Push 3 Balance

[SomeGuy]

Welcome to the topic. Please excuse the name, I didn't think too hard about it but this should probably be called

Force Push Re Balance​

Let me start of here by first saying I do not think Push is Overpowered and this is Not a Nerf Thread. But there is a problem I have with how it affects gameplay. The issue that I want addressed here is The Use of Push 3 as a player crutch and this is what I want to see removed.
Not sure what I mean by that? Let me explain then. I'm sure a lot of you have noticed that Push 3 is easy to use to knock down targets and get some nice ground kills. All the while it is also easy to stop by walking, crouching or standing still. But the real issue is that it is much easier to use Push and very forgiving in mistakes by the user.
What does this mean? Well, simply put, it means that a Pusher has to put forth less effort in an engagement as opposed to his target. And to add a little more to it, a Force User without Push level 3 has to put forth even more effort than his opponent if not the same. This is not good from a gameplay balance standpoint.
What happens from this, then? Well, most Force User class configs basically have Push 3 as a necessity rather than an option. Players become reliant on it and other great elements become unused.
But hasn't Push remained the same for many years? Yes it has, but I never noticed the problem until recently.
How did I see this issue? It actually happened to be the large influx of brand new players. Watching them progress in player ability map after map or even days. But the thing I noticed the most is that they all used Push 3.
What's wrong with them all using Push? Nothing, except for the fact that they try out other classes or force powers but fail and go back to Push 3.
Why would they go back to using Push 3 over and over? After seeing this and examining it, I saw it helped their player ability. Sure, they still weren't very good but they were substantially better than not using it.
So this is a New Player problem? No, not at all. The new players merely opened my eyes by seeing the sheer number of them doing it. I am certain everybody knows of one or a few players who exclusively play Jedi with Push 3.
How does Push help these players out so much? From what I concluded it is because Push is extremely simple and easy to use. It can even be used in a majority of situations. Not much effort has to be used to be averagely effective at the game now.

Now in my opinion this is not fair at all because all players should have to give the same amount of effort to be effective. Sure, all players are different and some are better than others or vice versa. But they all try about the same to be a positive contribution to the team. Just because someone is good or bad at playing doesn't mean they aren't trying.

So, from all this I try and figure out a way to complete this objective: Make Push Harder to Use for Bad Players but Still Retain it's Effectiveness for Good Players.

Here we go then, my idea is below. I am certainly also not saying my idea is the best one or the only option. The one directly below is an edit after reading things from this thread and mashing them together while also thinking of other gameplay elements and how they work. My very original idea, which was pointed out would actually be a nerf (which is not my plan) is at the very bottom.

Probably the most important part of the topic is that these are all suggestions, which means they are not guaranteed to be implemented and are also all subject to change. Everybody here should be striving to make the game a better experience. I implore everybody to share their suggestions, ideas, and thoughts. The key word is collaboration.

Another extremely important part of it is that we all discuss this in a constructive, mature, and polite manner. I don't want to see the thread devolve any more than it has because there are some very good ideas here. If you need an example, here are a couple.

This is how to not be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: Hah, (x) is fine you just need to do (z) better.
This is how to be constructive.
Person 1: I think that (x) should work this way because of (y).
Person 2: I don't understand your issue with (x), you can just do (z), can you help me understand?​

So after thinking through after all the things people posted I came up with a new idea built upon some of it. Of course all not set in stone.

Push 3 changes to have a narrower knockdown area which is like a tube in front of the Jedi that is a bit around the crosshairs. Not as pinpoint as a blaster shot but they would still basically need to be aiming at them. But here's the twist, it only is like that for instant button pushes. To compensate the animation should be sped up by about a quarter of a second, reducing the time that the Jedi is vulnerable. But wait, there's more. The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this but this is just expanding on the idea so it may be too much. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.

This can even be applied to Pull to make it affect a group after a charge, which would give that power a bigger oompf it definitely needs!

There have been a number of ideas posted in the thread, which may need to be expanded on and complimented, such as:

• All levels of Push knockdown at different ranges and spreads
• Changes in Force Point cost
• Changes in Class Point cost
• Delay before pushing
• Charge up before use
• Differing types of knockback areas

Below is my first original post.

Now before you all start saying "l2walk" what this stems from is just the amount of Jedi/Sith who only use Push 3 as their main offensive weapon. In my opinion it is way too effective and versatile for how cheap it costs in both class points and FP. When looking at Pull, not only does it cost more, but it is harder to use due to the direct aim required and shorter range. I have seen plenty of players who don't use Push 3, but in comparison to the majority that do they need to play a lot smarter and harder. Push is just too easy.

My proposed fix is very simple although I don't know if the engine allows it. Have push be the way it is for range and AOE, especially projectiles, except for the knockdown which needs to be on the crosshair. Of course the closer the range the more lax this would be and anyone pushed outside of the knockdown sweet spot would still get pushed back, to help get those guys on a cliff. Pull could even be reworked the same way so a large group of people could be nudged closer rather than fall down.

This would increase the skill required to use it and help reduce the class spam for people looking to get easy kills but still maintain the support role it can fill.

Here is a representation of what I mean.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/DarkFett/push._zpsbkp88iqp.jpg

 

[SomeGuy]

Uh yeah I did read, ive read every complaining post in this thread. All of them can be solved with walking. E11 is a much as a necessity as push3, sure maybe not every single gunner has it, but not every jedi has push 3 either believe it or not. And jedi should get more options to choose from because its basically the only melee class. Just. Cause it has alot to choose from does not mean it gets all those thing at once, I dont see your complaint in that. And by push being universal you mean doing its 2 functions right? Pushing back people and nades.

And the e11 is alot more universal than p3.

The problem here is you assume I want Jedi and Push to be useless. That is not the case. I want it to be more situational and thought towards. But trying to explain anything to you while you still miss the point is like trying to shove a brick through a pipe. Maybe I'll try it in shorter and simpler words.

JEDI LOTS TO PICK, MOSTLY USE PUSH
GUNNERS NOT LOTS TO PICK, USE DIFFERENT THINGS
JEDI PROBLEM NO POINT IN USING OTHER POWER

Also Pistol 3 is hands down over E-11. Which is a problem too.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Take e11 out of the game. The only people who will care much will be soldiers everyone else has a better option...

 

[Preston]

The problem here is you assume I want Jedi and Push to be useless. That is not the case. I want it to be more situational and thought towards. But trying to explain anything to you while you still miss the point is like trying to shove a brick through a pipe. Maybe I'll try it in shorter and simpler words.

JEDI LOTS TO PICK, MOSTLY USE PUSH
GUNNERS NOT LOTS TO PICK, USE DIFFERENT THINGS
JEDI PROBLEM NO POINT IN USING OTHER POWER

Also Pistol 3 is hands down over E-11. Which is a problem too.

I've already explained this. Jedi has lots to pick and choose from because it's the only melee class. All the other gunner classes have slightly less because there is lots of gunner classes and 1 and a half melee classes if you include wookie. Even though classes like arc and bounty hunter have tons of options aswell. And just because a class has more options than the other doesn't make that class better in any way. It isn't like you get more points to spend when you have other abilities to choose from.

And making push more situational like you suggest will be a nerf to jedi, thats just how it is. And as it is now, jedi is not over powerd, push is not over powerd. There's no reason for anyone to even try to reply to you because it's like talking to a stone wall that obviously won't change its opinion, because you know, its a wall.

I could see why a new player would think push is op, but not an experienced player like yourself, who has been playing for years like you said. Push is very easy and simple to counter and doesn't even work on decent players that know how to hold shift.

But since it seems you can't comprehend this, I'll put it into simpler terms for you so maybe you can understand.
PUSH MUCH EASY TO USE AND COUNTER. SHIFT = GOOD, NO SHIFT = FALL AND DIE (dead person face) MUCH BALANCED VERY EZ.

Anyways like I said before almost 3/4ths of the people here in this thread are fine with push and think it's balanced, including 1 and a halfish devs. So with that in mind I don't expect push being overhauled any time soon, atleast not in the way you propose, for it would make jedi underpowerd, push virtually useless, and its already meh support role gone.
( And yes I read all of yours and others suggestions).
And being rude doesnt help convince me that your suggestions are 10/10 would bang.

And when did any force powers get a major overhaul like you keep saying? Besides mind trick, the closest to an overhaul was choke when they added the icon for choking. And lowering pulls reach slightly isn't an overhaul, but is a tweak.

And no I don't "assume" you want to make jedi and push useless, but unknowingly those changes you suggested (charging push for 3 seconds to be like the current push ) would be a big nerf to jedis and push and diminish it's support role, causing jedi to be made under powerd and push virtually useless except in the hand's of very experienced players, even so with those changes, push would not even be worth getting because it wiuld be very overpriced.

If they do "nerf" push in any way, imo the best way to do it would be indirectly. Such as making a faster getup for single life classes like GoodOl'Ben suggested on page 14, 3 pages back.

 

[Puppytine]

Thanks for not reading and understanding a single thing I proposed. And it is class vs class. But for the most part all the other powers remain untouched and Push is the primary focus of the Jedi, which I think is the issue. Please before you say anything like that at least read what people say and don't assume things.

Then suggest what you think jedi should get instead of nerfed push. It must be valuable, hehe.

But for me this thread looks kinda "-- Let's nerf push!", "-- No let's not!"

 

[andrew]

The power can also be charged up for maybe around 2 or 3 seconds for maximum to unleash a full scale Push that knocks down all runners in the regular arc. Also I think the charged up blast should push things back with greater velocity. That would make for some fun grenade tosses. Although, the charge should not be able to be held indefinite so after maybe 2 or 3 seconds of holding automatically goes off. Now, to think of our saberless Jedi friends even more can come of this. Jedi with no sabers using Push 3 in melee can just tap it for full effect like it is now, but if they charge it fully it can Push over everybody in it's line of fire regardless of movement status. It would probably use more FP to compensate but that could make a force only Jedi a very valuable part of a team during a standoff. The issue of wookiees and SBDs I don't know of but if they could fall from it, would be a very useful ally to have.

its insane to me that you think current push is overpowered, but then suggest ridiculous changes where a 2 man jedi team would actually be able to slaughter entire teams

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

The main concern for me is an ability as versatile and powerful as push is so easy to use.

I still prefer the smaller cone but what if along with this Push 2 gets boosted to having Push 3's anti-grenade ability and the Push 3 upgrade is just knockdown - maybe at a lower cost?

 

[StarWarsGeek]

what if along with this Push 2 gets boosted to having Push 3's anti-grenade ability and the Push 3 upgrade is just knockdown - maybe at a lower cost?

I'm fairly certain push 2 and push 3 are already identical when it comes to pushing grenades.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

From what I remember push 3 pushes in the direction you're aiming push 2 does in the opposite direction so it's a lot less accurate especially with grenades. I may be mistaken though

 

[SomeGuy]

@Preston Every single post you have put into this thread has been rude and nonconstructive. I'm done feeding the troll. It drives me insane when people can't see my side of something and everybody that posts Hold Shift Lulz is being narrow sighted and closed minded and has completely missed the point of this. I can't say the people who agree with me are also coming from my same line of thinking but from as far as I can tell the only person who has a clue of what I'm getting at is @GoodOl'Ben . He very well may be right that instead of Push being the issue, it is all knockdowns. Push happens to be one of the most common forms of knockdowns so the connection there is very real.

So I've been playing this game for a very long time, and can assume most of you have too. Normally new people don't come around to the mod very often so this Force Awakens Star Wars fever was very different. So all these new people jump head first into the mod without any experience with even the base game, asking questions everywhere, and obviously being cannon fodder for anyone with some experience. Now most of these guys pick Jedi or Sith, obviously, because that's what one main aspect of the Star Wars universe is. But you watch them play the game map after map, even day after day if you see the same people. At first they are terrible and dying quickly, then learn a little more and are playing better but still die relentlessly to regulars. They learn to block and when Push will actually work. Then they start becoming these mediocre players but what really got at me was that they were still pretty effective versus the regulars and for most of their kills they got them with Push 3. It does not seem even, in my eyes, that a mediocre Pusher can perform about as equally as the average regular around. I even saw some of them switch to try guns and fail miserably just to go back to Jedi, or even the other force powers, and switch back to Push. Why keep going back to this? Why are they so reliant on this as still newer players? Because it is so easy to pick up and use compared to the other elements of the game. There is so much here to play with and so many different ways of doing it and that's what makes this game fun but there are many people who ignore the rest and stick to Push. So I figured the fix is to make it harder to use for those players and more rewarding for the rest.

 

[mkl]

stuff

I read the first page again after you updated it and I agree with your ideas. Push right now is powerful with little weaknesses in my opinion. I'm a pretty bad saberist and I can get away with pushing at the wrong time multiple times, unless it's a good gunner. It gives those new players a false sense of skill. They just keep hanging onto push and spamming it thinking they're getting better.

 

[Preston]

@Preston Every single post you have put into this thread has been rude and nonconstructive. I'm done feeding the troll. It drives me insane when people can't see my side of something and everybody that posts Hold Shift Lulz is being narrow sighted and closed minded and has completely missed the point of this. I can't say the people who agree with me are also coming from my same line of thinking but from as far as I can tell the only person who has a clue of what I'm getting at is @GoodOl'Ben . He very well may be right that instead of Push being the issue, it is all knockdowns. Push happens to be one of the most common forms of knockdowns so the connection there is very real.

So I've been playing this game for a very long time, and can assume most of you have too. Normally new people don't come around to the mod very often so this Force Awakens Star Wars fever was very different. So all these new people jump head first into the mod without any experience with even the base game, asking questions everywhere, and obviously being cannon fodder for anyone with some experience. Now most of these guys pick Jedi or Sith, obviously, because that's what one main aspect of the Star Wars universe is. But you watch them play the game map after map, even day after day if you see the same people. At first they are terrible and dying quickly, then learn a little more and are playing better but still die relentlessly to regulars. They learn to block and when Push will actually work. Then they start becoming these mediocre players but what really got at me was that they were still pretty effective versus the regulars and for most of their kills they got them with Push 3. It does not seem even, in my eyes, that a mediocre Pusher can perform about as equally as the average regular around. I even saw some of them switch to try guns and fail miserably just to go back to Jedi, or even the other force powers, and switch back to Push. Why keep going back to this? Why are they so reliant on this as still newer players? Because it is so easy to pick up and use compared to the other elements of the game. There is so much here to play with and so many different ways of doing it and that's what makes this game fun but there are many people who ignore the rest and stick to Push. So I figured the fix is to make it harder to use for those players and more rewarding for the rest.

I litteraly said that good ol ben was right lol. Makes me wonder if you even read my whole post. And how was my last post rude? Unless you count repeating what you said.

 

[Vitéz]

You really dont understand how much impact has the difference between players...
Noob Jedi vs Noob Gunner: Jedi will probably win, because its easier to 1 hit kill the target with saber, than hit the target a lot with blaster. This has nothing to do with Push, its a Blaster vs Saber difference, since noobs cant use any other ability properly.
Noob Jedi vs Good Gunner: The Gunner will win, because of the player differences.
Good Jedi vs Noob Gunner: The Jedi will win, because of the player differences.
Good Jedi vs Good Gunner: God knows who will win, the player differences will decide.

You want to nerf Push to be a (nearly?) single target ability. As I said it on the first page, I'm fine with the idea. However I also said that some compensation must be given to the Jedi because of this nerf, because the current Push is clearly not OP, so it shouldnt be changed at all: either the anti-Jedi abilities must be also nerfed, or Push must give another reward for the user, especially if we take note that your idea makes harder to use Push, but it doesnt make harder to counter it, it would be as easy as it is nowdays. And its very important, because with your idea, the Jedi would be forced to nearly focus on the target for a knockdown, so the target would know when is a knockdown via Push is expected. On the other side, all other Gunner in that area could nearly freely run, because the Jedi would be able to knock down only 1 or max. a very limited number of Gunners. Do you have any idea how big impact could this have on the game? You babled about this idea over 17 pages, but you never talked about this: the Jedi's ability to hold the line and to lead the team would be greatly reduced, simply because the Gunners would be allowed to run, because the risk would be really little.

On the other hand, if we accept your idea, I'd like to suggest another change: make secondary Frag Grenade target based ability, just like you plan to do with Push. Yeah, no more missing throws are knocking down the targets, the user should be forced to be accurate, and with this, the skill would be much more "player skill based" ability, just like you plan to do with Push. I'm sure you understand this would be a similiar nerf for Grenade, like you suggest for Push, but the Noob Gunners would be basically doomed against better players (not just against Jedi). Thats it. I gave you the idea to compensate the nerf of the Jedi, do you agree with this idea? Should we reduce the leading and tanking ability of the Jedi to help some noobs (no, sorry, to make Push a skill based ability) , but also reduce the radius of secondary Frag Grenade's knockdown effect to make it also a skill based ability (so to punish noobs)? Or we can agree finally, that it'd be awesome if players could learn how stuffs are working ingame, or at least learn to walk before babling about "OP abilities" over 17 pages?

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Actually Vitez it'll be quite similar to grenade secondary as the knockdown will be in an arc. So if there are 2 gunners next to each other you could push them down. Just like knocking both down with a grenade.

Perhaps make the pushback of those who fall less so the Jedi can close the gap easier? Means the knockdown will be more dangerous but harder to achieve with the smaller arc.

 

[Vitéz]

No, I couldnt always knock down both of them. If the 2 gunners would be far away, so at the outer side of the range (but still in range), only 1 of them would be knocked down, at least basing on the picture in the opening post. On the other hand, we throw the grenade away, so the range simply doesnt matter with the knockdown, while it does matter with Push. Thats a very important difference.

Anyway, I dont think there's any problem with the secondary grenade, but Push is fine, while this topic is clearly about an idea to nerf it. If you want to nerf a well working, not OP ability, its obvious that some compensation must be given. You didnt talked about this at all. Thats my problem. Not the proposed idea.

 

[Phelps]

@Preston Every single post you have put into this thread has been rude and nonconstructive. I'm done feeding the troll. It drives me insane when people can't see my side of something and everybody that posts Hold Shift Lulz is being narrow sighted and closed minded and has completely missed the point of this. I can't say the people who agree with me are also coming from my same line of thinking but from as far as I can tell the only person who has a clue of what I'm getting at is @GoodOl'Ben . He very well may be right that instead of Push being the issue, it is all knockdowns. Push happens to be one of the most common forms of knockdowns so the connection there is very real.

So you are driven insane, that people actually disagree with you? What did you expect? Sunshine and rainbows when you want to nerf balanced feature of the game? Maybe your point was given in a wrong way that you needed Ben to walk in the thread and actually made that point for you. You see, even Preston was okay with Ben's idea. Doesn't that say anything about your inability to say what you want to say? I have not read full 17 pages, but your initial idea DOES NOT talk about what Ben suggests. You basically wanted to nerf a perfectly balanced ability, while on the other hand Ben would re-do get ups and knock backs of characters. Those things are related, but it's hardly the same thing. Yes, and hold shift for God's sake, what is so hard on that.

I stand for what I said. Push is easy-to-use ability. BUT so is its counter abilities. It stinks of balance from far away.

So I've been playing this game for a very long time, and can assume most of you have too. Normally new people don't come around to the mod very often so this Force Awakens Star Wars fever was very different. So all these new people jump head first into the mod without any experience with even the base game, asking questions everywhere, and obviously being cannon fodder for anyone with some experience. Now most of these guys pick Jedi or Sith, obviously, because that's what one main aspect of the Star Wars universe is. But you watch them play the game map after map, even day after day if you see the same people. At first they are terrible and dying quickly, then learn a little more and are playing better but still die relentlessly to regulars. They learn to block and when Push will actually work. Then they start becoming these mediocre players but what really got at me was that they were still pretty effective versus the regulars and for most of their kills they got them with Push 3. It does not seem even, in my eyes, that a mediocre Pusher can perform about as equally as the average regular around. I even saw some of them switch to try guns and fail miserably just to go back to Jedi, or even the other force powers, and switch back to Push. Why keep going back to this? Why are they so reliant on this as still newer players? Because it is so easy to pick up and use compared to the other elements of the game. There is so much here to play with and so many different ways of doing it and that's what makes this game fun but there are many people who ignore the rest and stick to Push. So I figured the fix is to make it harder to use for those players and more rewarding for the rest.

You have just admitted it's a player problem, not Push problem. This is not an argument for crippling balanced ability as Push clearly is. I hardly think the solution for players to use something new is to take away the old thing. They will grow into it, give them time. This TFA boom has been going for over a month and those people still just look around. They will eventually waltz into different Force Powers. If not, then it's their own problem, but hardly the argument for a nerf.

I might use one counter-little-bit-stupid-argument as yours. Take away the Push and some will stop playing, because it gets too hard for them. Just give them time, they will grow into other Force powers and classes.

 

[Jorge]

Everyone try to be nice and keep it civil and avoid 'pushing' (lol) each other. Whether or not they agree with your opinion is their choice. not aimed at anyone specific but just a reminder.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Nobody is crippling Push, Phelps. It's too easy to use for how effective it is. That's it.

 

[Phelps]

His idea would cripple it.
Ben's would not.

And I will use again, the same argument all over again, because it's a valid one. Counters are easy to use too. These two statements are opposites, they negate themselves, leaving nothing. One ability is easy to use, and counters to that abilities are easy to use. Meaning: Balance.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Ok. So. I'm walking along, a Jedi pushes me, I shoot him. He doesn't die. He catches me running he pushes me, I almost certainly die. Is that balanced?

Cos the fact is, you get pushed, unless you're protected by teammates or are playing as a class with resistance to push you're almost certainly dead. Chances of killing a Jedi through one push vulnerability is very slim unless you're a sniper.

 

[Preston]

Ok. So. I'm walking along, a Jedi pushes me, I shoot him. He doesn't die. He catches me running he pushes me, I almost certainly die. Is that balanced?

Cos the fact is, you get pushed, unless you're protected by teammates or are playing as a class with resistance to push you're almost certainly dead. Chances of killing a Jedi through one push vulnerability is very slim unless you're a sniper.

Or if you know, walk. Its like phelps said, we can keep using the same exact argument because its valid.