Making New Content is Pointless Now

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I played mb2 all day today, and to sum my experience up:
Started, 3 servers were up, 2 were EU, so i joined the aod dotf (ewwww)

Finally TR Deathstar started up, joined that and asked a bunch of people to go to TR RTV, and about 2 of us did, and spent 1:30PM-4:30PM playing in RTV with 6 players in it.

Definently would be more fun if everyone didn't just play the same thing for hundreds of hours. How do you play a map that long even?
 
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Bro I don't know why NA is so fond of these 24/7 map servers, but let's not introduce nazi restrictions on server owners and admins. They pay for the servers so they are free to do whatever the hell they want.

I agree. The second you put heavy restrictions on what a server admin can and cant do on his own server is when there's a problem, and servers start going down.
 
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Bro I don't know why NA is so fond of these 24/7 map servers, but let's not introduce nazi restrictions on server owners and admins. They pay for the servers so they are free to do whatever the hell they want.

You managed to take a single quote out of context just to call it "nazi," in order to disregard and invalidate the rest of what I wrote. Please don't be so disingenuous.

If you'd quoted down a little further, you'd realize that what I actually wrote was literally detailing a democratic system of checks and balances wherein voting is the primary means to change maps on servers, but which server owners have a large degree of control and power over, in a similar fashion that most republican or parliamentary systems operate under.
 
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You managed to take a single quote out of context just to call it "nazi," in order to disregard and invalidate the rest of what I wrote. Please don't be so disingenuous.

If you'd quoted down a little further, you'd realize that what I actually wrote was literally detailing a democratic system of checks and balances wherein voting is the primary means to change maps on servers, but which server owners have a large degree of control and power over, in a similar fashion that most republican or parliamentary systems operate under.
Once again, it is people who pay for servers who should have full control over them, otherwise you are actually discouraging players from hosting their own servers.

I don't think anyone wants to pay for a server from their own pocket only to realize that they only have limited control over it.
 
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Once again, it is people who pay for servers who should have full control over them, otherwise you are actually discouraging players from hosting their own servers.

I don't think anyone wants to pay for a server from their own pocket only to realize that they only have limited control over it.

Then we have competing directives here. I'm open to new suggestions and ideas, but they need to be practical.

My hope here is to see that as many players as possible can see the content they desire to see by choice, and so that the developers can have their content be seen by the playerbase. The current status quo has the terms for how the whole region plays be dictated by a standardized and uniform server hosting tactic that automatically edges out all competition unfairly. I'll refer you back to the initial cycle laid out at the beginning of the thread.

This current system is not based on freedom of choice at all, but rather based on manipulating mass psychology solely in favor of the server owners. I do understand your sentiment that server owners should be allowed to do whatever they want without restriction so long as they've paid for it, but understand this:

The problem with this sort of anarcho-capitalist philosophy is that while it seems like a promotion of freedom and democratic choice by limiting restriction as far as possible, it has the opposite effect. It creates a situation where whoever gains power and popularity initially gets to keep it forever and then dictate the terms and conditions to everyone else through coercion, since there are no rules against dirty hosting tactics and no checks and balances in place to ensure fair competition. Once they've gained a sufficient amount of popularity, they can no longer be competed against through normal means, as most competition will either be driven out or absorbed, and because of this they'll become the de-facto governors of the region.

Effort on the part of competing clans hasn't worked for a decade, and if a system like RTV is implemented halfheartedly, then it'll be a wasted effort. Will you just doom the US side to slow death by denying any solution, or do you have a functional alternative?
 
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vader_didnt_read.gif


"The problem with this sort of anarcho-capitalist philosophy is that while it seems like a promotion of freedom and democratic choice by limiting restriction as far as possible, it has the opposite effect. It creates a situation where whoever gains power and popularity initially gets to keep it forever and then dictate the terms and conditions to everyone else through coercion, since there are no rules against dirty hosting tactics and no checks and balances in place to ensure fair competition."

you sound like a politician trying to tell the amercian people about a horrible company thats taking over the world
 
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If you want to solve the issue of people only playing 24/7 servers - it might be worth setting up NA community events and playtimes, schedule play sessions and encourage people to get to know players and group up so they can get 4 - 6 people on a server and start off that initial population and draw in some others, I'm sure you could drum up some activity on the discord.

But if the issue really is that no one wants to be that first player, then the solution is likely to encourage people to make friends so they can have a few people join the server all at once and give it that initial boost.
 
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Europeans seem to be of the mindset that "we took care of it by playing elsewhere, and you can too!." Americans, who let it grow to full maturity, are being told the only solution is to do exactly what you've been doing for the past decade. The problem with this advice is that it only would have worked if the US side had unilaterally followed it sooner, like EU had done itself. Now we have completely different perspectives on the situation and can't seem to relate properly.

As sad as it is to say, we've gone to such a high extreme that the only solution is for the developers to somehow and some way signal their intention firmly that same-map 24/7 servers are bad for the game and the community. Most of us know they are on some level. However, the fear people have is that any action taken against these servers will 1.)Be ineffective and a waste of time or 2.)Be too effective and limit the options of server owners too far.

I'm willing to state firmly that the mono-map 24/7 servers are the biggest problem to the US side of the MBII community and its future, and not just some quaint issue that's being overblown like some in the EU side seem to think. I don't think the EU developers realize just how bad it is for the US.
 
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Europeans seem to be of the mindset that "we took care of it by playing elsewhere, and you can too!." Americans, who let it grow to full maturity, are being told the only solution is to do exactly what you've been doing for the past decade. The problem with this advice is that it only would have worked if the US side had unilaterally followed it sooner, like EU had done itself. Now we have completely different perspectives on the situation and can't seem to relate properly.

As sad as it is to say, we've gone to such a high extreme that the only solution is for the developers to somehow and some way signal their intention firmly that same-map 24/7 servers are bad for the game and the community. Most of us know they are on some level. However, the fear people have is that any action taken against these servers will 1.)Be ineffective and a waste of time or 2.)Be too effective and limit the options of server owners too far.

I'm willing to state firmly that the mono-map 24/7 servers are the biggest problem to the US side of the MBII community and its future, and not just some quaint issue that's being overblown like some in the EU side seem to think. I don't think the EU developers realize just how bad it is for the US.
An important point would be to get the input of the owner of [tr]deathstar and AOD Pandemonium. Discussion the option to impose something to someone without their opinion on that subject is not good practice. If anyone knows how to contact them (I would guess discord or on the server directly with some luck) I would advise them to do so.
 
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An important point would be to get the input of the owner of [tr]deathstar and AOD Pandemonium. Discussion the option to impose something to someone without their opinion on that subject is not good practice. If anyone knows how to contact them (I would guess discord or on the server directly with some luck) I would advise them to do so.

I've contacted AOD before on different matters. From my experience, they're not very receptive to community feedback and are very insular.

For example, about 4-5 years in the past AOD decided as an experiment to remove their Dotf 24/7 server and instead put a rotation up. It was the most popular server for over a month and saw all sorts of veterans come out of the woodworks to populate it. Suddenly, about a month later, they took it off the serverlist with no explanation and went back to hosting only a Dotf 24/7 server. This was strange to me, since it was more popular overall than their Dotf server during its brief run. I registered an account with their forums so I could put in a request to have that reinstated and ask why they removed it, and they told me that their clan unanimously voted to have it removed. Despite this, I asked around with several people in the clan ingame, and they gave me a different story, saying that they wanted the server to stay up, but their leadership decided against it. Thankfully now they have a rotation server along with their 24/7 server, but even then it's played only 1/4th as much as their 24/7 server.

As an anecdote, I don't think that the average player can reach them. They're just not in a position of power to do so. However, it might be more fruitful for the developers to discuss the overall implications that hosting these servers have for the mod. The developers in the end are the ultimate power in this mod, regardless of their apparently mixed stance on the matter and desire not to be enforcers, and these clans likely would be more willing to listen if the developers themselves explained how it is a problem, rather than just a few players here and there.
 
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we have rtv server but u gias no play there so stop the tears. If u want diff maps u have to go to servers with diff maps instead of checking once a hour and complaing thats its still empty

the only issue is that most of the time ppl just go to the already populated servers(which is either dotf 24/7 or ds24/7), so its hard to populated a rotation&rtv server.
 
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the only issue is that most of the time ppl just go to the already populated servers(which is either dotf 24/7 or ds24/7), so its hard to populated a rotation&rtv server.
True but this is on everyone to go to a server with less pop if they want other maps.

Server owners are not the problem and pushing rtv wont help anyone if a subset of the active population wants to get to a map 100% of the time then it's fine, if they don't it's up to them to go somewhere else.
 
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we have rtv server but u gias no play there so stop the tears. If u want diff maps u have to go to servers with diff maps instead of checking once a hour and complaing thats its still empty

It's not that easy. You're being very glib. There's a cyclical problem that happens when new players only play on one-map for weeks to months that selects out the new players who like diverse content by making them quit, and at the same time keeps the new players that can somehow stomach doing the same map 24/7. You can't fill up a server or keep its population half as easily because the 24/7 server tactic breeds generations of new players who won't play on anything else regardless of how many shiny things you dangle in their face.

It's also very telling that TR didn't used to be anything of particular importance, but meteorically rose in popularity by copying AOD's 24/7 server tactic. Compare this to other clans like EW and Divine which always had to struggle to keep their populations, despite having more active members online at all times populating their own servers.
 
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If you want people to play your maps, why don't you stop whining and learn how to make better maps? RTV servers already exist. If you want to play on one, get it populated. I get DS populated when it's empty all of the time in the early morning because I like to play there. There is nothing stopping you from doing the same with the existing RTV/rotation servers, or hosting your own. Trying to impose your will upon the entire community through a forced patch because your feelings are hurt about the preferences of the current player-base is pathetic.. Like I said, if you want people to play your shitty maps, learn to make maps worth playing.
 
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If you want people to play your maps, why don't you stop whining and learn how to make better maps? RTV servers already exist. If you want to play on one, get it populated. I get DS populated when it's empty all of the time in the early morning because I like to play there. There is nothing stopping you from doing the same with the existing RTV/rotation servers, or hosting your own. Trying to impose your will upon the entire community through a forced patch because your feelings are hurt about the preferences of the current player-base is pathetic.. Like I said, if you want people to play your shitty maps, learn to make maps worth playing.

This is the exact kind of attitude that reaffirms the title of title of this thread. If people exist who truly believe that all the other maps besides Deathstar or DotF are shitty, like you seem to, then making new content really is pointless.

In the past, the problem wasn't "one-map 24/7" but DotF 24/7. People said "all other maps but DotF are shit and you shouldn't play them because they're bad." Now we have Deathstar 24/7, and Deathstar is a very old map. The fact that this map is now the popular go-to map for 24/7 servers flies in the face of the "all maps but X are bad" theory. It's clearly not the map making talent of the developers that is a problem, but the server hosting tactics.
 
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eezstreet

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It's not that easy. You're being very glib. There's a cyclical problem that happens when new players only play on one-map for weeks to months that selects out the new players who like diverse content by making them quit, and at the same time keeps the new players that can somehow stomach doing the same map 24/7. You can't fill up a server or keep its population half as easily because the 24/7 server tactic breeds generations of new players who won't play on anything else regardless of how many shiny things you dangle in their face.

It's also very telling that TR didn't used to be anything of particular importance, but meteorically rose in popularity by copying AOD's 24/7 server tactic. Compare this to other clans like EW and Divine which always had to struggle to keep their populations, despite having more active members online at all times populating their own servers.
No, Motoko is right. The reason why people play on the 24/7 servers is because they're popular. They're popular because they have people playing on them. That's pretty much all that goes into it. As someone who only plays from time to time, this is the single deciding factor for me. Does it have players on it? Then I play on it. The 24/7 servers are popular because the clans that are playing on them are large, whether they are just super old and have been around for a long time (AOD used to be a JK2 clan, way back before JKA was even a thing) or they're a legitimately entertaining group of people to be around (tR deathstar, despite being on one map, is a great server to play on just because of the trolling and shenanigans).

This framing of the discussion around superiority complexes is even more ridiculous when you realize that this is an NA specific issue. EU clans (and also some NA clans!) use RTV on a lot of their main servers. They're still very popular. Now, granted, you see maybe the same handful of 5-6 maps getting played (dotf, deathstar, BoC, lunarbase, smuggler for lulz, dxun, echo base, commtower, etc), but as others have said, that's just because a lot of the other maps are extremely hit and miss in terms of quality. Have you ever played Doomgiver? Or a lot of the UM? Or Cloud City? Most of those suffer from severe issues both in terms of bugs and quality which don't make them fun to play.

Confusingly though, we've seen renovations to a lot of the more well-played maps like DOTF and Lunarbase, but not really seen any renovations to the old, neglected maps that nobody finds fun or interesting. And we've seen the idea also get bounced around from the developers that maybe RTV should become mandatory on servers. Why should server hosts be forced to allow maps that are low quality and that the developers aren't updating? I agree with the notion that RTV should be integrated into servers as a mainline feature instead of running as a separate script, and I don't disagree with the idea that updating maps (yes, even classics that people know and love like DOTF) is a good thing - it just seems like weird priorities to me? But then again, I can't really criticize when no action has taken place.

Now as far as what I would suggest doing is what was mentioned earlier in the thread but didn't seem to get much traction. Try talking to the leaders of these large clans and see if they'd be down for having RTV on their servers, perhaps as a weekly event, like Friday RTV day. That might inspire people to play RTV more often, not just on those event days.
 
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"Lets impose restrictions of the free choice of players because they won't play the things I want them to, despite it being not up to ME, the individual, but up to THEY, the community, to choose and enjoy maps"

Honestly, the reason most people do not play specific maps is because of personal preference or flaws within the map itself, Forcing people to play maps for the sake of "Diversity in the amount of maps played" is about as logical as saying "Lets hire someone who has no experience or way of doing this job properly simply for the sake of having MORE PEOPLE in the workplace"

You want someone (or a map) that can do the job, and if they do the job better than the rest, then you favor them with a promotion (playing the map more often).

However, posting forced regulations just so we can have more maps is simply going to lessen the amount of people playing when a server they hate/is terribly flawed is forced into the rotation, and make people bitter.

If someone forced me to play on theed when I really just wanted to play deathstar or Dotf, i'd be upset, I assure you.

tl;dr let the people decide, dammit!
 
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