Perspective from a new player

[{Δ} Achilles]

So I spent a while playing the mod, I haven't played JKJA itself for quite some time, so I was highly interested in it. As a competitive Chivalry MW/DW player, for quite some time, I decided to try and apply what I've known.

(Yes, I know I'm new, however I believe my opinion does make a difference, as I do have significant experience in competitive melee-style games, and I can understand the design choices)

The blaster play, and movement is amazing, the force powers are also amazing (if weirdly imbalanced)... however the saber combat?

Feels absolutely terrible. It is difficult to even see what you're doing, or if you even have had a major effect. I used all of the styles, and it seems like Red is incredibly strong compared to the others. I'll break down the issues in as short as I can

Saber combat feels stale, and feels like a trading match where each player takes turns with a combo, and the one who did the most stamina break, wins. Occasionally winning by way of knockdown. Does not feel fluid or fun at all. Not to mention, I found that I can (using Chivalry footwork) make a Jedi/Sith opponent miss 10, 20, 30 times in a row, but there is literally no way to take advantage of making them swing like fools. If I dodge their attack, and attempt to punish, I am immediately met with them blocking, and if they are using red style, I lose BP. Which recovers incredibly slowly, I might add.

Against multiple opponents, it feels like I'm just trying to trick one into a quick kill, or praying that they kill each other.

For those who haven't played Mount and Blade, or Chivalry: Mount and Blade is incredibly direction based, and Chivalry is incredibly timing based (Unless you have a shield, which uses a similar stamina feature to what MBII was going for, methinks).

I honestly believe the block, should only occur when using the block button, and it should only work for a short time, and if you attack while holding block as the opponent's saber connects, you should be able to stagger them slightly. The BP system should be there to keep people from swinging like idiots, and you should lose BP as you miss attacks, similar to Chivalry. I believe that would work significantly better. Either that, or make attacking expose yourself significantly more, and for longer.

Balance it like a fighting game. If I block your saber, I get +4 frame advantage, and you either block, or you eat a 4 frame faster attack than yours. Blocking and Attacking should be two separate entities in a video game, not simultaneous, and then adding stamina ontop of that. It isn't realistic enough to merit such a system.

Another issue with Saber, is the deflection is flawed in a couple of ways, giving anyone with a blaster a supreme advantage over a single Jedi/Sith target. It takes an incredibly long time for a Jedi/Sith to recover from a failed push. I'd argue 2 competent Commandos are literally impossible to beat as a Sith/Jedi. Bottom line, blasters fire waaaaaay too quickly to be balanced, and this rapid fire lends them to be incredibly strong against melee-type units *EXCEPT* Wookies/SBDs, who appear blatantly overpowered anyway.

On a side note, why is Lightning so bad? If you force push lightning a gunner, and he happened to walk at just the right time, you simply die. You can't recover fast enough to zap him, and I have instances where I manage to land the lightning push, then use the FULL force bar, and still not kill the opponent... Really quite a terrible power.



inb4 git gud u suk u must be bad, as a typical community response.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

there is nothing to explain. jedi and sith are able to block anything that they would be able to block while standing still holding mouse 2 while running

thats the explanation, thats all that needs to be said

So... then... why did it not work for me, with rank 3 deflect/defense? You know... what I asked. Lag, packet loss, hacks, or am I just so bad at the game the mechanics won't even work properly for me because I'm too much of a scrub? Any reason at all?

 

[Preston]

/thread

Gg ^

 

[Sonichu]

MB2 is a flawed game for many reasons. These reasons are also the backbone of what makes it unique and why it has endured for so many years.

It's biggest flaw is how complicated and vague major mechanics are. I tell at least a few players every day that they need to bind class configuration and reload functions to a key because they aren't by default and nothing indicates these are key functions. I see endless Padawans (1) getting lit on fire and succumbing to BH poison darts because the counters are un-intuitive to a new player. These mechanics are what make the game fun but also drive new players away as they die time after time with no understanding of why.

It also features a saber system with enormous amounts of complexity and nuance. This gives the game the entire dimension of duel servers but also deters players who are coming to us from Battlefront 3 where sabering amounts to two mouse clicks and three force keys. They expect that alpha class gameplay and end up getting gunned down in spawn because they didn't put any points in saber or assumed there was passive ranged blocking from Base.

MB2 isn't Chivalry with it's point capture objectives and swing/block/parry swordplay nor is it any number of contemporary first/third person shooters. It exists in the Star Wars universe and has to attempt to balance things that would never logically exists in the same world. It's an insane juggling act. I don't disagree with you that any of the systems you mentioned are unrefined to some degree, but like any class based PVP, you will never be able to perfectly balance them for a 1 vs 1 fight in any scenario without watering down what makes them unique and losing the essence of what makes it fun.

Winning 5 vs 1 fights as a Jedi, Sith, Clone, Deka...etc do happen. Any long time MB players has seen good players wreck the other team to the point of needing to stack the player count. After 3 months, I think you have a good basic grasp of the game as an outsider looking in - but it will take time to fully appreciated the nuances of the game.

 

[andrew]

So... then... why did it not work for me, with rank 3 deflect/defense? You know... what I asked.

how am i to know? i wasnt there

you got shot by someone you didnt see? you stopped running for a second and stood idle and so didnt block? you turned too far and so your angle of deflection was outside from where they hit you?

theres nothing for me to explain

 

[Preston]

So... then... why did it not work for me, with rank 3 deflect/defense? You know... what I asked. Lag, packet loss, hacks, or am I just so bad at the game the mechanics won't even work properly for me because I'm too much of a scrub?

Yeah theres like no hacks in this game. The only hack thats pretty much even possible is a wallhack. And even that I never see anyone use. Atleast not any good players

 

[andrew]

also, defense 3 is unnecessary for any of this, as well as deflect

deflect only affects active deflection from tapping m1 while blocking, and defense 3 only affects active deflection from holding block while swinging

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

MB2 is a flawed game for many reasons. These reasons are also the backbone of what makes it unique and why it has endured for so many years.

It's biggest flaw is how complicated and vague major mechanics are. I tell at least a few players every day that they need to bind class configuration and reload functions to a key because they aren't by default and nothing indicates these are key functions. I see endless Padawans (1) getting lit on fire and succumbing to BH poison darts because the counters are un-intuitive to a new player. These mechanics are what make the game fun but also drive new players away as they die time after time with no understanding of why.

It also features a saber system with enormous amounts of complexity and nuance. This gives the game the entire dimension of duel servers but also deters players who are coming to us from Battlefront 3 where sabering amounts to two mouse clicks and three force keys. They expect that alpha class gameplay and end up getting gunned down in spawn because they didn't put any points in saber or assumed there was passive ranged blocking from Base.

MB2 isn't Chivalry with it's point capture objectives and swing/block/parry swordplay nor is it any number of contemporary first/third person shooters. It exists in the Star Wars universe and has to attempt to balance things that would never logically exists in the same world. It's an insane juggling act. I don't disagree with you that any of the systems you mentioned are unrefined to some degree, but like any class based PVP, you will never be able to perfectly balance them for a 1 vs 1 fight in any scenario without watering down what makes them unique and losing the essence of what makes it fun.

Winning 5 vs 1 fights as a Jedi, Sith, Clone, Deka...etc do happen. Any long time MB players has seen good players wreck the other team to the point of needing to stack the player count. After 3 months, I think you have a good basic grasp of the game as an outsider looking in - but it will take time to fully appreciated the nuances of the game.

And with that, my line of question is done. Thank you for clearing it up a bit better. So arguably, the only real issue with this game, is the fact that it is explained unbelievably poorly, and the community is relatively unhelpful. Whelp, that is unfortunate.

 

[Supa]

I'm here to answer questions about the game as it is now, but all you've done is argue with me about the balance of the game. :|

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

As a closing, this game *REALLY* needs an offline practice mode, especially if it wants to be that complex, and simultaneously be really bad at explaining things.

 

[Preston]

And with that, my line of question is done. Thank you for clearing it up a bit better. So arguably, the only real issue with this game, is the fact that it is explained unbelievably poorly, and the community is relatively unhelpful. Whelp, that is unfortunate.

Unhelpful? Lile 5 people have write paragraphs of information just for you, just so you can come back and blame the game and compare it to a mo a and chivalry that you are obviously soooo pro at.

 

[andrew]

I'm here to answer questions about the game as it is now, but all you've done is argue with my about the balance of the game. :|

i dont mean to be a dick, but after seeing his posts how could you expect anything else? hes constantly comparing the game to chivalry and talking about how he understands the game after only 12 hours but still hasnt realized you can block while running in that 12 hours, and then argues jedi/sith are bad because of it

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Unhelpful? Lile 5 people have write paragraphs of information just for you, just so you can come back and blame the game and compare it to a mo a and chivalry that you are obviously soooo pro at.

And 100+ people in game did little more than teamkill me when I asked questions, ignore me, or otherwise taunt/insult me, which lends itself to frustration and anger. Not to mention, half of your posts were unhelpful nonsense that could have fooled me.

 

[Supa]

*shrug* You can always have hope. When someone who has been playing this game for 13 years comes into the thread and states "I will answer your questions", I would expect them to take advantage of it to get better at the game.

 

[andrew]

And 100+ people in game did little more than teamkill me when I asked questions, ignore me, or otherwise taunt/insult me, which lends itself to frustration and anger. Not to mention, half of your posts were unhelpful nonsense that could have fooled me.

this is a small community thats been playing the game for a long time

there are a large number of helpful players, and a large number of trolls, as can be expected from literally any game

ive been consistently surprised and happy to see how kind the community has been to the large influx of new players lately

 

[Preston]

And 100+ people in game did little more than teamkill me when I asked questions, ignore me, or otherwise taunt/insult me, which lends itself to frustration and anger. Not to mention, half of your posts were unhelpful nonsense that could have fooled me.

Probabaly because 3 4ths if the population are new players just like you now?

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

i dont mean to be a dick, but after seeing his posts how could you expect anything else? hes constantly comparing the game to chivalry and talking about how he understands the game after only 12 hours but still hasnt realized you can block while running in that 12 hours, and then argues jedi/sith are bad because of it

Because obviously the mechanic wasn't working for me when I tested it *6* times, and there was nothing pertaining to it in the library. My understanding of the game was based on what was told to me, what I had witnessed, what I myself had done, and what I was able to research.

 

[Supa]

Because obviously the mechanic wasn't working for me when I tested it *6* times, and there was nothing pertaining to it in the library. My understanding of the game was based on what was told to me, what I had witnessed, what I myself had done, and what I was able to research.

Alright, what exactly are you having an issue with? It all got jumbled up in the thread.

 

[andrew]

Because obviously the mechanic wasn't working for me when I tested it *6* times, and there was nothing pertaining to it in the library. My understanding of the game was based on what was told to me, what I had witnessed, what I myself had done, and what I was able to research.

this is very difficult to respond to

its automatically done by the game as a core mechanic and this game has no guns that bypass block outside of a FA only weapon

it follows the same exact mechanic as the singleplayer game as well

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Alright, what exactly are you having an issue with? It all got jumbled up in the thread.

When I was running, looking at a clone, full FP, with saber deflect 3, and defense 3 (Although they say it doesn't matter), it only deflected 3/10 shots. Every time I ran, the deflect wouldn't work passively, so I ended up having to approach clones by just holding block, which was highly ineffective.

 

[andrew]

you only need defense 2

did the clone use a concussive blast to knock you down?