Perspective from a new player

[{Δ} Achilles]

So I spent a while playing the mod, I haven't played JKJA itself for quite some time, so I was highly interested in it. As a competitive Chivalry MW/DW player, for quite some time, I decided to try and apply what I've known.

(Yes, I know I'm new, however I believe my opinion does make a difference, as I do have significant experience in competitive melee-style games, and I can understand the design choices)

The blaster play, and movement is amazing, the force powers are also amazing (if weirdly imbalanced)... however the saber combat?

Feels absolutely terrible. It is difficult to even see what you're doing, or if you even have had a major effect. I used all of the styles, and it seems like Red is incredibly strong compared to the others. I'll break down the issues in as short as I can

Saber combat feels stale, and feels like a trading match where each player takes turns with a combo, and the one who did the most stamina break, wins. Occasionally winning by way of knockdown. Does not feel fluid or fun at all. Not to mention, I found that I can (using Chivalry footwork) make a Jedi/Sith opponent miss 10, 20, 30 times in a row, but there is literally no way to take advantage of making them swing like fools. If I dodge their attack, and attempt to punish, I am immediately met with them blocking, and if they are using red style, I lose BP. Which recovers incredibly slowly, I might add.

Against multiple opponents, it feels like I'm just trying to trick one into a quick kill, or praying that they kill each other.

For those who haven't played Mount and Blade, or Chivalry: Mount and Blade is incredibly direction based, and Chivalry is incredibly timing based (Unless you have a shield, which uses a similar stamina feature to what MBII was going for, methinks).

I honestly believe the block, should only occur when using the block button, and it should only work for a short time, and if you attack while holding block as the opponent's saber connects, you should be able to stagger them slightly. The BP system should be there to keep people from swinging like idiots, and you should lose BP as you miss attacks, similar to Chivalry. I believe that would work significantly better. Either that, or make attacking expose yourself significantly more, and for longer.

Balance it like a fighting game. If I block your saber, I get +4 frame advantage, and you either block, or you eat a 4 frame faster attack than yours. Blocking and Attacking should be two separate entities in a video game, not simultaneous, and then adding stamina ontop of that. It isn't realistic enough to merit such a system.

Another issue with Saber, is the deflection is flawed in a couple of ways, giving anyone with a blaster a supreme advantage over a single Jedi/Sith target. It takes an incredibly long time for a Jedi/Sith to recover from a failed push. I'd argue 2 competent Commandos are literally impossible to beat as a Sith/Jedi. Bottom line, blasters fire waaaaaay too quickly to be balanced, and this rapid fire lends them to be incredibly strong against melee-type units *EXCEPT* Wookies/SBDs, who appear blatantly overpowered anyway.

On a side note, why is Lightning so bad? If you force push lightning a gunner, and he happened to walk at just the right time, you simply die. You can't recover fast enough to zap him, and I have instances where I manage to land the lightning push, then use the FULL force bar, and still not kill the opponent... Really quite a terrible power.



inb4 git gud u suk u must be bad, as a typical community response.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Blue is good against low health targets like soldiers, not wookiees. It's fast, but does low damage, and because swings bounce off a wookiee it isn't efficient to use against them.

Jesus, the saber *bounces* off? Why? What is the reasoning for that?

You can strafe side to side and avoid a good amount of unnecessary FP damage. It should come as no surprise that if you run straight at a gunner and the gunner is actually hitting that they'll effectively drain your FP faster.

I picked that up fairly early on, even though it takes 10 years to reach them, which is probably why it took some people 10 years to learn the game, they were busy deflecting shots.

Additionally, lower rate of fire weapons deal more FP damage than higher rate of fire weapons. For example pistol 3, EE-3 (although higher rate of fire has high spread so is within the same concept of weapon), T-21 primary, A-280 and E-11 primary deal more force damage than clone rifle and E-11 secondary fire. If you're losing a good deal of FP against a single gunner than you need to really question whether you want to commit to the kill or not.

It isn't the FP drain that bothers me, it is the rate of fire, and the window of opportunity it presents. ONE Gunner can pin down a jedi, and if the Jedi swings or uses a power, he simply dies immediately. Let alone a blob of 8 or more....

I'm perfectly fine with 2-3 gunners at a distance taking down a Jedi/Sith...however the rate of fire is just waaaaay too forgiving and ridiculous.

We aren't going to balance a class against 1 vs many. The numbers advantage is always dictated by the side that has more on it, not less.

Yet in Chivalry, I have managed to kill 7 players, with every weapon in the game, simultaneously, because I am better than all 7 of them combined, and know how to fight multiple opponents. Granted I can't do it 100% of the time, and I can't do it against players near my level of skill.

 

[Preston]

And again as I said, you can use yellow style with its reach and out maneuver the wookie without taking a single hp drain

 

[Preston]

Jesus, the saber *bounces* off? Why? What is the reasoning for that?



I picked that up fairly early on, even though it takes 10 years to reach them, which is probably why it took some people 10 years to learn the game, they were busy deflecting shots.



It isn't the FP drain that bothers me, it is the rate of fire, and the window of opportunity it presents. ONE Gunner can pin down a jedi, and if the Jedi swings or uses a power, he simply dies immediately. Let alone a blob of 8 or more....

I'm perfectly fine with 2-3 gunners at a distance taking down a Jedi/Sith...however the rate of fire is just waaaaay too forgiving and ridiculous.



Yet in Chivalry, I have managed to kill 7 players, with every weapon in the game, simultaneously, because I am better than all 7 of them combined, and know how to fight multiple opponents. Granted I can't do it 100% of the time, and I can't do it against players near my level of skill.

Its the exact same with mb2.... /if you are good enough you can win 5v1. I said this earlier

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Droidekas discharge knockdowns any jedi mid jump. and at that point you are a free kill. Vs gunners, try running around them untill they have to reload. Or you can use flying kick by holding use button + special 2. Or deflect if you are feeling fancy. In a 2v1 scenario you have to pressure one of them, or retreat and fight them from behind a wall or whit an ally.

Oh, I just used a Chiv tactic and baited them into using their discharge prematurely, then jumped over them.

My rule for fighting gunners is. If he walks and stands still, try a jump kick. If hes crouching go for a swing kill. If he runs, you have force. Alternative for walking can be lightening or grip.

Thank you, because I didn't know how that one was possible, and no one would tell me how to dodge roll/jump kick.

Blue and cyan have the weakest damage output due to fast swings. Id not like to fight a wookie whit it.

Why doesn't the Saber then stagger on hit?

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Its the exact same with mb2.... /if you are good enough you can win 5v1. I said this earlier

I don't see how, since the combat appears to be centered around a meter, and perfect blocking 3 directions appears to be next to impossible.

Although, I did manage to win a 3v1 against some Jedi as Saber-Staff Maul, by using some Chivalry tricks, like walking away during the fight slowly, and baiting them into attacking me, then swiftly dodging around them, and slashing them. However, the last one broke my BP, because it does not appear to regenerate...

 

[Supa]

Jesus, the saber *bounces* off? Why? What is the reasoning for that?

Because it was too easy to kill high health targets if swings went clean through the target. It was a balance decision, and one I agree with.

I picked that up fairly early on, even though it takes 10 years to reach them, which is probably why it took some people 10 years to learn the game, they were busy deflecting shots.

Deflect is effective if you're sitting back and deflecting, it isn't that great if you're using it to approach ranged classes with. If your intention is to approach a ranged class, you shouldn't go deflect, and should strafe side to side to avoid taking unnecessary damage.

Deflect is probably one of the few tools in this game I can say with certainty defines a Jedi or Sith as a support.

It isn't the FP drain that bothers me, it is the rate of fire, and the window of opportunity it presents. ONE Gunner can pin down a jedi, and if the Jedi swings or uses a power, he simply dies immediately. Let alone a blob of 8 or more....

So don't swing. It's common sense. You swing, you get hit, you take damage, you die. You have tools to displace, you have to learn to use them effectively. We aren't going to go out of our way to make a disadvantage less disadvantageous for a class. It makes no sense.

I'm perfectly fine with 2-3 gunners at a distance taking down a Jedi/Sith...however the rate of fire is just waaaaay too forgiving and ridiculous.

And this is where the team aspect of the game comes into play. If you're alone against 2-3 gunners, you aren't with your team. That's a problem.

Even having played this game for over a decade I find myself hard pressed to kill multiple people in 1 vs many scenarios. Doesn't matter how good or experienced you are, the numbers game always favors the side with more numbers.

Yet in Chivalry, I have managed to kill 7 players, with every weapon in the game, simultaneously, because I am better than all 7 of them combined, and know how to fight multiple opponents. Granted I can't do it 100% of the time, and I can't do it against players near my level of skill.

Movie Battles 2 isn't Chivalry. And what I mean by this is, you may be good at Chivalry, but Movie Battles 2 has a completely different dynamic.

 

[andrew]

because it does not appear to regenerate

it absolutely does, when walking or blocking

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Because it was too easy to kill high health targets if swings went clean through the target. It was a balance decision, and one I agree with.

So then add stagger? To prevent them from just attacking through your attack?

Deflect is effective if you're sitting back and deflecting, it isn't that great if you're using it to approach ranged classes with. If your intention is to approach a ranged class, you shouldn't go deflect, and should strafe side to side to avoid taking unnecessary damage.

So... if I want to get close to a ranged class, I need to run and hope I don't get hit?

Deflect is probably one of the few tools in this game I can say with certainty defines a Jedi or Sith as a support.

Why would they be considered support? I thought the game was balanced... is this a MOBA now?

So don't swing. It's common sense. You swing, you get hit, you take damage, you die. You have tools to displace, you have to learn to use them effectively. We aren't going to go out of our way to make a disadvantage less disadvantageous for a class. It makes no sense.

Making a disadvantage less disadvantageous is also called 'buffing', and is generally useful if that disadvantage is too large, which everyone I talked to in the actual game, said it was, yet you, say it isn't. So I don't know if it is, or isn't. I personally found it *far* easier to kill Jedi/Sith as a commando/Droideka.

And this is where the team aspect of the game comes into play. If you're alone against 2-3 gunners, you aren't with your team. That's a problem.

So... this is Dota?

Movie Battles 2 isn't Chivalry.

Right, its Dota. Individual skill < Team

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

it absolutely does, when walking or blocking

Ah, okay,

 

[andrew]

mb2 is an objective based team shooting game with the added jedi/sith class

jedi is most powerfully played as a support class in open mode and scrims, but it also extremely effective played solo

 

[Preston]

So then add stagger? To prevent them from just attacking through your attack?



So... if I want to get close to a ranged class, I need to run and hope I don't get hit?



Why would they be considered support? I thought the game was balanced... is this a MOBA now?



Making a disadvantage less disadvantageous is also called 'buffing', and is generally useful if that disadvantage is too large, which everyone I talked to in the actual game, said it was, yet you, say it isn't. So I don't know if it is, or isn't. I personally found it *far* easier to kill Jedi/Sith as a commando/Droideka.



So... this is Dota?



Right, its Dota. Individual skill < Team

The ignorance hurts me, help some1 pls

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

The ignorance hurts me, help some1 pls

So form an argument, using the English language, and tell me why I'm wrong please. Believe me, I want to be wrong.

But that is what is confusing. Someone tells me a good player can kill 5 people by himself. Someone else tells me 2>1, then another tells me 2 clone commandos are impossible to kill as a Sith, no matter how good you are.... what is it? Is it Dota, or not Dota?

 

[Preston]

So form an argument, using the English language, and tell me why I'm wrong please. Believe me, I want to be wrong.

But that is what is confusing. Someone tells me a good player can kill 5 people by himself. Someone else tells me 2>1, then another tells me 2 clone commandos are impossible to kill as a Sith, no matter how good you are.... what is it? Is it Dota, or not Dota?

2 is always better than one obviously. Yet a player who is good can kill 5 by himself. how is that hard to comprehend.

 

[Supa]

So then add stagger? To prevent them from just attacking through your attack?

You want us to add a stagger so a class can't attack you while you're open?

So... if I want to get close to a ranged class, I need to run and hope I don't get hit?

You need to run, period. If you're holding block and walking at someone you're a far easier target to hit than you would be if you were strafing side to side. As I explained, if you have deflect, you shouldn't expect to be approaching gunners and trying to deflect at the same time.

Why would they be considered support? I thought the game was balanced... is this a MOBA now?

Because they have abilities that provide heavy team support. Push, pull, deflect, general distraction. They make a good front line class, but they excel at support, although they aren't designated that way.

Making a disadvantage less disadvantageous is also called 'buffing', and is generally useful if that disadvantage is too large, which everyone I talked to in the actual game, said it was, yet you, say it isn't.

Okay, well we aren't going to buff Jedi and Sith so they can tank more damage than they already do, without compensating for something else. You're taking the risk of trying to swing at a gunner that isn't incapacitated in someway, despite all of the tools that Jedi and Sith have to do it.

So... this is Dota?

No, but the "team" concept is present. Movie Battles is first and foremost a team-based game. If we didn't want it to be a team-based game, we would have made it free-for-all.

Right, its Dota. Individual skill < Team

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. If you're individually skilled and you're with your team you'll have a better chance of you and them surviving and completing the objective of the map.

 

[andrew]

So form an argument, using the English language, and tell me why I'm wrong please. Believe me, I want to be wrong.

he might have been rude, but to explain why you're wrong we have to explain the basic gameplay mechanics

thats actually a valid criticism of mb2, its actually very difficult for new players and the team has done quite a bit to make it better. the library is fantastic, and the pblock/body hit indicators go a long way towards helping new players learn.

but its difficult in this situation to communicate this to you because you're very confident about your understanding of mb2 and its mechanics despite not knowing them. you have to keep asking more direct questions so we can explain things, but its kinda upsetting when someone like supa tries very hard to level with you and you just start going "is this dota? dota?"

 

[andrew]

also i get this very odd feeling based off the way achilles phrased that previous post, so ill clarify this at the risk of sounding stupid

you can deflect blaster fire while running as long as you have FP

 

[FilthyHomelessMan]

Right, its Dota. Individual skill < Team[/QUOTE]
I'm hanging myself tonight, you obviously must be a troll or something because I've never seen a worse argument that a game is flawed..

 

[Preston]

I don't see how, since the combat appears to be centered around a meter, and perfect blocking 3 directions appears to be next to impossible.

Although, I did manage to win a 3v1 against some Jedi as Saber-Staff Maul, by using some Chivalry tricks, like walking away during the fight slowly, and baiting them into attacking me, then swiftly dodging around them, and slashing them. However, the last one broke my BP, because it does not appear to regenerate...

oh man, first of all, there are 7 directions to pblock. And it is not even close to impossible. I can pblock atleast 75% of someones swings if they are a decent player and were on a dueling server. And someone who is more experience with dueling could pblock like idk 90%?

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

You want us to add a stagger so a class can't attack you while you're open?

No, I want them to hit me while I'm open. As in, WHEN I'M OPEN. When I swung, and missed, I want them to hit me, sith, jedi, wookie, or gunner. However, that isn't the case. I want stagger so they can't just walk through an attack and hit me. That is a basic mechanic prevalent in just about every game featuring melee.

You need to run, period. If you're holding block and walking at someone you're a far easier target to hit than you would be if you were strafing side to side. As I explained, if you have deflect, you shouldn't expect to be approaching gunners and trying to deflect at the same time.

I tried that the moment I began playing, by running and attempting to dodge, but the Jedi does not deflect passively, so by running, I can easily get hit, and killed. Not to mention, manually dodging (Something I got good at in Chivalry) is somewhat ineffective without a proper reload on things like Droideka.

Because they have abilities that provide heavy team support. Push, pull, deflect, general distraction. They make a good front line class, but they excel at support, although they aren't designated that way.

Alright, fair enough.

Okay, well we aren't going to buff Jedi and Sith so they can tank more damage than they already do, without compensating for something else. You're taking the risk of trying to swing at a gunner that isn't incapacitated in someway, despite all of the tools that Jedi and Sith have to do it.

It isn't about buffing the Jedi/Sith to be tanky, it is about *nerfing* the rate of fire on Gunners, so that it takes more skill to aim shots, rather than spraying everywhere like a buffoon. If you swing at a gunner now, he doesn't even have to let go of the trigger, and you are shot 2-3 times. Rather, it should be a timing aspect, where the gunner shot, he has 0.5 seconds or so before his next shot (Again, movie blaster fire rate), so you can hit him inbetween his shots, or he can save a shot, and if you mistime your swing, he can insta-kill you with a point blank shot. However, at the time being, they just spray everywhere, and it is rather annoying. Less of a buff to Jedi/Sith, more of a nerf to the ease of gunners. Slow the fire rates.

No, but the "team" concept is present. Movie Battles is first and foremost a team-based game. If we didn't want it to be a team-based game, we would have made it free-for-all.

That argument doesn't really work. Yes, team should always be a factor. However to quote Chivalry, once again, they have a game mode called 'Last Team Standing', which has no respawn. If you die, you die for good. I have managed to bring back games by killing an entire team by myself. That capability *should* be present in MBII. However with 10,000 grenades flying everywhere, and concussion blasts that are nearly impossible to read, and jedi to boot, it doesn't appear very possible.

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. If you're individually skilled and you're with your team you'll have a better chance of you and them surviving and completing the objective of the map.

Obviously, but that isn't what I was going for in that argument.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

oh man, first of all, there are 7 directions to pblock. And it is not even close to impossible. I can pblock atleast 75% of someones swings if they are a decent player and were on a dueling server. And someone who is more experience with dueling could pblock like idk 90%?

Pblocking 3 directions at once? How is that even possible, exactly?