the engine allows it. Have push be the way it is for range and AOE, especially projectiles, except for the knockdown which needs to be on the crosshair. Of course the closer the range the more lax this would be and anyone pushed outside of the knockdown sweet spot would still get pushed back, to help get those guys on a cliff. Pull could even be reworked the same way so a large group of people could be nudged closer rather than fall down.

This would increase the skill required to use it and help reduce the class spam for people looking to get easy kills but still maintain the support role it can fill.

Here is a representation of what I mean.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/DarkFett/push._zpsbkp88iqp.jpg

 

[TwiceDead]

Dude, do you even play open mode???? Because I'm doubting it right now
This game is team based, most what was described in this thread is not a balance issue, but an I'm outnumbered and salty i got wrecked on the server issue.
You can't argue about 1v1 this game has NEVER been about that.
I agree this post should have died ages ago, its become a war between people who hate Jedi and people who hate Gunners who can't hold shift. And both sides sound like dumbasses
Lock this thread.

Constructive.
Direct.
To the point.

... I love it.

 

[Puppytine]

I said before that I think other powers need changes, I just detailed them a bit more, it wasn't some spur of the moment thing.

99% of time you and other people were talking only about nerfing push, not giving something in return. And latest posts also keep that way.

I said it should be based on average players just as you did. My problem is that newbie Jedi that learn the basics of blocking and pushing are just as effective as an average skill gunner.

One more time: are you kidding me? No way noob jedi with push will beat average gunner, except for some random. The only kind of disbalance is that noob jedi always defeats noob gunner, but that's all.

And I'm the one being dramatic? "If you change push it will ruin all of jedi and sith" .... Please.

Yes, you. Read again your own sentence that I was answering for.

Rockets, grenades, and flamethrower don't need to be aimed? Hah! I didn't know they just auto targeted the closest enemy rather than going off your crosshair... Oh wait, they DO aim from there.

They need to be aimed in same way push does. And all that affects multiple targets, don't you think jedi deserve something that affects multiple targets?

I compared Push to a sniper because it is the complete opposite in terms of skill.

And I compared push to a sniper because it is the opposite in terms of effectiveness and deadliness.

I don't want saberists to be useless, I don't want them gone, I just want them to be the same level of difficulty to play as every other class.

Then you should put overall balance first. These days jedi/sith are balanced or nearly underpowered against gunners, and nerfing their most important force power will lead to serious balance issues.

So here's another idea I had since nobody wants to give up the easy mode button.. Make all force powers, not just dark side, affect teammates. That would promote more team work and coordination. This would include Mind Trick so other team members would be more careful to avoid killing them. Only problem I could think of is griefing possibility so maybe the Punish or Forgive prompt should apply for assists also.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Now your propositions aren't just imbalanced, they've crossed the line to the point where it gets ridiculous, I'm afraid to say.
This would completely wipe support role of saberists, since they wouldn't be able to push grenades anymore, also this is just a *huge* base for a trolling.
If it would be implemented, gameplay would become a non-stoppable comedy.

God damn. All of you fail to see the point. It's all laid out there plain as day but instead of seeing the whole picture you focus on a corner. Jedi/Sith vs gunner is not balanced. Something is being done to change it. I said I support. I see the problem as Push because it is cheap and easy to use and in my opinion only bad players who need a crutch use it. It's like this game's equivalent of a noob tube (under barrel grenade launcher) but even those take more skill to use than Push. I have no problem countering Push myself. Seriously, all this crying just because somebody proposed to make your easy kills be deserved kills.

I think this you how can't see a bigger picture, and the bigger picture is overall balance. This is not about beauty shining theories, this is about what people see when they join servers.

Jedi/sith already don't have all those lethal gadgets gunners have, and you are about to take away their non-lethal ability? Really?

I don't think you don't have enough skills to counter push, I think don't have enough patience and will to counter that, that's why you've decided to get rid of it.
You just get boring playing against sith, they annoys you, so your answer is nerf them to the level that you wouldn't have to use all your efforts to beat them.

Blobs have to be one of the most perfectly balanced things in the game.

Wrong thread. You should create a new one, near "Funniest pictures", call it "Funniest jokes" and post it there.

"Almost everyone" only includes you and Puppytine. Everybody else that has said something that only relates to Push and not the overall balance. Every single person that said Hold shift does not relate to the thread.

Just read thread again, from first page, you'll see that most people said that push is ok. They just weren't so stubborn like you, me, or @Preston to keep arguing for 30 pages.

Seriously if force powers also affected teammates it would make them using it be like a guy with a grenade. Think before you do it.

It would make pushing nades impossible. The chat would be full of messages like "who the f*** are that retard who pushes???????!!!!!!!!", "stop pushing you idiots!!" etc.

If you get blobbed you either deserve to die for standing still enough to get hit or the clone deserves the kill for hitting a moving target.

Yet another theory. In reality, 3 clones with blobs just clears map from sith, not giving them a single freaking chance to do something.

Push is LOLO I can tap a button and make everything fall!

Theory, theory, theory. In reality, sometimes people get pushed, sometimes sith get shot. Team who just push moar doesn't get any advantage.

Not really nerfed so much as certain parts of the ability reallocated into the ability itself. Push wouldn't lose anything, per say, it just wouldn't be "push button, a bunch of things happen all at once". As I explained pages ago, I dislike when abilities are brainless and lack depth, which is in my opinion push at the moment.

Well, I just wasn't good enough expressing my point.
I just meant that you are just between the people like me, who strongly insist that today's push should stay, and people like @SomeGuy, who want it nerfed. You agree that those propositions may deserve to be implemented, but you don't insist on that.

Oh my god, that is exactly what I proposed. You're insane.

You (and your comrades) proposed not only that. There was a lot of talks about making push require aiming just like a gun, so it even affects only one person, not just smaller cone.
But anyway, both of it are just straight nerfing, and I completely disagree with them.

Because we've been benefiting and exploiting those occasions where players you didn't TARGET are knocked down it's fine as is?

But team's support needs to attempt knockdown multiple opponents in hope at least one would be dumb enough to run, otherwise it would be just a license to run for a gunners.
I'm talking about "many vs many" situation, like dotf main corridor or dotf main-to-fed space, when gunners shot to each other, walking/running/walking, and sith basically stand still, trying to push nades and opponents or catch a moment and rush to attack.
Impossibility to push more than one enemy would make saberists almost useless in such situations, it will be all about gunners.

I find this mindset disturbing and revolting. Really, some people here. Need to be put behind bars.
They are not well. Noobs are people too!

So we need make game imbalanced for average and high-skilled players only because of some damn noobs?

This is just one big happy family.

 

[Bazinga]

@Puppytine good summary of the thread so far in fairness.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

@Puppytine good summary of the thread so far in fairness.

They got together like a horse and carriage.

 

[SomeGuy]

I'm getting really tired of this thread... It feels like I'm holding an orange and trying to describe it but everybody tells me I've got an apple. Sure they're both fruits that grow on a tree, but you can't overlook it when I say it smells like citrus and has a tough rind.

So just for the record, again, I have absolutely no issue whatsoever personally for dealing with Push. I know the timing, I know the behavior, it's all part of my reflex now. My issue is not with myself or my performance.

My issue is that by watching the teeming masses of new players evolve in skill (which are now part of our average players), a majority of them cling to a favor Push 3 Jedi and refuse anything else because it is harder to use. They use it as a crutch, and yes other classes have crutches to a degree as well, but the problem with the crutch is that after a while they rely on it completely and don't try "walking" (har har) on their own.

Mastering Push 3 is immensely easier than mastering the "walk timing" or whatever you want to call it. What reason do these casual, average, mediocre players have to try any harder at the game? None, really. Push is quick, cheap, and easy to use with low risk.

I agree and find it completely true that more skilled players use Pull or other setups and do so much better than the Pushers. And I also agree that trying to use Push in a higher skill filled arena does not bode well for the user.

That is why, if you look at the Objective in my first post, I stated the purpose of this thread was to Remove the ability for Push to be a crutch for lesser skilled players and be more rewarding for higher skilled players.

I feel that the average, mediocre public game player using a Push 3 reliant Jedi setup performs better than the same type of player using a gun.

I feel that my updated proposal, the one with the better pictures, may fill the role in removing the crutch while giving skilled players a better advantage but definitely isn't perfect. I also feel that other contributors' ideas, like Bombad and BigBoss' idea for other levels of Push to get a buff while points costs increase, and Supa's idea for knockdown time to be dependant on where the force user was looking when it happened, are also very good ideas.

This thread strays so far off topic and off point, with misunderstandings from all sides, it is just ludicrous.

 

[Preston]

I'm getting really tired of this thread... It feels like I'm holding an orange and trying to describe it but everybody tells me I've got an apple. Sure they're both fruits that grow on a tree, but you can't overlook it when I say it smells like citrus and has a tough rind.

So just for the record, again, I have absolutely no issue whatsoever personally for dealing with Push. I know the timing, I know the behavior, it's all part of my reflex now. My issue is not with myself or my performance.

My issue is that by watching the teeming masses of new players evolve in skill (which are now part of our average players), a majority of them cling to a favor Push 3 Jedi and refuse anything else because it is harder to use. They use it as a crutch, and yes other classes have crutches to a degree as well, but the problem with the crutch is that after a while they rely on it completely and don't try "walking" (har har) on their own.

Mastering Push 3 is immensely easier than mastering the "walk timing" or whatever you want to call it. What reason do these casual, average, mediocre players have to try any harder at the game? None, really. Push is quick, cheap, and easy to use with low risk.

I agree and find it completely true that more skilled players use Pull or other setups and do so much better than the Pushers. And I also agree that trying to use Push in a higher skill filled arena does not bode well for the user.

That is why, if you look at the Objective in my first post, I stated the purpose of this thread was to Remove the ability for Push to be a crutch for lesser skilled players and be more rewarding for higher skilled players.

I feel that the average, mediocre public game player using a Push 3 reliant Jedi setup performs better than the same type of player using a gun.

I feel that my updated proposal, the one with the better pictures, may fill the role in removing the crutch while giving skilled players a better advantage but definitely isn't perfect. I also feel that other contributors' ideas, like Bombad and BigBoss' idea for other levels of Push to get a buff while points costs increase, and Supa's idea for knockdown time to be dependant on where the force user was looking when it happened, are also very good ideas.

This thread strays so far off topic and off point, with misunderstandings from all sides, it is just ludicrous.

just cause lots of new players join doesnt make them average in a couple of weeks.
Mastering push 3 isnt easier actually.
And you want to make push3 more rewarding for higher skilled players? when did you talk about that?

 

[Cat Lady]

Ok guys, after 33 pages, this thread long ago turned into "everyone repeats the same arguments again" (amongst more and more flaming/off-topic). MBII team is fully aware of all your suggestions and ideas regarding push 3 balance - thank you.

Topic closed,
/Cat Lady