Perspective from a new player

[{Δ} Achilles]

So I spent a while playing the mod, I haven't played JKJA itself for quite some time, so I was highly interested in it. As a competitive Chivalry MW/DW player, for quite some time, I decided to try and apply what I've known.

(Yes, I know I'm new, however I believe my opinion does make a difference, as I do have significant experience in competitive melee-style games, and I can understand the design choices)

The blaster play, and movement is amazing, the force powers are also amazing (if weirdly imbalanced)... however the saber combat?

Feels absolutely terrible. It is difficult to even see what you're doing, or if you even have had a major effect. I used all of the styles, and it seems like Red is incredibly strong compared to the others. I'll break down the issues in as short as I can

Saber combat feels stale, and feels like a trading match where each player takes turns with a combo, and the one who did the most stamina break, wins. Occasionally winning by way of knockdown. Does not feel fluid or fun at all. Not to mention, I found that I can (using Chivalry footwork) make a Jedi/Sith opponent miss 10, 20, 30 times in a row, but there is literally no way to take advantage of making them swing like fools. If I dodge their attack, and attempt to punish, I am immediately met with them blocking, and if they are using red style, I lose BP. Which recovers incredibly slowly, I might add.

Against multiple opponents, it feels like I'm just trying to trick one into a quick kill, or praying that they kill each other.

For those who haven't played Mount and Blade, or Chivalry: Mount and Blade is incredibly direction based, and Chivalry is incredibly timing based (Unless you have a shield, which uses a similar stamina feature to what MBII was going for, methinks).

I honestly believe the block, should only occur when using the block button, and it should only work for a short time, and if you attack while holding block as the opponent's saber connects, you should be able to stagger them slightly. The BP system should be there to keep people from swinging like idiots, and you should lose BP as you miss attacks, similar to Chivalry. I believe that would work significantly better. Either that, or make attacking expose yourself significantly more, and for longer.

Balance it like a fighting game. If I block your saber, I get +4 frame advantage, and you either block, or you eat a 4 frame faster attack than yours. Blocking and Attacking should be two separate entities in a video game, not simultaneous, and then adding stamina ontop of that. It isn't realistic enough to merit such a system.

Another issue with Saber, is the deflection is flawed in a couple of ways, giving anyone with a blaster a supreme advantage over a single Jedi/Sith target. It takes an incredibly long time for a Jedi/Sith to recover from a failed push. I'd argue 2 competent Commandos are literally impossible to beat as a Sith/Jedi. Bottom line, blasters fire waaaaaay too quickly to be balanced, and this rapid fire lends them to be incredibly strong against melee-type units *EXCEPT* Wookies/SBDs, who appear blatantly overpowered anyway.

On a side note, why is Lightning so bad? If you force push lightning a gunner, and he happened to walk at just the right time, you simply die. You can't recover fast enough to zap him, and I have instances where I manage to land the lightning push, then use the FULL force bar, and still not kill the opponent... Really quite a terrible power.



inb4 git gud u suk u must be bad, as a typical community response.

 

[NERO]

Lightning 3 does much more damage and has a higher cone in melee.

You can zap an enemy you've gripped with lightning if you let go of grip and then use lightning. I used to have a push 3, lightning 3 and grip 2 melee build, where I gripped someone to elevate them, then zapped them high into the air, and had gravity handle the rest. Afaik, lightning push mentioned by Hex also has a much stronger propulsion than a regular push 3. Do note that there's, I think, two to three seconds of cooldown after using a lightning push that prevents you from using push (and pull?).

Grip and lightning doesn't work that well against saberists because once you've gripped them, they might have recovered enough FP to block the lightning if you try it on them. A single force focus allows you to bypass block for only one use of a force ability at a time. They can also push you while you've got them gripped. If you want to use lightning on jedi, be sure they don't have enough force to block it (more than 50 FP at FB3) and aren't in a blocking status. They can also block force with the saber block while midair.

Against a herd of gunners, lightning push can be pretty useful support ability. There are some people who have less defense or sacrifice some other abilities to be able to carry a saber and have lightning 3 + push 3. But you must be able to catch all gunners in the lightning and not leave spots where they can shoot at you. Wookiee's at strength 3 take damage from lightning, but they can still shoot while being fried.

 

[Gumba]

Lightning 3 + Push 3 in melee knocks the opponent down for ages and costs literally no fp. Its the best thing you can have as far as force powers come in my opinion.

Not to mention that you can 100-0 solds, ET's and heros in a 1v1 with a full force lightning.

 

[Preston]

Alright, I'd say I'm far better at fighting anyone with a blaster, thanks to Nero's post. Also thanks to Yellow saber form. Still getting used to the whole saber thing. My path to getting better right now appears to be blocked by a seemingly unnecessarily difficult combo design.

Also, why is lightning 3 so terrible, and why can I not use it in conjunction with Grip? I feel as though the damage is horrendous, and the mana regen is too slow to make any decent use out of it.

I'd imagine if I kicked them to the ground, I could lightning them, but my lightning apparently did not hit them as they rolled. So instead I'd kick them to the ground, grip them, THEN lightning them, but I cannot do both...

If I'm not using it right, then what strategy should I be using? If I'm up against a Jedi, and they don't run, I feel as though I'm screwed.

Combo system isnt complicated. And lightning 3 dows loads of damage with melee out.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Lightning 3 should set wookiees on fire. It makes sense. All that fur...

Grip 3, grip in general is a joke outside of anything other than a paralytic or off the ledge with you ability. A soldier can survive being gripped 3 times with the duration fully used. Disappointing.

Lightning 3 Push 3 remains dominant against most everyone if used correctly. Emphasis on the latter. You obviously don't want to get them with it out in the open without any walls or boxes to stop them from slipping past your range, of lightning or your saber before they get up. You could call it balance so yes, you can screw up using lit 3 push.

The best tactic for lightning 3 I've seen is switching to melee and using it against jedi that attack gunners that just closed the distance. Tap it once when they're not holding block, usually on the attack and they're quick-get up is removed for the duration. Easy kill for gunners or to spam your saber. Just don't hold it down because you'd obviously be paralyzing your gunners ability to use their weapons. Tap it. do it. Tap tap tap.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

If you have Lightning 3 + Push 3 and are in melee your Lightning button will also attempt to push the target down. If a gunner is knocked down by this you'll deal a ton of damage with Lightning.

Vs Jedi I wouldn't bother using Lightning much, they can block it with their Lightsaber or with high FP. I sometimes like to use Lightning 2 and long range hit them while they are swinging but thats about it.

For a fun Force-whore Lightning/Grip build try:

Jump3
Push3
Grip3
Lighting3
FB1

Grip the target, aim into the eye and Lightning Push for glorious map-long super pushes. Be aware this is a ''lulz'' build, I do recommend grabbing a Lightsaber for playing properly.

Oh, I fought against/with you last night, you were one of the better players I had seen, and managed to survive some complicated situations.

 

[andrew]

while we're all here, whats the logic behind staff/duals being 14 points for a solo style

 

[Tempest]

The combo system is actually pretty simple, especially if you're coming from a fighting game background. Just slight adjustments on timing the start/stop of swings and blocking is a vast majority of it.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

The combo system is actually pretty simple, especially if you're coming from a fighting game background. Just slight adjustments on timing the start/stop of swings and blocking is a vast majority of it.

The combos in fighting games don't require precise timing to just continue a string, generally, unless you're referring to just inputs from, say, the Soul Cal series. Juggles require timing, but there is no way for your opponent to interrupt them. Dash cancels may require timing. However, again, usually don't rely on that much timing.

Yeah, I could hold down the button, but for whatever unknown reason that drains BP. Also, I saw a video on youtube showing 'upcoming changes' to the saber system from 3 years ago, which included 'staggering' on body hits... why isn't that still in? I get almost nothing but body hits, but then still lose just because I can't combo as well as my opponent can.

I also like the idea of lift-grip into lightning push, but why can't I lightning *while* choking someone, for far more damage?

Also, why don't Sith have speed? It is an incredibly useful utility that give Jedi a huge advantage on certain maps, like that Naboo one.

Oh, and just so everyone knows, this is the kind of fighting I was referring to in Chivalry (Also the kind I'm used to):

That is Isaac, one of my better students. Notice how you can end a fight in just a couple of swings.

Ah well, just questions about some frustrations I've encountered. Believe me, I'm not trying to whine or anything, I would simply like an explanation, and potential solutions. Perhaps bringing these things up might encourage fixes?

I have to ask questions, because so much of this game is poorly explained, and help in-game is extraordinarily difficult to find. I have to be annoying, and ask annoying things, because if I want to learn this game effectively, these things must be known.

 

[andrew]

please

please someone ban him the next time he mentions chivalry

edit: and his fighting game knowledge is limited to mortal kombat and soul calibur

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Oh god, what a joke, he only knows Mortal Kombat and Soul Calibur series' at tournament... let's all laugh at him. Very sorry my enjoyment of games, and usage of them of reference to this game, offends you.

 

[Preston]

Oh god, what a joke, he only knows Mortal Kombat and Soul Calibur series' at tournament... let's all laugh at him. Very sorry my enjoyment of games, and usage of them of reference to this game, offends you.

wait, are we suppose to laugh at andrew or you? Im confused

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Here, I'll bring in the opinion of another 'scrub' in this game:

{Δ} Achilles: They are the most unhelpful community I've ever met
{Δ} Beenubs: I got banned from a few servers minutes after getting the mod
{Δ} Beenubs: for "not being good enough"
{Δ} Achilles: 'Go look at the library'
{Δ} Beenubs: Luckily those were not the official servers
{Δ} Achilles: "Dude, the library just tells me it exists, not how to do it"
{Δ} Achilles: "No, it tells you how to do it"
{Δ} Achilles: "So is that why I was doing it wrong all that time, based on what the library said?"
{Δ} Achilles: "That seems like user error"
{Δ} Achilles: FUCKING WHAT!?
{Δ} Beenubs: That mod baffals me sometimes
{Δ} Achilles: I'm determined to get good at this
{Δ} Achilles: But there are only like 3-4 helpful people on the forums, and 2 helpful people in-game
{Δ} Achilles: and no practice mode
{Δ} Achilles: No proper explanation of mechanics
{Δ} Achilles: No wonder it took people 10 fucking years to master this
{Δ} Beenubs: Most wernt very new player friendly
{Δ} Beenubs: Some guy attempted to teach me mechanics on a duel server but kept getting killed by other "veterans"
{Δ} Beenubs: He got as far to tell me how to block and attack at different styles before he said he had to leave the game


Which is also pretty much my experience as well, only I've been able to get more answers by being an annoying asshole and asking them.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Also, why don't Sith have speed? It is an incredibly useful utility that give Jedi a huge advantage on certain maps, like that Naboo one.

IIRC, Sith used to have speed many years ago before force heal was removed from Jedi. When heal was removed, speed was removed from Sith and made Jedi's second "unique" power.

Give speed back to Sith, thx | Movie Battles II Community
Join the good fight. Speed for Sith 2016!

 

[BrainSpawn]

Interesting thread. Achilles, I wish you would have answered this post.

did you make it out of pools? its odd to call yourself a professional

theres really no need to form a counter argument to what you've said, though. i hate to say that but its true. dont you know that if you made these types of posts on srk.com, testyourmight, dustloop etc and then said you played for 12 hours they would just laugh at you and call you a scrub? you cite all this experience but the same situation applied to more professional games like sf4 would be ridiculous

 

[Preston]

Here, I'll bring in the opinion of another 'scrub' in this game:

{Δ} Achilles: They are the most unhelpful community I've ever met
{Δ} Beenubs: I got banned from a few servers minutes after getting the mod
{Δ} Beenubs: for "not being good enough"
{Δ} Achilles: 'Go look at the library'
{Δ} Beenubs: Luckily those were not the official servers
{Δ} Achilles: "Dude, the library just tells me it exists, not how to do it"
{Δ} Achilles: "No, it tells you how to do it"
{Δ} Achilles: "So is that why I was doing it wrong all that time, based on what the library said?"
{Δ} Achilles: "That seems like user error"
{Δ} Achilles: FUCKING WHAT!?
{Δ} Beenubs: That mod baffals me sometimes
{Δ} Achilles: I'm determined to get good at this
{Δ} Achilles: But there are only like 3-4 helpful people on the forums, and 2 helpful people in-game
{Δ} Achilles: and no practice mode
{Δ} Achilles: No proper explanation of mechanics
{Δ} Achilles: No wonder it took people 10 fucking years to master this
{Δ} Beenubs: Most wernt very new player friendly
{Δ} Beenubs: Some guy attempted to teach me mechanics on a duel server but kept getting killed by other "veterans"
{Δ} Beenubs: He got as far to tell me how to block and attack at different styles before he said he had to leave the game


Which is also pretty much my experience as well, only I've been able to get more answers by being an annoying asshole and asking them.

To get good and helpful answers, first you need to be less arrogant, ignorant and more grateful. I can see you guys are both in the same group or whatever. I assume he is the same as you. But then again I have never encountered someone so arrogant on any game ever. Especially from a new player

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Yo
Somebody brought up fighting games, I heard fighting games.
This is my area of expertise, I got 10 years of competitive fightan game experince under my belt.

Yo fighting games don't work in starwars unless you talking about this piece of shit.

Lightsaber combat is more like bushido blade but with directional control and a better camera.

Matches are either a few seconds, or 5 minutes. I noticed the same is applied to saber combat, when two duel its either over in seconds or the fight takes several minutes. Especially when it comes to good duelists.

If anyone is going to relate saber combat to fighting game mechanics, don't.
MB2 is it's own separate beast.

 

[Preston]

Yo
Somebody brought up fighting games, I heard fighting games.
This is my area of expertise, I got 10 years of competitive fightan game experince under my belt.

Yo fighting games don't work in this game unless you talking about this piece of shit.

Lightsaber combat is more like bushido blade but with directional control and a better camera.

If anyone is going to relate saber combat to fighting game mechanics, don't.
MB2 is it's own separate beast.

I love you now boss

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I heard the word soul caliber from across the forum, and I knew instantly what people were using its context in.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Interesting thread. Achilles, I wish you would have answered this post.

No, I didn't make it out of pools, as I went up against Mustard, and he ate my Shang Tsung alive. I couldn't meter manage against him.

The issue wasn't being new, the issue became 'Why doesn't this 10 year old mod have properly defined, and listed mechanics, with an offline practice mode?'

I didn't answer his post, because it was following an Ad Hominem path, to attempt to discredit me, rather than attack my argument. Which is exactly what he did a few posts ago by going 'Oh, he only knows MK9 and Soul Calibur'

 

[Preston]

No, I didn't make it out of pools, as I went up against Mustard, and he ate my Shang Tsung alive. I couldn't meter manage against him.

The issue wasn't being new, the issue became 'Why doesn't this 10 year old mod have properly defined, and listed mechanics, with an offline practice mode?'

I didn't answer his post, because it was following an Ad Hominem path, to attempt to discredit me, rather than attack my argument. Which is exactly what he did a few posts ago by going 'Oh, he only knows MK9 and Soul Calibur'

like how you attacked him?