Push 3 Balance

[SomeGuy]

Welcome to the topic. Please excuse the name, I didn't think too hard about it but this should probably be called

Force Push Re Balance​

Let me start of here by first saying I do not think Push is Overpowered and this is Not a Nerf Thread. But there is a problem I have with how it affects gameplay. The issue that I want addressed here is The Use of Push 3 as a player crutch and this is what I want to see removed.
Not sure what I mean by that? Let me explain then. I'm sure a lot of you have noticed that Push 3 is easy to use to knock down targets and get some nice ground kills. All the while it is also easy to stop by walking, crouching or standing still. But the real issue is that it is much easier to use Push and very forgiving in mistakes by the user.
What does this mean? Well, simply put, it means that a Pusher has to put forth less effort in an engagement as opposed to his target. And to add a little more to it, a Force User without Push level 3 has to put forth even more effort than his opponent if not the same. This is not good from a gameplay balance standpoint.
What happens from this, then? Well, most Force User class configs basically have Push 3 as a necessity rather than an option. Players become reliant on it and other great elements become unused.
But hasn't Push remained the same for many years? Yes it has, but I never noticed the problem until recently.
How did I see this issue? It actually happened to be the large influx of brand new players. Watching them progress in player ability map after map or even days. But the thing I noticed the most is that they all used Push 3.
What's wrong with them all using Push? Nothing, except for the fact that they try out other classes or force powers but fail and go back to Push 3.
Why would they go back to using Push 3 over and over? After seeing this and examining it, I saw it helped their player ability. Sure, they still weren't very good but they were substantially better than not using it.
So this is a New Player problem? No, not at all. The new players merely opened my eyes by seeing the sheer number of them doing it. I am certain everybody knows of one or a few players who exclusively play Jedi with Push 3.
How does Push help these players out so much? From what I concluded it is because Push is extremely simple and easy to use. It can even be used in a majority of situations. Not much effort has to be used to be averagely effective at the game now.

Now in my opinion this is not fair at all because all players should have to give the same amount of effort to be effective. Sure, all players are different and some are better than others or vice versa. But they all try about the same to be a positive contribution to the team. Just because someone is good or bad at playing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

So, from all this I try and figure out a way to complete this objective: Make Push Harder to Use for Bad Players but Still Retain it's Effectiveness for Good Players.

Here we go then, my idea is below. I am certainly also not saying my idea is the best one or the only option. The one directly below is an edit after reading things from this thread and mashing them together while also thinking of other gameplay elements and how they work. My very original idea, which was pointed out would actually be a nerf (which is not my plan) is at the very bottom.

Probably the most important part of the topic is that these are all suggestions, which means they are not guaranteed to be implemented and are also all subject to change. Everybody here should be striving to make the game a better experience. I implore everybody to share their suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. The key word is collaboration.

Another extremely important part of it is that we all discuss this in a constructive, mature, and polite manner. I don't want to see the thread devolve any more than it has because there are some very good ideas here. If you need an example, here are a couple.

This is how to not be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: Hah, (x) is fine you just need to do (z) better.
This is how to be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: I don't understand your issue with (x), you can just do (z), can you help me understand?​

So after thinking through after all the things people posted I came up with a new idea built upon some of it. Of course all not set in stone.

Push 3 changes to have a narrower knockdown area which is like a tube in front of the Jedi that is a bit around the crosshairs. Not as pinpoint as a blaster shot but they would still basically need to be aiming at them. But here's the twist, it only is like that for instant button pushes. To compensate the animation should be sped up by about a quarter of a second, reducing the time that the Jedi is vulnerable. But wait, there's more. The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this but this is just expanding on the idea so it may be too much. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.

This can even be applied to Pull to make it affect a group after a charge, which would give that power a bigger oompf it definitely needs!

There have been a number of ideas posted in the thread, which may need to be expanded on and complimented, such as:

• All levels of Push knockdown at different ranges and spreads
• Changes in Force Point cost
• Changes in Class Point cost
• Delay before pushing
• Charge up before use
• Differing types of knockback areas

Below is my first original post.

Now before you all start saying "l2walk" what this stems from is just the amount of Jedi/Sith who only use Push 3 as their main offensive weapon. In my opinion it is way too effective and versatile for how cheap it costs in both class points and FP. When looking at Pull, not only does it cost more, but it is harder to use due to the direct aim required and shorter range. I have seen plenty of players who don't use Push 3, but in comparison to the majority that do they need to play a lot smarter and harder. Push is just too easy.

My proposed fix is very simple although I don't know if the engine allows it. Have push be the way it is for range and AOE, especially projectiles, except for the knockdown which needs to be on the crosshair. Of course the closer the range the more lax this would be and anyone pushed outside of the knockdown sweet spot would still get pushed back, to help get those guys on a cliff. Pull could even be reworked the same way so a large group of people could be nudged closer rather than fall down.

This would increase the skill required to use it and help reduce the class spam for people looking to get easy kills but still maintain the support role it can fill.

Here is a representation of what I mean.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/DarkFett/push._zpsbkp88iqp.jpg

 

[Phelps]

Ok. So. I'm walking along, a Jedi pushes me, I shoot him. He doesn't die. He catches me running he pushes me, I almost certainly die. Is that balanced?

Again, 1v1 scenario. Tell me, Ouj, what would be, in your example, different with his idea of Push? From your example I guess you are close to the Jedi, so I guess his "knock back cone" would still get you on your back even without the need of aim. If you shoot him during the Push, you take big chunk of FP alongside with HP. Most of the time, if that happens, Jedi is dead. Plain and simple. So basically, if he misuses Push, the same you would misuse your ability to walk, he will almost certainly die too.

Cos the fact is, you get pushed, unless you're protected by teammates or are playing as a class with resistance to push you're almost certainly dead. Chances of killing a Jedi through one push vulnerability is very slim unless you're a sniper.

That's why I do like the idea of doing something about knock backs and get ups, not Push.
And I might use counter argument again, that MBII is initially a team based game. I guess, it's okay for a lore's superior characters to win most of the 1v1 fights.

Let's use 1v3 scenario.

Our Push: You have a huge knock back area, but I hardly see a scenario, where all three would get pushed. You might knock back two, leaving third to cripple, or kill you (or you might get him too). Or you might be unlucky, knock back one and the other two will, most of the time, kill you. Or you might be totally screwed, won't Push anybody and get raped. If you knock back all three, then they are bad and deserve to die.

His Push: Well, basically read what I said about "knock back one of them" scenario.

His idea of Push is only good at 1v1 scenario. Other than that, it would be useless in the fight.

Let's use common sense and pull for example. You have to take the weapon, so you have to concentrate on one point with that particular force power, called Pull. Outcome, you do have to aim carefully. With Push, you push Force that spreads, it doesn't go in thin line, it's like a wind, it does not blow from one point to another, it spreads everywhere in front of the user.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

In a 3v1 scenario you should die unless you're very good though Phelps. That's why you shouldn't get outnumbered. I agree however that its not a problem with push necessarily but with knockdowns. Push is the primary cause of them.

Grenades are limited and are countered by several things and rarely straight up lead to death.

Thing with push is it involves no input by the user. Grenades need to cook, they have small knock back areas and need to be aimed. Blobs need aim, push needs to be looking vaguely in his direction. Which is why this cone would mean you'd need to look more at who you want to knock down. The cone hasn't even been discussed and can be adjusted for balance. It'll just be a bit harder to use. Not like pull which needs to be in the cross hair or anything.

Other suggestions have been presented like Ben's which was ok but it would indirectly nerf secondary grenades against other gunners making them a lot weaker but it's an option for sure.

Too many posts here have been lol you're not good enough rather than actually presenting options. So thanks for the input Phelps.

 

[Phelps]

This is how proper KB area would look like imo, not like in OP.
Push spreads, it has knock back ability, that eventually decreases with distance. But that powerful part of the Push won't go in a straight cone to one point, that power spreads and with that spread it loses its initial power. That's why I think it would look something like this. Green zone would reach beyond the KB area, I drew that part wrong.


EDIT: Heeeey, he edited his initial post, I only remember the first picture! I must say I am intrigued by the idea of charge. But it's too much of a give away, because I guess that charge would be accompanied by a sound or stance of model. But it would be almost the same as "cooking" a grenade. Will give that charge a thought, seems interesting, but needs a lot of extra work for it to be good. Sound would be good I guess, but it would have to be the same as cooking Ion blobs. Kind of a fast zip sound and then boom.

One drawback comes to mind. For what good would be Push 1 and 2? It seems to me, they could be put away and the cost of P1 + P2 + P3 (maybe even less than that) put into one ablity called Push.

 

[Preston]

This is how proper KB area would look like imo, not like in OP.
Push spreads, it has knock back ability, that eventually decreases with distance. But that powerful part of the Push won't go in a straight cone to one point, that power spreads and with that spread it loses its initial power. That's why I think it would look something like this. Green zone would reach beyond the KB area, I drew that part wrong.


EDIT: Heeeey, he edited his initial post, I only remember the first picture! I must say I am intrigued by the idea of charge. But it's too much of a give away, because I guess that charge would be accompanied by a sound or stance of model. But it would be almost the same as "cooking" a grenade. Will give that charge a thought, seems interesting, but needs a lot of extra work for it to be good. Sound would be good I guess, but it would have to be the same as cooking Ion blobs. Kind of a fast zip sound and then boom.

It would be okay, it would just need to be like half the amount of point cost though. And lots of other tweaks to make sure gunners cant just rush all they want

 

[Derek Jeter]

Push has been the same for ages, and the game has been great for ages....trying to fix what ain't broken is a recipe for disaster if you keep doing it.
There's a reason why you see push more now...
Pull was nerfed to oblivion and sense doesn't even work past doors now.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

You know, those can be fixed. The whole point of this is to examine the skill and how it plays, if its because pull doesn't work like it should and neither does sense. Then those can be adjusted and fixed so the saber kit isn't useless.

My problem with push is the range and how it can knock me down regardless of distance.
That arc people are discussing, that could just be for knocking down the gunner. Where the rest of push remains the same. You just have to put your reticule on the person for knock down to occur.

Here is an idea, from my understanding only push 3 does knockdown correct?
Why bother with push 1 and 2 if only 3 knocks down.

Why not put knock down on all levels of push and the upgrades are just how far your push reaches.
You just aim at the player for knock down, and push level means how close you have to be to the person.
That seems like a fair compromise, push 1 and 2 become viable. And it takes more effort to knock people down.

 

[Revanic]

I'd like that.

 

[Preston]

You know, those can be fixed. The whole point of this is to examine the skill and how it plays, if its because pull doesn't work like it should and neither does sense. Then those can be adjusted and fixed so the saber kit isn't useless.

My problem with push is the range and how it can knock me down regardless of distance.
That arc people are discussing, that could just be for knocking down the gunner. Where the rest of push remains the same. You just have to put your reticule on the person for knock down to occur.

Here is an idea, from my understanding only push 3 does knockdown correct?
Why bother with push 1 and 2 if only 3 knocks down.

Why not put knock down on all levels of push and the upgrades are just how far your push reaches.
You just aim at the player for knock down, and push level means how close you have to be to the person.
That seems like a fair compromise, push 1 and 2 become viable. And it takes more effort to knock people down.

So your saying you want push levels 1 2 and 3 to knock down, but you want to lower the range of push and you want to lowers its aoe correct?

 

[Vitéz]

Even if you enable the knockdown on all levels, and only the range would be the difference, the nerfed arc (depending on the nerf of course) would let the Gunners nearly freely run in a normal match (1 class/team), if the team plays out this tactic properly. On the other side, this topic is based on the problem that there are players who believe that a change like this would compensate their lacking ability of walking. If lvl1 Push could be able to knock down players, these players would make a cryfest here about how OP Push is... because they still couldnt walk, so they would be knocked down... I dont want to see that cryfest. I dont want to see another topic like this, when the problem is clearly based in the player differences. Its always easier to blame the game, this is what happens here. Its not the first similiar topic here, and probably isnt the last.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Not sure I like the idea of knockdown on all Push levels but I do like your cone Phelps.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Even if you enable the knockdown on all levels, and only the range would be the difference, the nerfed arc (depending on the nerf of course) would let the Gunners nearly freely run in a normal match (1 class/team), if the team plays out this tactic properly. On the other side, this topic is based on the problem that there are players who believe that a change like this would compensate their lacking ability of walking. If lvl1 Push could be able to knock down players, these players would make a cryfest here about how OP Push is... because they still couldnt walk, so they would be knocked down... I dont want to see that cryfest. I dont want to see another topic like this, when the problem is clearly based in the player differences. Its always easier to blame the game, this is what happens here. Its not the first similiar topic here, and probably isnt the last.

There is going to be crying about this regardless how this situation is handled. My faction will cry if ignored, your faction will cry if we are not ignored. Nobody is going to be happy so I decided to go for a compromise where both sides benefit and end up smirking.

So your saying you want push levels 1 2 and 3 to knock down, but you want to lower the range of push and you want to lowers its aoe correct?

I don't like the range but I never asked for the range to get nerfed. This is going nowhere, and it bugs the shit out me of how push is only viable unless its level 3. People proposed that you have to physically aim your push. But you and everyone else said that would ruin jedi forever and continuously overreact and repeat yourself with poor arguments. So I thought of a way to make both sides happy.

Require aiming on the push, add knock downs to the lower levels. You only need level 1 push to knock somebody down but you need level 3 in order to push snipe a knock down. By doing this, you can have cqc warrior jedi and long range support jedi. By adding knock down to level 1 push, that frees up points for people to use in other skills who wish to be the frontline warrior type.

 

[Vitéz]

Lol, this topic, this 18 pages is your crying. You want to change something, what is balanced and works properly, just because you simply dont want to walk. And this fact is totally ignored. Again: this problem is about player differences. We're not NPCs, we're unique humans. All of us plays this game differently, but the rules are the same for all of us. If you ignore the fact that walking gives protection against the knockback of Push (+ also gives extra accuracy for Blaster btw), and you decide on your own, that you dont walk ingame, you can only blame yourself for this. But this is not a reason to change something, just to make it better for you. The players must adapt to the rules, not the rules to the players.

My problem with this is that if balancing would work like this, everyone could cry about something, that XY should be changed because I cant do this and that, and obviously it would be impossible to make the balancing to fit to all gamestyles we players have. Why do you think your problem is an exception? Why do you think the game should be changed, forcing other players to adapt to a new mechanism, just because you decided to not adapt to the old one?

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Lol, this topic, this 18 pages is your crying.

It was actually very civil until your group started to chimp out on our discussion.
Infact I think it was you first who started throwing straw-mans and insults before the rest of us did.
So I am going to have to ask you to just deal with it.

Why do you think the game should be changed, forcing other players to adapt to a new mechanism, just because you decided to not adapt to the old one?

I can counter this and ask what makes you immune to change?
What makes you so special that nobody can touch your kit?

But give you every right to walk all over and touch mine?
As you said, we are all human beings but you seem to jump at the chance to disrespect the rest of us who disagree with your perfect idea of game balancing,

I proposed an idea that actually buff the lower levels of this skill, so they actually do something other than be a requirement to get level 3. Not even a mention of nerf.
Yet you still insist on insulting the very idea that your class should never be touched when it isn't your decision to make.

 

[Vitéz]

I'm not immune to changes, Dexterity was changed despite all my efforts to keep it as it was, just because the casual players couldnt use it properly. Yet, the skill isnt used more frequently nowdays, because there was nothing wrong with the skill: it was about player differences. This case is the very same. Casuals cry about Push being so OP that everything is instantly knocked down if a Jedi arrives and its so hard to counter. Casuals propose that the arc should be nerfed. But it wouldnt teach casuals how to play the game. They will find another reason why others are better in the future, because the knockdown will still happen. Damn, this happens for years: players want changes, because they think they'll be better with it, but they wont. And your counter is stupid. Its not about being immune. Its about you want to change something what works properly. With the very same logic, everything else should be changed, because Padawan1 is weak against Proj. Rifle, Padawan2 is weak against blob, Padawan3 cant duel, etc.

Anyway, why do you think that the Push arc is broken? Its the same since forever?! I'm sure we'd have found this "problem", if it'd be such a problem.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

And your counter is stupid.

See here you go again with the insults.

Its not about being immune. Its about you want to change something what works properly. With the very same logic, everything else should be changed, because Padawan1 is weak against Proj. Rifle, Padawan2 is weak against blob, Padawan3 cant duel, etc.

It doesn't work properly, if it did push 1 and 2 would have a purpose instead of being stepping stones.
Whats the point of having level 1 and 2 push if only 3 is worth getting?
Why not combine all the points from 1 and 2 and make push 3 one skill bubble.

I found a solution to make push work better than before, and still be just as effective pre patched if not more.

And you are shooting it down because you care about the casuals bitching and moaning where before you didn't care what casuals said and used git gud as an argument.

Now you are displaying cognitive dissonance. Which is it?
Ignore the casuals, or listen to them?

Because frankly speaking, casuals don't sign up for forum accounts. If they are dissatisfied with a game they move on. Not sit and bitch about it on a internet fourm like the rest of us. Seeing as there are people sitting down and discussing this to the point of 18 pages tells me we are very much hardcore. And you are insulting us by telling us to git gud.

So I suggest you accept the fact this is going to be discussed no matter how rude and ragey you type.
Deal with it.

 

[Vitéz]

All right, I give up, this is pointless. I hope everything turns out well and we can happily laugh together in the future, when these poor Gunners will be knocked down by Push after they get the changes what they want so badly, and see you in the next thread about nerfing Jedi instead of L2P.

Note:
Push1: good to counter grenades and rockets, but has very high FP requirement
Push2: same as lvl1, but has normal FP requirement
Push3: same as lvl2, but area is wider can be used on player targets to knock them down
Push lvl1 and lvl2 isnt useless.... but casuals cant use Pull, so they stick with Push. Again: it has nothing to do with the skill. This is what I babled about: player problems isnt the same as balancing problems.

Note2: Sorry to point out your ridiculous try to "counter" my previous post with something nonsense and to call that try stupid. I shouldnt have do that.

Edit: I didnt raged. I told what I wanted to say, and I used reasons to sell my story. Your only reason beside the changes is to help noobs. This isnt a reason to change something. This isnt singleplayer. About calling your try stupid: yeah, maybe it was harsh, but it was far from raging. Dont try to twist my words.

 

[Preston]

I agree, lets all just go back to playing mb2

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Running away from problems doesn't solve them.

Also
This subject will not be killed, no matter how much you try to redirect it preston.

paragraph

I am going to ignore the passive aggressive attitude because ive been doing it since page 3.
Don't bother apologizing if you don't mean it.

 

[Preston]

And push is balanced, no matter how much you try to say otherwise. Im done with this thread, push isnt changing when the majority thinks its balanced. You can keep bringing up the same argument, but each argument has the exact same answer. Now it would be better to actually try to learn how to fight jedi better and push aswell, rather than complaining about the game thats had push like this for like a decade.a lower cone would make it lose its support role, lower distance would make it under powerd. Push is easy to use, and easy to counter. If you and everyone else on this thread understand this fact then I dont know what to tell you. Push is balanced ,and the majority, overwhelming majority beieves so aswell, including the dev team.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

So you are saying that you will stop trolling this thread and derailing it and actually let us discuss things?
Okay I accept your proposal.