My honest opinion, and my humble suggestion.

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by Oink Oink ?, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

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    @Oink Oink ?

    I just wanted to say thank you for being a diamond in the rough with things happening lately. I have read everything you have said thus far in this thread and really appreciate all of the honest, good criticism present without resorting to attacking. Thank you. Other devs have already covered my feelings so I won't reiterate them.

    You do realize that several of the things you listed before this statement are some of the things I have been fighting for years to bring into open right? Who was one of the main people working to get spy class going back in the day with cloaking, seeker drones, etc? Oh right, me. Who has been fighting recently to get things like absorb, protect, etc into open mode? Oh right, me. Who recently very clearly stated on the design concepts for new classes that they are boring and contain too many existing features and need more unique things? Oh right, me. Who was trying to get other unfinished things another chance like Cryoban grenades and even added it to the roadmap? Oh right, me. Who is the one constantly fighting to work on new classes and new class abilities for all classes to expand open mode? Oh right, me.

    Who said it was okay for duel mode to see increased timer, and the community got it? Oh right, me. Who has been fighting for different, possibly longer, timers for the new game modes: CTF, Conquest, possibly up to 12 minutes for a round. Oh right, me. Who literally requested coders to remove the time limit entirely for tutorial maps, and is one of the check marked things on the roadmap? Oh right, me. Just because I want open mode time limit to remain fixed because it is a part the over all core game rules doesn't mean the same thing as you keep saying it means.

    Ask other developers how often I voice my opinion on gameplay or game design in actual development. I can tell you that it isnt very often. I often just make passing comments unless it is something I feel really strongly about, which isn't many things at all. If you really think gameplay hasn't gone the way you want it to, you really need to be worrying about people other than me. I voice my general "new classes, new abilities, new things, less saber system" all the time. Other than that I really don't talk much about things at all.

    Ask any developer, and they will tell you that all of this is true.

    I miss having your feedback more frequently dude. You were one of the people that were really useful to have around, at least for me.
     
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  2. Oink Oink ?

    Oink Oink ?

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    I must admit that upon reading this I didn't know your situation (having been absent as of late). But reading through some of your responses to people voicing their very harsh and immature language (almost more often than their opinions) was not a pleasant read. A good developer and a voice of the community does not deserve to be treated this way. No one deserves to be treated this way.

    There is a fine line, or at least there should be, between criticism and respect and criticism and disrespect. Some of these people are way beyond that line and should re-evaluate their contribution to the community. Voicing their harsh opinion with even harsher language is not contributing to a better outcome. It's creating a toxic atmosphere in where others will unfortunately often follow. Do we really want this for a tiny, but motivated community of fans? Or do we want some respect and fun? For what are we really without these things?

    Thank you for your passion, and please continue the good work!
     
  3. FRANK LAMPART

    FRANK LAMPART

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    Yes, but that's because veteran players have experienced previous patches, whereas newer players have not. So obviously you're going to hear more from veteran players because they've experienced, what they think at least, better patches. It's not always down to "nostalgia".

    Progress is subjective. Rolling out bad patches and map updates is not, in my eyes, "progress". Sometimes the old ways are best and it doesn't hurt to listen to the community. You can't just roll out patches just for the sake of it, making progress. You don't need to fix what is not broken. Of course bring in new content. Nothing wrong with that.

    In my honest opinion I think we hit our sweet spot with 1.3. I speak to a lot of people who agree with this, in-game, discord, forums, etc.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
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  4. SeV

    SeV Internal Beta Team

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    I might just do that. I've already looked at tempests saber stuff and it looks decent. Have yet to test anything though. I assume the changes you're talking about are open mode? I haven't been able to find any records of changes other than tempests stuff from oct 2. Guess I will keep up with the beta forums for a few weeks and see what's happening since I've already been been absent for nearly 6 months.

    And in response to the oink oink mace circle jerk. Respect has to be earned, although I also disapprove of the way mace has been flamed and attacked lately, it really doesn't change the fact that respect has to be earned and people are allowed to say they don't like new dotf and other maps, when they don't like them. However, it certainly doesn't help the situation when you personally attack devs instead of their work. I also think mace can get slightly too emotional and sensitive when it comes to taking criticism, esp when he is facing the trolls. And we all know that you don't feed the trolls and you don't show weakness to the trolls and you don't give an inch. You just keep soldiering on and doing your thing, get a thick skin and look at the criticisms as objectively as you can without giving in to your impulsive emotional responses first. Baby flailing on either side is ridiculous and it can not only be blamed on the 'bad' community.
     
  5. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Both sabering (separate developments from tempest, although a few points do coincide) and open mode.

    It seems pretty clear to me at this point that v1.3 and v1.0 both were the most liked sabering builds, so i feel it's time to resolve this issue already and develop an iteration whose design is based on those two.
     
  6. Shilling

    Shilling Internal Beta Team

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    no one cares you're not a vet
     
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  7. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

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    One of the biggest things though is people thinking something isn't broken simply because its fun/exciting for them to do/use/play. Sure, I could give myself a tactical dev nuke that kills everyone on the enemy team and I win the round. That is fun for me, but it is definitely broken. The same applies to several of the features we've changed/modified since 1.3. A good chunk of them were objectively (not subjectively) broken if you thought about them and that is why we changed some of them.

    A good chunk of the a arguments I have seen for bringing back back certain things is that it was fun/exciting. Not that it was necessarily good or bad for the mod in general. There is more to things than just "is it fun to use" as there is also "is it fun to be on the receiving end of". There are many things that are/were really fun for the user, but man the receiving end was the most frustrating thing in existence.
     
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  8. SeV

    SeV Internal Beta Team

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    Could you be any more vague and strawmanny? Also, who decides what is good and what is bad for the mod? The devs? How has that worked out for you since 1.3?
     
  9. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

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    What you want me to literally list tons of examples in order for my argument to not be a strawman? I have to go into explicit detail on everything, but you can insult me out of the get go and say that I'm part of the problem with zero information to back up your claims. Holy fallacy fallacy hypocrisy. I love how you are not held to your own standards when making an argument. The double standard is.... woooowww.

    Gunner V Jedi saberists perks were inherently bad for the mod in the state they were in. It was really easy for a jedi/sith to use and abuse, where as a gunner would have to pay attention to a lot more subtle cues (as running, blocking, and other anims are shared across styles) in order to determine what specific perk they were dealing with, when a jedi/sith could also instantly switch that perk on a moments notice. It was fun for the Jedi/Sith. Not fun at all to be on the receiving end of. Without a massive amount of work in animations and coding that we were not capable of doing at the time to even make them remotely capable of actually working, they were removed. They were bad, and a complete over complication of an interaction that should be relatively straight forward.

    Multiple people agreed on that (even achilles), that saber vs gunner perks as they stood in 1.3 were really bad for the mod but there are still people who stand by that system because they mostly played jedi/sith and it was fun/exciting to be able to adapt to anything on the fly.
     
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  10. SeV

    SeV Internal Beta Team

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    I guess we have two different perceptions of reality, because what you just wrote in the above quote is another strawman, or I guess just outright delusional fabrication. Prone to projection, perhaps?

    What about this is an argument or an insult? "Could you be any more vague and strawmanny? Also, who decides what is good and what is bad for the mod? The devs? How has that worked out for you since 1.3?"

    I haven't insulted you, now have I? We can remedy that shortly. I guess merely stating my opinion is an insult to you because you have a know-it-all god emperor complex of some kind, which I think is part of the problem because you devs keep changing the game and the maps, quite often going against what the players want. I actually wrote a long reply with details, listing many things you got wrong over the years (imo) but figured it was too much for the mad anus to handle so I deleted it and just kept the comment to a succinct meme about 1.3. Even if you ask for me to write up a list now, it would be a waste of time, because I've already stated those things numerous times over the years.

    I mostly agree on 1.3 perks, they were very badly designed. You bringing that up is that supposed to be an example of anything? Perhaps I should've used a better open mode patch than 1.3 as an example, but I forgot you had no idea about dueling and only focused on open mode. You seem to have gotten my point though, seeing as how enraged and personally insulted you felt.

    Frankly, my first post about your circle jerk and patting yourself on the back with oink oink seems relevant still. stop being so emotional and egotistical.

    Not gonna waste any more time on the forums for now, so go ahead and strawman fallacy hypocrisy sim-salabim me all you want. Whatever makes you feel good. That's the important part, isn't it? Because god forbid someone would give you negative feedback on anything you were involved in, thus making you feel uncomfortable. We best just all congratulate each other on how far MB2 has come over the years and how much better and more fun teh mod is now than in the past. That'll surely get us somewhere.

    Yeah, no. I tried for years to give cordial feedback, but I'm ending up feeling like achilles because of your boneheaded attitude. I don't really care to sugarcoat my words with you or any of the other devs any longer, because I have given up on MB2 and am just keeping an eye on it to see what happens. And just a pro-tip for later, stop perceiving criticism of your work as personal insults. It's very toddler-like behavior lol.
     
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  11. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    Find me someone other than you in the dueling community who agrees that swingblocks should deal more BP damage than non-swingblocks. Maybe not everything you believe is all that great either. In any case plz let's stop wasting time on drama because these days, like you, i've had more than enough of all this saber system crap so i would like to go all out and focus on making the v1.3 ideal as it was truly meant to be so that we can finally have next level gameplay enjoyable in the long-term, which represents a fuckton of brainstorming and code work before even getting to a testing phase.
     
  12. MaceMadunusus

    MaceMadunusus Level Designer Movie Battles II Team

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    And this ladies and gentlemen, is what we have to deal with.

    Saying that his previous comment wasn't insulting, proceeds to say the same thing, in slightly more hostile words, is now suddenly insulting. I was talking about your comment that I had previously quoted earlier, not the most recent comment you made. Should have been obvious. I wasn't talking about your questions being an insult.

    I literally proved how your initial statement about my god-emperor game design complex was wrong. And you're still on that. Nice.

    How many times do I have to admit not getting things right with dotf, or other maps, and that I'm working on it, before people stop thinking that crap?

    Oink oink is giving negative feedback about the mod. He literally says he doesn't like what I did towards dotf, but he wasn't an ass about it. Unlike yourself.
     
  13. pelmeņu lauks

    pelmeņu lauks

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    We are the spark, that will light the fire that will burn MaceMandusnus down
     
  14. Chaos the Chaotic

    Chaos the Chaotic Nerd

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    Newer doesn't always mean better and veterans of the mod are nostalgic for a number of reasons.

    The primary 2 are the fun they had and the gameplay they experienced. People that played for over a decade have experience with various versions, builds, mechanics that others simply don't. That includes even some devs, current and past.

    It's beyond stupid to dismiss that experience as irrelevant. Your elders know shit. Accept it or get smacked down like a bad step-child.

    The real problems are the same problems everyone has. And that....is people. Differing belief's conflict. And when pride and ego cannot be set aside, dysfunction wins the day.

    Graphics and other superfluous shit can always be improved but, yes, to some, the older versions had better game mechanics and balance. And they possessed two traits that struck gold for awhile until it was mined out to its current skeletal remains. Skillful and fun. Repeat those 2 words.

    Progress for the sake of progress is just an opportunity to fuck things up and regress in a different direction. Not backwards, but off the trail, lost in the wilderness, suddenly a mountain goat jumps on your back and it's a biter. You wrestle it to the ground and suddenly you're shirtless.

    And that's how I met your....what?

    The path ahead ideally would be to take what worked, what was fun, and recreate, improve and build upon it as well as trying out new ideas, or at this point, old ideas that have been delayed, stonewalled or abused like Mace.

    But the same problem remains.

    People. Those in charge and then those at large with big mouths that presume to speak for the betterment but really for the ill.

    So really, we need to think of a real, final, Final Solution for that. t(-_-)t

    Mb will continue on as it is. Dancing the black spiral through the abyss.
     
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  15. FrenzY

    FrenzY Internal Beta Leader Movie Battles II Team

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    Angry, ungrateful, entitled and egotistical are how a lot of the extra vocal 'forum vets' are these days (apparently if you played 1.3 you're a vet?). Especially past beta testers, but also vets who applied and were not accepted because they have terrible attitudes. Not naming names.

    Stop being so damn negative towards the people who built these things for you. A lot of the changes people request enough happen, but if you expect them to somehow be faster if you complain and talk shit, think again. If you expect every thing you suggest to happen, think again. This whole thing is a process, be glad we listen at all. Be grateful we continue even though we hear crap every-other-day from someone.

    >.>
    *lights deathstick and walks out door*
     
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  16. Def!led

    Def!led Internal Beta Team

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    At this point, if you started before RC1, you have been playing for 10+ years and that should qualify anyone as a veteran.

    I mean do you ever post constructive criticism?
    I hope you add more to the beta team than one-liners like this.

    As for the discussion you can see a couple of good posts here
    Tempest's Saber Build
    Tempest's Saber Build
    Tempest's Saber Build

    I'm not going to create another wall of text explaining what's currently wrong and how it can be fixed, but I will link a post including my thoughts on the subject.

    Tempest's Saber Build
    AND
    Tempest's Saber Build
     
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  17. Liniyka_xddd

    Liniyka_xddd

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    I think Mace or some other dev mentioned that the mod should rather be fun and unbalanced than balanced and not fun.

    If that's the case, I think bringing back 1.3 would really be a good option. Why? Because almost every class was overpowered back then. Let's take a look:

    Sold - OP. 3 lives, E11 and close combat 2 allowed sold to be incredibly versatile and hard to get rid of, which made it one of the most solid classes to play.

    Commander - ok. Unless grouped up with good sold players, comm/et wasn't actually op in 1.3. Definitely a solid pick with good guns and some utility in the form of grenades, but nowhere near OP.

    Clone - OP. Do I really need to explain? The clone has barely changed and still remains to be one of the most OP classes in the game due to having many strengths and few weaknesses.

    Hero - OP. P3 (the motherfucking handcannon), proj rifle (the motherfucking shotgun) and dash (3/4 dashes in a row) made hero incredibly dangerous and hard to pin down. Seeing 1/3-1/2 of your team go hero was a common occurrence in 1.3.

    Wookiee - OP. The default str3 health3 bow2 build was a fucking juggernaut. Having tons of HP, being immune to all disabling effects and having the firepower of caster2, wookiee could punch through any defenses if played right.

    ARC - bad. ARC was actually one of the worst classes in the mod in 1.3 in my opinion. Poor guns, very high point costs for abilities and tools that were only useful in very specific situations (rockets and EMPs). ARC-fu or not, you were gonna die.

    Bounty hunter - OP. P3 + proj + darts + melee moves = come at me bro. Similarly to hero, a class with very powerful weapons and the highest movespeed in the game (not counting the deka) which made it very hard to pin down.

    Manda - OP. The mini-proj (ee3) + jetpack made sure that this guy could rotate all around the map in seconds, destroying everyone with his snipes (granted he could actually aim). They also had a very interesting matchup with jedi, where they had to land 2 snipes or 1 midair snipe to win.

    SBD - OP. You know what's up with SBD. The sheer tankiness ensured that with a little help, this class could hold entire teams at bay.

    Deka - OP (on certain maps like DotF). If the map was right, deka was a menace. Tanky and fast, this bad boy could fuck your entire team up with a good flank, or just play safe and suppress the hell out of you in long hallways.

    Jedi/Sith - hella OP. Do I even need to say anything? Damage resistance, swingblock, good force powers with rapid FP regen, all the various style perks etc etc. An incredibly powerful class even in the hands of a noob.


    So, this is how it was, right? Almost everything was OP. But at the same time, it was also fun for everyone. It reminds me of Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 multiplayer, if you ever played that. It had an insane amount of outright unbalanced and broken shit, but it was the most fun I've had in any CoD game.

    Soooooo..... Make everything op plz thx
     
  18. foggy

    foggy

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    it was a joke
    Same with dueling, every style was uniquely OP and fun to play. Chainsaw blue, club-liek red, moderate yellow
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  19. Def!led

    Def!led Internal Beta Team

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    Jokes are always well received through text on the internet. Not to mention there's no smiley faces or "jk" at the end of it to clarify if it really was one.
     
  20. foggy

    foggy

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    he is a fucking clown what do you expect)))
     
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