My honest opinion, and my humble suggestion.

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by Oink Oink ?, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. Oink Oink ?

    Oink Oink ?

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    Hey. My in-game nick has been "Oink Oink?" for quite some time, but I've had many names throughout the MBII era. I've been a member since B16 (or '17, I fail to remember exactly), giving me quite a few years under my belt. And maybe a slight authority to speak for fallen veterans of the MOD.

    I'm going to keep this brief, because I do enough writing as a student already. What I write is just my honest opinion, followed by my humble suggestion, and either take it or leave it. I feel like the DEVs of this MOD has given up receiving criticism from the older players because of the good ol' "the older was better" mentality that is so often present. And I am no exception, unfortunately. But it's not because of nostalgia. It's simply got to do with repeat fun, entertainment values and gameplay.

    MY HONEST OPINION
    You're dragging the MOD through mud, and have been doing so for quite a few patches now. I would say since 2016 is when it turned into a shitshow of bad ideas - some completely altered and/or removed the patch after, and some a glooming shadow of a feature they once were, either bad to better (but not good, I would say about most), but mostly bad to worse, or worse to functioning.

    Now I'm done giving the DEVs a hard time, because you guys are the wood and the leafs and the cobble stones making the fire possible - whilst we are the fire, keeping the game alive and populated. But not so much any more. I remember when people used to say "MBII is dying", but it never died. We all just kinda laughed when newbies said it, or some raging bulldog who just simply couldn't aim. But as time is full of irony we can confirm that the fire is indeed extinguishing, and the population that always slightly grew or was kept mostly intact (old players replaced by newer ones) is diminishing.

    The fault of this, I sincerely believe, is not due to criticism of the newer Star Wars films or that school has become tougher - these things were still present when the MOD first launched (the prequels, anyone?). And school has been a bitch since the 70's with increasing demands ever since. It's not because we have fun games like EA's Battlefront (sarcasm is strong) or because less and less care about Star Wars. It's all got to do with the chaotic development process that has been present for two-three years now, and the complete middle-finger to the old (be it old, populated maps (DOTF and Lunar) - relatively working, simple and rarely complained-about saber mechanicms, but also importantly neglecting the suggestions and complaints from veterans that helped grow the MOD into what it has become (or at least was) - players that should definitely be heard during times of great change.

    MY "HUMBLE" SUGGESTION
    Go back to RC1/RC2/RC3. Take the most working, efficient build and code of either one (if not all) of these three patches, and mash in the upgraded animations from newer builds, along with whatever functions that might have come later that is rather heavily community-approved (fire grenades, conc nades, gunner-tweaks, fp damage and bugfixes).

    Wherever I turn my nose - almost whomever veteran I ever talk to - unify in the belief that this is when things turned stable, strong and working for the MOD. I know of very few that did not like this period of time for MBII - and not because of nostalgia, but because the game had such a strong gameplay (read: SABER MECHANISM that was as simple as it was evolving for the player, features that were simplified but strong, and class perks and stability that went hand in hand with one another, each complementing eachother greatly. Not to mention, that beside a strong gameplay and a fine balance, this is also the period in which the MOD stod, population-wise, the greatest.

    There were about 4-5 populated servers a day, from 15 pm to 1 am, and a great lust among the community to not only engage in the development of the MOD (because at this time we actually had a say in things, and not just bugs-to-be-fixed and perhaps a common complaint).

    And yes, it does not help to remove the most populated, repeated map of the entire MOD's history (old, completely fine and definitely working), DOTF. I know many were tired of it. I KNOW many complained about it! But the map was always a dragstone for players to come join, and that dragstone is gone. Simply - gone. A bad choice on many accounts, and although the idea was good - and the new visuals beautiful - you sacrificed, once again, gameplay and entertainment values for the sake of update.

    Take all these different factors into account, put a little pride to the side (I know there has been great work put into the MOD) and implement the working new with the massively working old, and we'd have a great MOD once again, way more stable - way more fun - and from a golden age standpoint in which things really worked well for the MOD and community both.

    This, in my opinion, must be a better solution than keep heading down a hill that we simply can't find our way back from but just further to.

    Thank you!
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  2. SK55555555555555555

    SK55555555555555555 Donator Moderator Internal Beta Team

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  3. FrenzY

    FrenzY Internal Beta Leader Movie Battles II Team

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    Please have patience, we are working towards doing a lot of what you have mentioned. We also move slow since we do this when we have free time, and RL takes precedence.

    We are really close to a much more stable and balanced saber system, we have dotf tweaks coming (no thanks to the trolls), and other gameplay changes as well which should make things even more fun for all to enjoy. However, at the moment we are focused on fixing various bugs, playtesting things and getting tutorials for new players to actually get a grasp of how to play the game before getting destroyed by vets who have played for a decade.
     
  4. Bob-Billy

    Bob-Billy

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    1000 warning points
     
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  5. Hessu

    Hessu Internal Beta Team

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    bring back classic dotf
     
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  6. Defiant

    Defiant Project Leader Movie Battles II Team Code Leader

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    We couldn't if we wanted to. The source code for that is gone. The oldest version of the code that I am aware of existing is somewhere between 0.1.7 and 1.0. It is my old pre-Sxx apocalypse dev environment. I double checked our current code repository and the oldest version that I would trust to be complete is probably 1.2.

    First I think you need to define what you mean by development process. The development process we used up until December 2017 was the exact same development process we were using back as far as 2009. I modernised it a bit when I took over from Vis and Spag. It's been a learning curve but we're getting there. The new process isn't really a radical change, its the standard Design -> Build -> Test -> Feedback -> Revise -> Feedback it always has been. Granted some changes havn't been as good as we'd of liked but I don't see what that's got to do with process, so please can you explain what you mean?

    As for the change in demographic well, most vets must be atleast past their mid to late 20's now. Personally, i'm 30 and got the game way back when it first came out, and started playing MBII its self in b14 (Possibly earlier). The guy who got me into playing the mod was the original beta lead if I remember correctly. Anyway, in 2003 at the ripe old age of 15 I got home from school at 3pm and played various video games straight through to around 11pm. Fast forward to now and I get home from work at about 7pm and play video games from about 9:30pm until about 10:30pm. If I had a kid I can imagine that it would be more like 9:30pm until 9:45pm. I cant imagine that i'm alone in that situation. But ok, new players can be younger and they might have that 6-8 hours of playtime a night. Sure, but when they go and get a star wars game do you think they first look for games that came out before they were born? No they go for the ones they see advertised on TV, and they probably play from a PS4 or Xbox One anyway. That's the part I cant do anything about. Life is life. But what is our fault is that when you've got your precious hour to do what you want to do you don't want it to start like this: Join Server -> Wait 5 minutes for round to start -> Get tk'd instantly -> Wait 5 minutes for next round to start -> Walk round a corner into a TD -> Wait 5 minutes for a round to start -> etc. I think BoP and Conquest will address that by getting people back into the action sooner.

    I cant speak to players being listened to in the past but I am listening now. Sev posted a great post about the state of the game and we ran an open beta off the back of it to try and implemented some of the good ideas that were put forward. This isn't complete and i'd like to get back to it. Likewise people who tried Tempest's saber beta feel very strongly that it is an improvement over 1.4 and 1.5 and we're gonna push a beta out to gather feedback on that. And I promise you this - If Tempest's build is better it'll go into the release after the Open beta.

    DOTFV2 is a better map in every measurable way. I accept that in the ways that arnt measurable the old DOTF was better. There are things that need to be fixed for it to come back, but there is no philosophical objection. DOTFV2 was not done to take a map away, it was a refinement to an existing map. It's 90% the same map.
     
  7. Tylenol

    Tylenol Internal Beta Team

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    These threads are starting to sound the same now. It's always veteran players that keep telling everyone that the only and proper way to fix MB2 is to go back to [Insert Favourite Patch here].

    I thinks it's important to bring back to mind the fact that no progress is ever made by only returning back to old iterations of something. For an something to grow, expand and develop its needs to move forward even if it involves taking risks. Bad patches will always exist, however no good ones will ever come out sticking to the 'comfortable olden' days.
     
  8. foggy

    foggy

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    I always imagined mb2 as Bilbo and the gnomes wandering in circles in the Mirkwood in complete darkness searching for the path. Nudge is a good idea! nudge is fucking terrible let's get rid of it! Oh guys look what we came up with! If you are close to an enemy you can attack quicker! Should work now! Same with flinch. Gotta give credit to the devs for admitting that they were wrong and reverting back instead of fucking a dead horse. Concerning declining population - game is getting older, vets get tired, hell, even trolls get tired. New people don't stay for long, i personally tried to coerce and cajole some of my friends into playing mb2, but even though there's a ton of things to do in mb2 they didn't appreciate it. Most often complaint was, of course, waiting for 5 minutes after getting sniped in the first 30 seconds of the round. If you are not chilling in the discord voice chat or don't come into mb2 with decent projectile aim this stuff gets pretty boring really quickly. FFA is not the solution, it has been irrefutably proven by the dev team that it will disrupt and destroy our small and wholesome community. Also the attitude of the devs towards their community is really baffling. Remember Nightshade's FFA server? And how the conflict was resolved? Did devs give more options to hosts to modify their servers? Or simply excluded it from master server labeling it as "dangerous"? Remember achilles? Remember puppytine? Remember c a t l a d y? These and those that you have listed are the most common problems that have been discussed 10 trillion times already, were discarded, are discarded, and will be discarded. this thread is going nowhere
     
  9. Oink Oink ?

    Oink Oink ?

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    That is very unfortunate to hear! But there must be a retired DEV from that period that has kept this highly valuable information safe? Or at least one would think as much as hope so! Maybe a little digging is what it would take? Anyhow... This is if it even was considered to get it back; a decision in your hands - not mine.

    You're quite right. I used "development process" as a genereal term, but I was mostly referring to the alteration and decision-making process amongst this new and modernized DEV Team rather than your handbook'd and fully working development process. The problem is radical changes, back and forth, and the continuing diminishment of what once was a rather fully working and populated MOD (of various reasons, which i posted up above and deem unecessary to go through again for the flow of our conversation).

    Definitely some valid points here, but this has got more to do with age assumptions and a little bit of speculating than entertainment values and balance. But I still think that as far as Vets go; we have been disgarded for quite some time, and if that is due to a mentality that we're getting older and naturally more comitted to others things; that is true. But it is not true that this is the root cause of prioritzing 40-60 minutes in the MOD once a week and that's it. That is simply not true for most. I would easily play MBII more often if it, for just one single year, could stay balanced and working and with the best of what the MOD has ever had to offer (which is literally RC1-RC3 with a few ned additions added in). The radical spiral we've gone through over the last three years has done us little to no favors, and it's a slight mockery to the people that burned as much love for the MOD as you guys did and do to not acknowledge this.

    Well, hearing you believe strongly in something is just as important to me as my own beliefs about the MOD. You are the team leader and the rest should either follow or leave. If you sincerely believe we are on the brink of a brand new era for saber mechanisms and game stability; than for the love of all things good in the community, get it out as soon as it is finished or working beyond your standards. This MOD needs a new and fully fletched patch that PATCHES old wounds in a hurry to not drown what love and care that is left from all sides of the community.

    As for DOTF, I completely disagree. The MAP was a glorified dragging stone for people - newbs as old - to come and have a blast, and a "boring" DOTF map was still better than empty servers - even for those that did not even like the map. The map was perfectly sized - perfectly offensive and defensive - and had memorable places to engage with the other players. The new one lacks some of that inimacy, and it definitely lacks the memorability (CW, T-Junction, the old GEN and even the Balcony).

    I thank you so much for your caring and love of this MOD. This MOD kept me laughing and loving through a very tough period in my life where I could do nothing but lay still and hope to survive, so it has a place in my heart that no other media does. Please keep it alive. Please care about the opinions of those who care equally as much as your own. Thank you!
     
  10. Oink Oink ?

    Oink Oink ?

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    I can't speak for other people's threads, and I can't speak for the content within them as I haven't been much near MBII or the forums in quite a while before my recent posts. But I can say that if multiple people are sharing the same complaints, it might be quite a good time to start listening? I never complained, failed to adapt or lost interest due to a patch the first six years of this MOD - and neither did most of my Veteran friends, so maybe we're not talking gibberish, but actually common sense as we have built a love and understanding for this MOD over years and years of gameplay? Maybe we simply care more than you because we have a better understanding? Or maybe we just disagree about certain few aspects, but why should my opinions be invalued because of your disagreement? At least if that's the point you're trying to make.

    I completely see your point, but you're putting words in my mouth that was never there. I never told the DEVS to return to old iterations and stay there. I suggested to them to go back to a WORKING, functioning platform and basis in where the MOD was at its strongest and finest - and work from there, by implementing working new features with the massively working old. That is what a good developer would do in a case of emergency or in a case of losing a player base; you give them what they want, need or don't even know that they want or need.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  11. Oink Oink ?

    Oink Oink ?

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    You have my curiosity and my attention. Like I said up above to Defiant; your passion is equally as important as my own for this game, and if you guys truly believe that this is the saviour-patch we truly need, than damn it; go for it!

    Thank you for engaging me and telling me about the process at hand!
     
  12. Defiant

    Defiant Project Leader Movie Battles II Team Code Leader

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    I don't believe that this is a 'saviour' patch, and I don't think there will be one patch that magically fixes everyone's concerns. It's a bit by bit process, we just need to address knowing when we've got something right this time and not tweaking things into ridiculousness. I went on a massive tirade in our dev chat last night about the saber system and how it has evolved from something straight forward and intuitive and little tweaks made here and there until whats actually in existence is a system so convoluted and dysfunctional its just not fun to me anymore. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. 50 reasonable design descisions can produce a totally unreasonable outcome. As a team we've just got to learn that imperfect and fun is better than perfect and boring.
     
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  13. SeV

    SeV Internal Beta Team

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    When talking with tempest on steam or stassin on discord, and reading their ideas and changes and what they worked on during these past few years, it gave off the impression that they wanted to include a thousand minor details without first looking at the big picture and getting that right. Tempest was always working on insanely convoluted and over complicated game mechanics and stassin was not much better in many cases, but it's definitely not all their fault. There was a general focus on the new movies bringing life into MB2, and then the maps and then various nerfs and removal of various things that made the game fun. And as you said, revamping the saber system from scratch every patch instead of finding something that is fun and works, and sticking to it and building on it. For my part I still think it's something close to 1.3 with perks like cyan and staff nerfed and parry damage added, pb zones modified and so on. Not gonna go into detail, I've done so many times before.

    It is exactly as you say about fun and imperfect vs perfect and boring and I've been saying this for years now, especially whenever the question of stuff being overpowered vs underpowered came up. You MUST design around FUN. The game's primary purpose is FUN, not to be balanced or to be a fucking 5 minute esport counterstrike clone or whatever. Give player choices and make it as FUN as you can, as COOL as you can. It's a star wars game, make it fucking cool.

    To give you a few examples of things that have been raped because of balance and ended up destroying fun.

    Proj rifle for mando was strong, but really, really fun. I don't think EE3 quite replaced it. But for balance reasons, mandos can't have proj.
    Force powers like Heal, drain, speed and absorb can't be in because of balance issues or map design. I call bullshit. The focus should be fun. And sith having speed = more fun to play sith. Jedi having heal = more fun, more options. Wider range of gameplay. Even stuff like absorb, along with many other possibilities remain. You remember all those unused FA assets lying around? Force blind? Perks like jumping not draining BP. Utility things like cloaking belts and walls and turrets and seeker drones? This game as so many possibilites for fun, but it has been consistently killed under the philosophy of 'do things this way, limited scope and limited design'. I mean, it has been mace's opinion about game design for many years now that he knows how ppl should play the game and any other way of playing the game should be banished. Think about the hard-coded timer that killed RP for example, and how players and gameplay has been micromanaged. In dueling I would reference things like ACM dictating how someone should play with no option to deviate, and also over-complicating the game like hell with insane behind the scenes math and invisible mechanics that somehow affect the outcome of the duel, rather than the straight-forward and visible mechanics of the older builds (which is why vets sound like broken records on feedback.. There is something to it, you know. It's not just nostalgia. Some things really worked back then, and were fun as hell).

    Then there's stuff like the grenades that explode on impact. Was it kind of imbalanced? Sure. But it was insanely fun. I still have fond memories of b18 open mode because of contact grenades. Even corpse grenades! It was really fun landing a direct nade on a flying mando and making them explode mid air, or nading the corpse of a fallen foe to make it insta explode and kill his friends. Having insta explode nades will also satisfy those who say that jedi/sith are too powerful because it is a very straight forward and clear cut anti saberist tool. Honestly what could be more straight forward a counter than contact nades?

    I think the answer to balance is to give every class as many tools as you can, and let it sort itself out. Don't take away all the tools and fun stuff because 'OP'. Rather give every class something 'OP' and fun.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  14. jango40

    jango40

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    You have FA for these FUN FUN FUN things

    Open should be balanced, many people play competitively, I do that almost exclusively at this point. Bringing all this to Open would break the game.
     
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  15. SeV

    SeV Internal Beta Team

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    They are just examples. I am not saying they should all be put back in the game. But consideration should be given to include mechanics that make the game more fun, rather than always thinking in negative loops about 'this is OP so remove it' and continuing that for long periods of development, thus resulting in the removal of a lot of fun.
     
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  16. Firestrike

    Firestrike

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    It's this mentality here that has helped expedite the game you're currently playing ever deeper into its grave. When you generalize like this you are effectively dismissing criticism made by players who have seen more builds, put in more hours, and once cared more about the game than the average player in the pre-existing and current playerbase. Here are some indisputable, objective truths. The current saber system objectively has less statistically relevant mechanics than it used to (nudge, actual halfswings, instaswings, counters not tied to the camera based PB, timing on every nudged/countered swing are no longer as relevant to winning a duel). The list can very easily go on but I admittedly excluded saber perks. The playerbase objectively was much larger back in the aforementioned builds of RC1/RC2/RC3. There was an objectively large decline in player population after these patches - we can subjectively speculate why but it's already been talked about.

    I still read these forums from time to time and there is this stigmatized, irrational mentality that the vets who still post on this forum are extremely biased, don't know what they're talking about, or have no idea what is good for the game. Most of the vets I've seen post are not crying for their [Insert Favorite Patch Here] to be reverted back to live - they already know it's too far gone for that. It's also just not possible or realistic anymore. They simply explain where the game went wrong and debate how to move forward. What would @Chaos the Chaotic make of this? I'm genuinely curious.


    No one is saying to hard revert the game back into RC1/RC2/RC3 and keep it there to live out "the comfortable olden days". The consensus has generally always been to take what worked from those builds and expand. There's several posts to reference but I'll list a few.


    Admittedly two of those quotes are referenced by me. I could find more on this forum but the majority of the veteran comments were purged in collateral damage with the old MBII forums after Sxx's fiasco. I only wish you could see the kind of constructive criticism the mod was getting at that point in time. All of the information is here, and has been on these forums for years. The last quote is from 2015. Three years later there are still some people who are not grasping what others type on here.

    I used to be the Beta Team Leader for the MBII team back in the day, and I'm pleased to say that no one on the team back then entertained or practiced this kind of dismissive, uncritical thinking that I sometimes unfortunately read today.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
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  17. Tylenol

    Tylenol Internal Beta Team

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    lol
    Never said your opinion should be invalued, I'm saying it's ridiculous to roll back however many years it is of features, mechanics, iterations, improvements etc instead of working and improving the current system that is.
    I don't know how RC1-3 worked or looked like but I'm assuming your basically suggesting to change established mechanics that been in place for ages. Am I correct in my assumption?
    Despite what most people are saying, 1.5 isn't the worst patch ever. Yes, duelling is messy at but for this to be worst patch ever open mode would have to be in complete disrepair as well which it isn't. There's things that I believe should be addressed but from what Ive seen and heard I'm expecting those improvements will come soon.
    Apparently I dismiss all arguements now and the people who say them, because it's not humanly possible to only disagree with someone on one thing and agree with anything else.
    By going back to basics you're still removing all the smaller details and features that many consider important and just making it a bigger task to reimplement them. I don't know how well I'm putting my point across so to put it this way, in an attempt to make a car engine better by going back to the beginning of cars and working back up from there, you're throwing away all the time and effort spent on perfecting all the other components like the suspension, chassis shape and etc.


    Goodness me, this took too long to write out properly
     
  18. Townsend

    Townsend

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    How about just waiting for the new updates/patches....
     
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  19. Firestrike

    Firestrike

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    Scroll back up and take a look at what you typed, and what I typed. There is an extreme disconnect with your original post and what you quoted me in.

    In this very specific instance, you are typing the comment that a group of people (veteran players) always share the same idea (the only way to fix MB2 is to go back to [Insert Favorite Patch Here]) to the point where the threads you are reading all sound the same. You aren't reading the actual opinions nor showing that you have tried to do so. If you did, you would see that what you are generalizing and marginalizing in your statement is not accurate at all (see the multiple spoiler tagged quotes above). This is the literal definition of dismissive. I do not understand the meaning or context of your response to me at all:

    Nowhere did I say that you dismiss all arguments and dismiss the people who say all of these arguments. I merely pointed out that, in this specific instance, you are being dismissive to the opinions veterans were giving because of your blanket statement above. It is absolutely "humanly possible" to "disagree with someone on one thing, and agree with them on something else (paraphrased)." I completely agree. Nowhere in my post did I ever assert the claim otherwise. You are responding to words and comments that are just not there. You're putting words in my mouth just as Oink pointed out, or you are misconstruing / aren't understanding what is being typed.

    Your example falls completely in line with a common business mistake called the Sunken Cost fallacy.

    TL;DR “The sunk cost effect is the general tendency for people to continue an endeavor, or continue consuming or pursuing an option, if they’ve invested time or money or some resource in it,” says Christopher Olivola.

    Humans get caught in this psychological trap for several possible reasons, Olivola says. Sticking with the plan, even when it no longer serves you, could be an attempt to correct cognitive dissonance: the mental disconnect between paying for something and not getting the expected return on investment. It could also be a knee-jerk reaction to regret. Or, Olivola says, it could be an attempt to convince others, and ourselves, that we’re not wasteful.

    Oink is right when he says that the majority of the playerbase did not like the direction the saber system took. They have a wider frame of reference than the newer players only because they've experienced and played more builds. It's nothing more or less than that; it is not inferiority or superiority on either side. They can see and have seen that the suspension, chassis, and shape of the car in your example isn't worth reinvesting into. You may claim otherwise but the majority of the players who have had this wider range of perspective have already spoken with their actions - they're gone.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
  20. Stassin

    Stassin Donator Movie Battles II Team Retired

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    You said you wouldn't test anything, but do check beta and come test once i restart testing (in 1-2 weeks) for the gameplay developments i've been cooking up lately. You might just be surprised at the "fun" factor.
     
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