Perspective from a new player

[{Δ} Achilles]

So I spent a while playing the mod, I haven't played JKJA itself for quite some time, so I was highly interested in it. As a competitive Chivalry MW/DW player, for quite some time, I decided to try and apply what I've known.

(Yes, I know I'm new, however I believe my opinion does make a difference, as I do have significant experience in competitive melee-style games, and I can understand the design choices)

The blaster play, and movement is amazing, the force powers are also amazing (if weirdly imbalanced)... however the saber combat?

Feels absolutely terrible. It is difficult to even see what you're doing, or if you even have had a major effect. I used all of the styles, and it seems like Red is incredibly strong compared to the others. I'll break down the issues in as short as I can

Saber combat feels stale, and feels like a trading match where each player takes turns with a combo, and the one who did the most stamina break, wins. Occasionally winning by way of knockdown. Does not feel fluid or fun at all. Not to mention, I found that I can (using Chivalry footwork) make a Jedi/Sith opponent miss 10, 20, 30 times in a row, but there is literally no way to take advantage of making them swing like fools. If I dodge their attack, and attempt to punish, I am immediately met with them blocking, and if they are using red style, I lose BP. Which recovers incredibly slowly, I might add.

Against multiple opponents, it feels like I'm just trying to trick one into a quick kill, or praying that they kill each other.

For those who haven't played Mount and Blade, or Chivalry: Mount and Blade is incredibly direction based, and Chivalry is incredibly timing based (Unless you have a shield, which uses a similar stamina feature to what MBII was going for, methinks).

I honestly believe the block, should only occur when using the block button, and it should only work for a short time, and if you attack while holding block as the opponent's saber connects, you should be able to stagger them slightly. The BP system should be there to keep people from swinging like idiots, and you should lose BP as you miss attacks, similar to Chivalry. I believe that would work significantly better. Either that, or make attacking expose yourself significantly more, and for longer.

Balance it like a fighting game. If I block your saber, I get +4 frame advantage, and you either block, or you eat a 4 frame faster attack than yours. Blocking and Attacking should be two separate entities in a video game, not simultaneous, and then adding stamina ontop of that. It isn't realistic enough to merit such a system.

Another issue with Saber, is the deflection is flawed in a couple of ways, giving anyone with a blaster a supreme advantage over a single Jedi/Sith target. It takes an incredibly long time for a Jedi/Sith to recover from a failed push. I'd argue 2 competent Commandos are literally impossible to beat as a Sith/Jedi. Bottom line, blasters fire waaaaaay too quickly to be balanced, and this rapid fire lends them to be incredibly strong against melee-type units *EXCEPT* Wookies/SBDs, who appear blatantly overpowered anyway.

On a side note, why is Lightning so bad? If you force push lightning a gunner, and he happened to walk at just the right time, you simply die. You can't recover fast enough to zap him, and I have instances where I manage to land the lightning push, then use the FULL force bar, and still not kill the opponent... Really quite a terrible power.



inb4 git gud u suk u must be bad, as a typical community response.

 

[Lervish]

I think the OP despite his inexperience in the game has valid and important criticism to give. The whole thread is a clear example of how difficult the game is to get into and how it could definitely do with more documentation, especially if we hope to keep growing in the future. We've received publicity due to EPVII and the Steam sales etc. but the challenge is how to keep going after the hype, and when new players keep getting downright raped on servers for hundreds of hours due to just not knowing all the abilities nor the meta play is probably not the way to go.

One thing to keep in mind though is that the game is actually a mod developed by amateurs for 13 years indeed, and during its lifespan the development team has changed countless times. This has resulted in features being developed without one clear design goal in mind over the years. For example, the current coders who have taken responsibility over the saber system have not been members of the dev team for more than a couple of years I'd assume, which means there's been a total of 10 years of development on the system before them. You can imagine what kind of a mess the saber code partly may be.

Due to the above, though, the game has become so unique and diverse in its features and gameplay which makes it different from commercial products. I'd argue there is something for every type of player. For example, personally I've never been a big fan of the duel mechanics and the duel servers are mostly an unknown aspect to me. However I've found my joy for playing Jedi/Sith from elsewhere: MB2 is essentially a team game, and the supporting role of Jedi/Sith is crucial in many gameplay situations. Rendering enemies helpless so that my teammates can kill them is very satisfying.

 

[NERO]

I don't like dueling either. Partially it's due to how much it has changed over the years and it's been hard to keep up, partially it's due to how it's not just about reflexes but also about predicting what your enemy is about to do. But I like being an assault jedi, and a support at the side. Gunning is also satisfying, especially when you're in a good flow and can manually evade most blaster fire, makes you feel like a boss. Every class has a little of something that makes them worth playing and I can never have enough time to play all of them enough.

Another tip to OP is to try out different classes with different builds and maybe see if one of them has some interesting abilities that makes playing worthwhile despite all the dying and confusion?

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Lervish is on the money. I would also say that the saber system is in good hands. Based on the internal discussions, the upcoming changes will help with some issues raised by OP, which have also been raised internally by me and others during the course of a long period of time.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Lervish is on the money. I would also say that the saber system is in good hands. Based on the internal discussions, the upcoming changes will help with some issues raised by OP, which have also been raised internally by me and others during the course of a long period of time.

My question is, would a retard like me manage to learn and figure it out. I don't have time to sit down and just play video games anymore, because I get home and im too tired for multiplayer. So the little time I do play, can I figure it out lets say 2 hours a day for 2 days a week. Would that dedication be enough for me to git gud?

Because ive been sitting here for 3 months and watching you guys say the saber system sucks and easy. Where I touched it for like a total of an hour combined over the period and was like, "what the fuck am I doing?" Now its going to get even more harder and difficult.

TLDR version, how fucked am I?

 

[PuNk]

It is true that this mod is not newbie-friendly in terms of gameplay. But honestly that is what I love about it. It is unique. It takes time to get to know the system. You don't get everything served to you on a silver platter, that's not what the mod is about. If you want things to be easy, go play counter strike or something like that...

 

[Preston]

My question is, would a retard like me manage to learn and figure it out. I don't have time to sit down and just play video games anymore, because I get home and im too tired for multiplayer. So the little time I do play, can I figure it out lets say 2 hours a day for 2 days a week. Would that dedication be enough for me to git gud?

Because ive been sitting here for 3 months and watching you guys say the saber system sucks and easy. Where I touched it for like a total of an hour combined over the period and was like, "what the fuck am I doing?" Now its going to get even more harder and difficult.

TLDR version, how fucked am I?

I could help you with sabering if youd like, just message me on steam if you ever want any help or whatever

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

My question is, would a retard like me manage to learn and figure it out. I don't have time to sit down and just play video games anymore, because I get home and im too tired for multiplayer. So the little time I do play, can I figure it out lets say 2 hours a day for 2 days a week. Would that dedication be enough for me to git gud?

Because ive been sitting here for 3 months and watching you guys say the saber system sucks and easy. Where I touched it for like a total of an hour combined over the period and was like, "what the fuck am I doing?" Now its going to get even more harder and difficult.

TLDR version, how fucked am I?

The next iteration will bring in mechanics that essentially allow intuitive players to get a moderate amount of proficiency in the system as well while not detracting from the current experience. I've been able to attend only one of the proof of concept tests for it and it was the most fun I've had dueling in 7 years (with a small exception being when me and Serath were working on a similar mechanic, but it was toned down due to community backlash before it could be finished) so that should count for something.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Uhh, I'd hate to bring this back, but how does one deal with heroes? They seem inordinately stronger than every other class, can dash through my saber, and have the tools to 1-2 shot kill anyone... and people seem to pick nothing but heroes...

Seems the closest I could get was Level 3 lightning with a saber, and hope they didn't have backup.

 

[Gumba]

you cant dash trough sabers

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

you cant dash trough sabers

So when I swung to the right, and he dashed to my right, through my saber, I was imagining things? Not to mention, they can dash backwards faster than I can run forwards, and if I land a push, they get knocked back 200 miles away, where they can safely resume attempting to quick-scope me.

 

[Supa]

There is a small window during the activation of dash where a hero is vulnerable to being pushed/pulled down.

 

[Puppytine]

So when I swung to the right, and he dashed to my right, through my saber, I was imagining things? Not to mention, they can dash backwards faster than I can run forwards, and if I land a push, they get knocked back 200 miles away, where they can safely resume attempting to quick-scope me.

Then push him to the wall, or push and let your gunners finish him, or jump on him and slash, run zig-zag to him and slash... c'mon, there's a lot ways to kill a hero with sith, it's not even overpowered.
I can only imagine your complaints when your hit clone spam doing blob spam...

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Then push him to the wall, or push and let your gunners finish him, or jump on him and slash, run zig-zag to him and slash... c'mon, there's a lot ways to kill a hero with sith, it's not even overpowered.
I can only imagine your complaints when your hit clone spam doing blob spam...

We don't appear to be playing the same game, you and I. So what you're saying is: He has to be dumb enough to get caught in a wall, you have to have backup, or some how jump on him while he's holding still, and slash him, while he is holding still... Or just run zig zag, while he's holding still, and slash while he is holding still.

The problem is not avoiding his shots, the problem is *catching* the heroes.

 

[Preston]

We don't appear to be playing the same game, you and I. So what you're saying is: He has to be dumb enough to get caught in a wall, you have to have backup, or some how jump on him while he's holding still, and slash him, while he is holding still... Or just run zig zag, while he's holding still, and slash while he is holding still.

The problem is not avoiding his shots, the problem is *catching* the heroes.

whyyyyyy... okay when a hero dashes either wait to the small window to pull/push him or push him into a wall so he cant dash backwards. It's not that hard

 

[Preston]

So when I swung to the right, and he dashed to my right, through my saber, I was imagining things? Not to mention, they can dash backwards faster than I can run forwards, and if I land a push, they get knocked back 200 miles away, where they can safely resume attempting to quick-scope me.

Cant quickscope in mb2, and pull instead of push, or push into a wall. Or wait till their dash runs out. Run them into a wall and they're stuck.

 

[Preston]

The next iteration will bring in mechanics that essentially allow intuitive players to get a moderate amount of proficiency in the system as well while not detracting from the current experience. I've been able to attend only one of the proof of concept tests for it and it was the most fun I've had dueling in 7 years (with a small exception being when me and Serath were working on a similar mechanic, but it was toned down due to community backlash before it could be finished) so that should count for something.

I can not wait for the next build, pls fix perks

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Cant quickscope in mb2, and pull instead of push, or push into a wall. Or wait till their dash runs out. Run them into a wall and they're stuck.

I'll be trying pull.

 

[NERO]

Dash has no invincibility frames and can't go through sabers. If you see something like your saber going through someone without hitting them, it's just latency playing tricks on you. The hit detection has been vastly improved and we don't even get issues like being unable to swing a knocked down enemy dead, like a few builds back.

Try to move erratically. Don't just zig zag, move around so that it's very hard to predict your movements, so the hero will have tougher time hitting you.
With push, you can try to angle the hero so that you can push him to a wall. Time your swings so that you'll hit them during the moment when they're rolling up, don't try to hit them where they fell, but where they're recovering to.

Pull is useful too. Just at level 2, you can pull the weapon off the hero's hands if he's running or midair, so he doesn't even have to be knocked down. Pull 3 knocks them down, and steals their gun as well, so even if they're able to recover, you've taken away one of their means of offense. Remember that pull only works on enemies you've got your crosshair on.

There's also a bit of recovery after each dash, so if you can predict where they're about to dash, save your swing for the moment they've dashed, and strike before they have time for another dash.

And if you're good enough at evading blaster fire, you can simply tire them out to the point where they run out of stamina and can no longer dash. But they can recover their stamina by walking (afaik).

EDIT: Heroes can faster than sith, so it can be a bit difficult to catch them. With that run speed, they've got ample time to even backpedal out of your saber's range if you're not close enough when you start your swing.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Alright, I'd say I'm far better at fighting anyone with a blaster, thanks to Nero's post. Also thanks to Yellow saber form. Still getting used to the whole saber thing. My path to getting better right now appears to be blocked by a seemingly unnecessarily difficult combo design.

Also, why is lightning 3 so terrible, and why can I not use it in conjunction with Grip? I feel as though the damage is horrendous, and the mana regen is too slow to make any decent use out of it.

I'd imagine if I kicked them to the ground, I could lightning them, but my lightning apparently did not hit them as they rolled. So instead I'd kick them to the ground, grip them, THEN lightning them, but I cannot do both...

If I'm not using it right, then what strategy should I be using? If I'm up against a Jedi, and they don't run, I feel as though I'm screwed.

 

[Hexodious]

If you have Lightning 3 + Push 3 and are in melee your Lightning button will also attempt to push the target down. If a gunner is knocked down by this you'll deal a ton of damage with Lightning.

Vs Jedi I wouldn't bother using Lightning much, they can block it with their Lightsaber or with high FP. I sometimes like to use Lightning 2 and long range hit them while they are swinging but thats about it.

For a fun Force-whore Lightning/Grip build try:

Jump3
Push3
Grip3
Lighting3
FB1

Grip the target, aim into the eye and Lightning Push for glorious map-long super pushes. Be aware this is a ''lulz'' build, I do recommend grabbing a Lightsaber for playing properly.