It's Kinda Ironic

[UDrew]

So I usually just try to stand aside while you guys need to take a moment to vent about the server, but I feel like I need to address some things:

I was kicked from CC in the first few days the server was up because I was the last alive on my team, and it was 1 vs 6. I killed all of the enemy team, and was kicked on the very last kill.

Like we talked about then, I don't see what real difference it makes if you go 6 player kill streak at the beginning, middle, or end of the round. You're still consistently (because you had to have been warned before) besting 6 other people. So when it comes to helping the enjoyment of 1 person or 6, I'll always choose the 6. Plus if the system was changed for the last man standing scenario you're talking about, it'd be easily exploitable by people just hiding all game until the end until going all out on the enemy team. That's not a strat I want to endorse.

I asked the server owner what I was supposed to do in that situation, and he literally told me I should have just let them kill me.

Before you put yourself in that situation, you would have been warned about your behavior at least twice before when you were performing similar kill streaks. There's no way at that point that you can't understand the type of server you're on by that point, so yea, your options would be:

• Practice a different class/build you're not as used to.
• Limit your kills for a bit and yea, probably let the new guys get the best of you here and there. Maybe even help teach them some things.
• Join a different server or log off a bit to cool off.
• Let yourself get kicked.

If you don't like any of those options, then I'm not sure why you want to be on this server in the first place.

The server is a joke, it is there under the guise of "letting new players learn", but there is nobody for them to learn from.

This isn't the only goal of the server, some people just want a break from tryharding or just want to try out new builds. Plus, there are frequently good and helpful people who stop by and help new players out.

Ideally, new players would learn mechanics and strategies by simply watching veterans play the game. That is how I, and most other veterans picked up the game.

That might be ideal for you, but that's not the best for everyone and again, it's not everyone's goal to try to get better. Some people just want to play the game casually. I just don't get this whole 'That's how I learned, so that's how everyone should learn' mentality. If people want to learn that way, there are other servers open with plenty of people like you more than willing to teach how you were taught. Casual Corner doesn't stop that, so what's wrong with variety?

I've even seen players kicked for tossing a single grenade down a hallway and getting 3-4 kills with one nade.

This is misleading. Sure, you might have seen it happen, but you're leaving out the part (again) where they were warned at least twice before that. That's why there are warnings first, in the case of lucky grenades and such. Heck, even if you got the luckiest grenade and killed 16 people at once, you would still get just a warning if that was your first offense, but you have to draw the line somewhere and if things keep happening, you gotta start wondering if it's more than luck.

If you think conditioning players to not be as effective as possible, avoid kills, and purposely be bad at the game is a "good" thing and will bolster the mod's population, then I'm not really sure what to tell you.

Again, sounds like this just isn't the server for you. In general, people of the same skill level will naturally balance their K/Ds when they're all trying to be effective. So it's not really conditioning them to play differently. Sure, this doesn't hold true for everyone, there can be naturally talented new players, returning players, or even those same new players who have started getting better at the game who will spike up their K/D. So at that point, another server might be better for them, but I don't see how this conditions them to think that's how the game has to be played. As mentioned before, there are other servers that they might be ready to jump to. That's no secret.

As for the population thing, I mean, I don't have a ton to say about that. I'm glad if this server did help keep some of the population, if it did at all, but it was really the goal. Just wanted a more casual server where I could relearn the game at and apparently some others wanted that too. You have to admit though, this can be a very punishing game, especially for new players, so I can understand why some wouldn't want to start off in a server where they end up spending more time in spectator mode than actually playing. If you can't understand that, then I'm not really sure what to tell you.

I have seen UDrew, the server owner, be warned and even kicked by his own bot multiple times. If he was a regular player, he would have been banned many times over. It is very convenient that the bot anybody that is better than the server owner, yet he plays how he wants with no repercussions.

This honestly made me laugh, so thank you for that! There are no exceptions in the bot, why would I let it warn and kick me but not ban? Why not just exempt myself from all of it? Yes, I have been warned before, never kicked though to the best of my recollection. You can check the Automated Actions channel in the Discord. I don't go through and clean them up to hide my tracks or anything (because again, why not just exempt myself in the first place?). The only thing I see is a warning from Feb 3rd, which yea, sometimes it happens to the best of us. That's why it's not policy to just kick right away.


But anyway, as always with posts from you or anyone else, I appreciate your feedback and I do make improvements to the system where and when I can, but I'm pretty sure you're always to disagree with the core idea of a new/casual player server. I've made my peace with that and I hope you can too.

 

[SlashBolt]

But anyway, as always with posts from you or anyone else, I appreciate your feedback and I do make improvements to the system where and when I can, but I'm pretty sure you're always to disagree with the core idea of a new/casual player server. I've made my peace with that and I hope you can too.

Let's not pretend that the idea of a server welcoming to new players must necessarily be a server that kicks people based on too-positive-of-a-K/D. The core idea is inoffensive and practical, it's the periphery idea of kicking people who are playing the game correctly that frustrates it.

 

[UDrew]

No it's not the only way for sure, but it's the most effective and practical way that I can think of. I can't imagine how letting experienced have a field day on newer players (ie having that too-positive-of-a-K/D) would work out well. Especially in a game like this where deaths are pretty unforgiving and you can be waiting minutes before being able to play again. Unfortunately many in the community have proven that if you don't draw a line like this, they will just go all out and I just don't see how that's less offensive.

If everyone is of that same/lower skillset (which is one of the 2 main targets of the server), they can still play the game "correctly" without running into issues. Many people do all the time because when they're all competing at that same level, their K/Ds naturally balance out. Sure, someone might get lucky here and there and peak above the rest for a moment, but that's why there's leeway in the system. So I haven't seen it be an issue for most new players, it's mostly the already experienced players or the new ones who are ready to move on that might run into to troubles if they can't play nicely with those who aren't on their level.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

How a server that encourages people to be bad at the game can be considered good for newbies is beyond me. MB2 is inherently competitive - you can clearly see it in every aspect of the mod. And to compete, new players go through the process of learning by watching how experienced players play, analyzing their actions, imitating them and then eventually coming up with their own tactics and strategies. That's how it works in every competitive game, and that's how it works it real life too.

And guess what happens when you put them into an environment, where the aforementioned experienced players aren't allowed to exist? You get a big box full of headless chickens who have no idea what to do, how to act and what builds to use since they have no model of reference, aside from other noobs, who similarly have no idea what to do. And on top of that, you add an omnipotent being that actively stops them from trying too hard, if at all.

This is, in my opinion, one of the worst systems for new players you can think of. Not only because it discourages improvement, but also because it leads them to believe that they are already good enough, since they are only exposed to other new players, who often offer no challenge whatsoever.

As such, I really hate this notion that CC is a perfect server for "noobs". It is quite the opposite - it's the absolute worst place to join as a new player, because of reasons I already explained above. It's a casual server for casual players who play so casually that they might as well not be playing whatsoever, but just chat and troll around instead. And that's totally fine. But don't try to sell it as a place for newbies - that's pure bullshit from top to bottom, and you know it.

 

[Fluffy |>]

Time for tryhard corner - kicks the lowest k/d person every round until only one is left alive

 

[UDrew]

Time for tryhard corner - kicks the lowest k/d person every round until only one is left alive

I've actually considered that, haha. Maintain a positive K/D (with some leeway) or be kicked for a short amount of time. It's not really my arena plus with the reactions I get to trying something different already, I don't think people would go for it if I did it, but I have thought about it!

How a server that encourages people to be bad at the game can be considered good for newbies is beyond me. MB2 is inherently competitive - you can clearly see it in every aspect of the mod. And to compete, new players go through the process of learning by watching how experienced players play, analyzing their actions, imitating them and then eventually coming up with their own tactics and strategies. That's how it works in every competitive game, and that's how it works it real life too.

And guess what happens when you put them into an environment, where the aforementioned experienced players aren't allowed to exist? You get a big box full of headless chickens who have no idea what to do, how to act and what builds to use since they have no model of reference, aside from other noobs, who similarly have no idea what to do. And on top of that, you add an omnipotent being that actively stops them from trying too hard, if at all.

This is, in my opinion, one of the worst systems for new players you can think of. Not only because it discourages improvement, but also because it leads them to believe that they are already good enough, since they are only exposed to other new players, who often offer no challenge whatsoever.

As such, I really hate this notion that CC is a perfect server for "noobs". It is quite the opposite - it's the absolute worst place to join as a new player, because of reasons I already explained above. It's a casual server for casual players who play so casually that they might as well not be playing whatsoever, but just chat and troll around instead. And that's totally fine. But don't try to sell it as a place for newbies - that's pure bullshit from top to bottom, and you know it.

I just really don't understand why you're so against people who want to play the game a little differently than you. To me this is like a game of basketball. Sure you can look at the NBA, Semi-Pro, College, etc. and talk about how competitive the sport is and how it's supposed to be played and all that, but does that mean anyone who wants to play basketball has to be ultra competitive or they should just not bother?

To me this all sounds like you guys are saying if a new player wants to play, they should want to play with those NBA players. Sure, you're going to get dunked on and all your shots blocked, but hey, you'll see how the pros do it, right? Would you lose your minds too if some people just wanted to play a casual pick up game at the park? If an NBA player got in that game and just relentlessly trashed everyone else in that game, would you really blame those casual players for picking up their ball and playing somewhere else? Does it have to be everyone's goal to get better? Why can't people just play to have fun if that's how they want to play?

I don't know if that helps you see my point of view on this, but I hope it does. I feel like people should be allowed to have that friendly pickup game if that's how they want to play. Who cares if they're not playing perfect or they're not trying to go pro? They can have fun even if there are people who take the sport to a whole other level. They don't have to be mixed together. There are other courts, there are other servers.

I've never said the system is perfect, but I do think it's helping make a space for people with a similar mindset.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

I've actually considered that, haha. Maintain a positive K/D (with some leeway) or be kicked for a short amount of time. It's not really my arena plus with the reactions I get to trying something different already, I don't think people would go for it if I did it, but I have thought about it!



I just really don't understand why you're so against people who want to play the game a little differently than you. To me this is like a game of basketball. Sure you can look at the NBA, Semi-Pro, College, etc. and talk about how competitive the sport is and how it's supposed to be played and all that, but does that mean anyone who wants to play basketball has to be ultra competitive or they should just not bother?

To me this all sounds like you guys are saying if a new player wants to play, they should want to play with those NBA players. Sure, you're going to get dunked on and all your shots blocked, but hey, you'll see how the pros do it, right? Would you lose your minds too if some people just wanted to play a casual pick up game at the park? If an NBA player got in that game and just relentlessly trashed everyone else in that game, would you really blame those casual players for picking up their ball and playing somewhere else? Does it have to be everyone's goal to get better? Why can't people just play to have fun if that's how they want to play?

I don't know if that helps you see my point of view on this, but I hope it does. I feel like people should be allowed to have that friendly pickup game if that's how they want to play. Who cares if they're not playing perfect or they're not trying to go pro? They can have fun even if there are people who take the sport to a whole other level. They don't have to be mixed together. There are other courts, there are other servers.

I've never said the system is perfect, but I do think it's helping make a space for people with a similar mindset.

Either you don't get my point, or you're not addressing it on purpose. I don't have a problem with people who want to play the mod in a different way. I literally stated that in my post. What I do have a problem with, is when you say that your server and the bot are designed to help new players, yet in reality they create an environment that hurts the new players' progression and gives them a warped perception of what this mod actually is, for reasons I explained in my previous post.

Once again, if you wanna advertise your server as one for casuals - I don't have a problem with it, go ahead, you do you. But when you also start saying that it's a system designed to help new players, people are gonna call you out on your BS. It's a system designed to suppress and eradicate high scoring players, that's it. And while that can make newbies feel a little better, I've already explained why it also hurts them in the long run.

Also, I don't get the basketball analogy. Do they have courts with robots that kick you out if you score too many times in a row? Didn't know that.

 

[UDrew]

Either you don't get my point, or you're not addressing it on purpose.

Could say the same to you, especially since you didn't really address any of my points.

I don't have a problem with people who want to play the mod in a different way.

I say that because you say things like this:

an environment that hurts the new players' progression and gives them a warped perception of what this mod actually is

You assume certain goals about what others want out of this game. Some people are content with their level of progression, some people just want to mess around. You say you're fine with people playing differently but your posts show you're very adamantly up in arms when it doesn't align with your vision.

Once again, if you wanna advertise your server as one for casuals - I don't have a problem with it, go ahead, you do you. But when you also start saying that it's a system designed to help new players, people are gonna call you out on your BS. It's a system designed to suppress and eradicate high scoring players, that's it.

It's literally called Casual Corner. I don't advertise it as some sort of training ground. I never said that the server will progress players in the way you want. It can be great for new players to get their bearings and even get better, but it's first and foremost a place to try and have fun with some more casual play. New players can definitely use it as a platform to get better, but at a certain point it might be a better idea to begin progressing on another server if your play style no longer aligns with the casual play. I've always said this, so I'm not sure where you get other ideas other than assumptions.

And while that can make newbies feel a little better, I've already explained why it also hurts them in the long run.

Maybe it hurts them for how you think people should be playing the game. This is another example of you saying you don't have a problem with people playing differently, but yet you apparently have a problem with them playing differently. I've said time and time again it's not everyone's goal to get better. Some people are content with the level they're at and just want to have fun. No one is making them play this way. There are plenty of other options out there to play and learn more like you'd like them to.

Also, I don't get the basketball analogy. Do they have courts with robots that kick you out if you score too many times in a row? Didn't know that.

Is this really your only takeaway from the analogy? Does it really matter if it's a robot doing it or not? If you're doing that consistently well against everyone and everyone else is just trying to have fun and not take it super serious, yea they might kick you out.

 

[Faux]

I hope this shitty server dies again. The CA server is much better.

 

[JamJarBinks]

Tough crowd.

 

[Hessu]

So I usually just try to stand aside while you guys need to take a moment to vent about the server, but I feel like I need to address some things:



Like we talked about then, I don't see what real difference it makes if you go 6 player kill streak at the beginning, middle, or end of the round. You're still consistently (because you had to have been warned before) besting 6 other people. So when it comes to helping the enjoyment of 1 person or 6, I'll always choose the 6. Plus if the system was changed for the last man standing scenario you're talking about, it'd be easily exploitable by people just hiding all game until the end until going all out on the enemy team. That's not a strat I want to endorse.



Before you put yourself in that situation, you would have been warned about your behavior at least twice before when you were performing similar kill streaks. There's no way at that point that you can't understand the type of server you're on by that point, so yea, your options would be:

• Practice a different class/build you're not as used to.
• Limit your kills for a bit and yea, probably let the new guys get the best of you here and there. Maybe even help teach them some things.
• Join a different server or log off a bit to cool off.
• Let yourself get kicked.

If you don't like any of those options, then I'm not sure why you want to be on this server in the first place.



This isn't the only goal of the server, some people just want a break from tryharding or just want to try out new builds. Plus, there are frequently good and helpful people who stop by and help new players out.



That might be ideal for you, but that's not the best for everyone and again, it's not everyone's goal to try to get better. Some people just want to play the game casually. I just don't get this whole 'That's how I learned, so that's how everyone should learn' mentality. If people want to learn that way, there are other servers open with plenty of people like you more than willing to teach how you were taught. Casual Corner doesn't stop that, so what's wrong with variety?



This is misleading. Sure, you might have seen it happen, but you're leaving out the part (again) where they were warned at least twice before that. That's why there are warnings first, in the case of lucky grenades and such. Heck, even if you got the luckiest grenade and killed 16 people at once, you would still get just a warning if that was your first offense, but you have to draw the line somewhere and if things keep happening, you gotta start wondering if it's more than luck.



Again, sounds like this just isn't the server for you. In general, people of the same skill level will naturally balance their K/Ds when they're all trying to be effective. So it's not really conditioning them to play differently. Sure, this doesn't hold true for everyone, there can be naturally talented new players, returning players, or even those same new players who have started getting better at the game who will spike up their K/D. So at that point, another server might be better for them, but I don't see how this conditions them to think that's how the game has to be played. As mentioned before, there are other servers that they might be ready to jump to. That's no secret.

As for the population thing, I mean, I don't have a ton to say about that. I'm glad if this server did help keep some of the population, if it did at all, but it was really the goal. Just wanted a more casual server where I could relearn the game at and apparently some others wanted that too. You have to admit though, this can be a very punishing game, especially for new players, so I can understand why some wouldn't want to start off in a server where they end up spending more time in spectator mode than actually playing. If you can't understand that, then I'm not really sure what to tell you.



This honestly made me laugh, so thank you for that! There are no exceptions in the bot, why would I let it warn and kick me but not ban? Why not just exempt myself from all of it? Yes, I have been warned before, never kicked though to the best of my recollection. You can check the Automated Actions channel in the Discord. I don't go through and clean them up to hide my tracks or anything (because again, why not just exempt myself in the first place?). The only thing I see is a warning from Feb 3rd, which yea, sometimes it happens to the best of us. That's why it's not policy to just kick right away.


But anyway, as always with posts from you or anyone else, I appreciate your feedback and I do make improvements to the system where and when I can, but I'm pretty sure you're always to disagree with the core idea of a new/casual player server. I've made my peace with that and I hope you can too.

How can newbies learn to play the game when more skilled opponents have to let the newbies kill them?

 

[NERO]

I'm the sort of player who wants people to play 'seriously' in the sense that they're not holding back and actually try their best. Healthy competition where everyone's respectful to each other by not messing around is what I like. BUT I still think the Casual Corner owner has the right to implement his server as he wishes. I don't understand all this piling up on him over this 'issue'.

No one is forced to play on any server or to play at all. If there's really no other servers available, then either adhere by the ideals of the servers that are populated, don't play at all, or attempt to populate another. Discussing and arguing what works or not is alright but I think most arguments against the server in this thread have hit a limbo.

 

[Insane]

I can fully understand and empathize why a server like this was created I remember getting smashed by veterans back in the day. However, separating a player base in a mod that is fighting for more population is not going to be good long-term. I also think it's not fair to discriminate against veterans who have been supporting this mod for years.

 

[FrenzY]

I think, perhaps instead of banning good players, perhaps force teaming a dominate player to spectate a round or two might be a better way to involve the veteran players.

 

[mage!]

Casual Corner is currently garbage because:

1. It generates very bad players who, when they join any other server, get fucking annihilated by intermediate+ players. This leads to the new player not participating in the game much (long rounds + likely dying near the beginning OR hiding for several minutes then dying) and probably not having fun so they leave and uninstall or go back to CC until they get bored and change games. Intermediate+ players will also likely be toxic to these brand new players who are walking around like legit bots and the new player is getting shit on in game and in chat.

CC caters to casual gamers but doesn't equip them with the relevant skills to play on any other MB2 server. My understanding of MB2 as a game is that it's a Star Wars-themed competitive FPS with some really unique and interesting mechanics and abilities - if I was a casual player, I would be playing Battlefront for a Star Wars fix or any other casual game (Overwatch, Fortnite, CS/Valorant for semi-casual, LoL for non-FPS, etc). The whole point of a server like Casual Corner should be to give new players an area to improve their skills and learn about the game before playing with regular players, unfortunately right now it's a 'noob pen' server where new/bad players can only look to other new/bad players for inspiration and advice.
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2. Because Casual Corner teaches new players very bad habits (e.g. not getting too many kills or risking a kick, only experiencing a low level of play, rarely seeing 'skilled' players, etc) and doesn't really prepare them for higher skill servers, these players won't be able to contribute as much to the community. For example, these players wouldn't be able to offer proper input on potential balance changes, class updates, etc - would you rather have 50 psuedo-bots with trash K/Ds who offer little to the community and will likely leave due to being shitstomped on every non-CC server OR 20 players who are on the road to becoming 'intermediate' and could offer relevant insight from the perspective of a 'newer' player? If we go even further and look at it from a monetary perspective, the newer players who are more 'invested' in the game and the community will be more likely to donate and ensure that MB2 continues for years to come, whereas the CC regulars aka 'special kids class' will be far less likely to donate as they aren't as invested in the game/community.
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3. The worst of all is that CC segregates new players from more experienced players and other community figures so CC now has a reputation as a 'noob pen' instead of a server that generates new 'regulars' for the wider MB2 community. Is there anyone relevant that 'graduated' from CC to be relevant in the community in terms of balance, community content, etc? If veteran players were allowed to play on the server without getting kicked after 3 rounds of autopilot play, newer players could learn from these veterans and form bonds which could improve the MB2 community in the future. I feel that casual players who try MB2 likely do it after watching a video about MB2 or after movies and they want their 'Star Wars fix', so the idea should be to get these newer players invested in the community by improving their skills and relationships with regular community members, because truly casual players will likely find games with better graphics or more suitable gameplay than MB2. Therefore, we should try and encourage new players to interact with regulars to form bonds and become invested in the game and the community, instead of creating an echo-chamber of brand new players whose only experience of veteran players is when they get fucked for 3 rounds before the vet gets kicked.
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If you want to create a server that puts these new players in a fucking noob pen server where if they leave they get decimated, then congrats because you've done well. If you want to encourage newer players to participate in the MB2 community then re-evaluate what MB2 is - a competitive Star Wars-themed FPS game. New players should be exposed to higher levels of play and encouraged to ask questions and learn about the game and community more. The CC bot could flag douches who go on and deliberately noobstomp and these players could be manually dealt with, but a player who nades a choke 3 rounds in a row vs brand-new players shouldn't be banned, it's ridiculous.

The ideal situation should be a server with lots of brand new players and some helpful veterans who are willing to offer advice and interact with these newer players, as well as a couple of admins + the CC flagbot to deter disruptive/toxic/noobstomp players. You could also offer training events and other community events with helpful veterans and new CC players to introduce them to more advanced gameplay and give them a reason to care and invest in the game and its community.

 

[NERO]

I only see this level of flexibility in mental gymnastics when I run into political extremist hives on the internet.

 

[UDrew]

re-evaluate what MB2 is - a competitive Star Wars-themed FPS game.

I could be wrong, but I don't see anywhere that gives that description. What I see front and center is:

Movie Battles is a fast-paced, action packed mod for the award winning Jedi Knight Jedi Academy game, that lets players play and fight in the most iconic battles seen throughout the entire saga!

Sure it inherently has competitive aspects, and people on Casual Corner still compete, but just like my basketball example above I don't see why it has to be at the same level for everyone.

The ideal situation should be a server with lots of brand new players and some helpful veterans who are willing to offer advice and interact with these newer players, as well as a couple of admins + the CC flagbot to deter disruptive/toxic/noobstomp players. You could also offer training events and other community events with helpful veterans and new CC players to introduce them to more advanced gameplay and give them a reason to care and invest in the game and its community.

I guess I'm not sure how your ideal situation is different than what is already happening:

• lots of brand new players? Depends on the day, but check.
• some helpful veterans who are willing to offer advice and interact with these newer players? Check.
• as well as a couple of admins? Check.
• the CC flagbot to deter disruptive/toxic/noobstomp players? Check.

As for the events, I think that's a great idea, but I don't think I'd be the best to host something like that. I think it could be great for folks like you to host something like that to bridge the gap and welcome them to the higher tiers that you want to see them at.

 

[mage!]

Anything above low level play isn't on display in the server as decent players get kicked or warned (then revert to troll/meme plays so there's lots of new players + some hard trolling vets) so new players only see other brand new players OR basic/low level/incorrect play, the instant they go on any other server it's respawn city and either back to CC or leaving the game.

I could be wrong, but I don't see anywhere that gives that description. What I see front and center is:

Movie Battles is a fast-paced, action packed mod for the award winning Jedi Knight Jedi Academy game, that lets players play and fight in the most iconic battles seen throughout the entire saga!

This is a meme response and you know it lol, MB2's gameplay is very competitive at its core and doesn't cater to casual players very well (fairly high skill floor with long respawns/single life for most classes, several instant kill weapons, jedi/sith and to an extent gunners are quite hard to learn as a brand new player, etc). I guess if you assumed that almost every new player is a bonafide casual gamer who is playing just to try out the skins and 'play Star Wars' then Casual Corner is a decent little area for these people to bot around in, but any player looking to actually PLAY the game would probably be stomped on any other server after 'learning the game' on CC.

At the end of the day it's your server and it is what it is, it's just that new players will naturally gravitate towards Casual Corner and, with anyone above meme-level play being warned/kicked, these new players are pretty much trapped on Casual Corner because they are so far below the average skill levels of other MB2 servers. Can't imagine how many brand new players are forced to only play on CC due to being 'skill-locked' out of other servers, or tried other servers after learning the game on CC only to be decimated and leave/uninstall

 

[NERO]

@mage! You're claiming that every new player getting into this game will act exactly as you expect, but you're not considering that your points of view and understanding of people might be very lacking and limited.

 

[Fang]

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