well tbf, my original posting had no comments whatsoever from any of the devs, therefor my point was made once again.
I read it while I was on my phone and only responded to the most recent stuff when I got back because of it. I also didn't respond because I was worried about a fight starting. But I guess I'm going to do it anyway.
(Massive post incoming and I am not going to TLDR)
I agree with some of what you're trying to say in the post. Such as 3, 4, and the 24/7 maps bit. I definitely agree with those 100%. However, on 1, 2, you're flat out wrong. On 5, you're partially wrong.
On 1) We listen to the community all the time and its getting a bit tiring to prove it and when we do listen to the community we get another chunk of the community that says "you didn't listen to us" because the portion of the community we listened to "wasn't the right one" in their opinion. This is a topic we as developers are just never going to win on without the community getting out of their own ass. What I am about to say isn't just directed towards you but everyone since I was one of the developers people keep calling egotistical, and that I don't listen to the community. Even though I am listening to basically everything, just not doing exactly what they want when they want it.
But if you want I'll go through a nice list of things that I did that came from the community directly or from their feedback that I can think of off the top of my head.
- All the way back in Build 19 people were complaining about framerate, spawn killing, and other problems on DOTF. I fixed a lot of performance problems and spawn killing for RC1 (my first release as a team member).
- In RC1 Plasma and I released Enclave. After initial release it became 100% my responsibility. We had some initial feedback about many routes feeling cramped especially for jedi, sith, mandalorian. We had feedback about how the ship itself could have been better, and we had feedback about how campable the upper objective area was. And feedback about other minor things around the map.
- To fix that I redid a good chunk of main and other new routes I added to add more space both vertically and horizontally to give people more room to fight in.
- To fix I added more routes into the objective, while also requesting a feature from coders to allow me to block off certain parts of the map so that it isn't impossible to defend on lower player counts. A coder assisted and you see this feature on other maps as well now.
- To fix Teelos and I redid the ship objective.
- In RC1 I released several duel maps that were well received but some people saw significant performance drops when destroying enough consoles.
- I requested that coders implement the enhanced FX feature in a way that maps can use themselves so that people with good PCs have the option of seeing the better FX. This was implemented and I transferred that to just about every map that needed it for a performance boost across the board in RC2 and onwards.
- In RC1 one of the duel maps I added had some complaints about spawn points. I modified those for RC2.
- In RC2 I made significant changes to the objective and vent system in Comm Tower in response to feedback about the objective being too easy to defend.
- In RC3 I fixed bugs in Tatooine, Death Star, Yavin 4 as a result of feedback from the community with glitches they spotted that we didn't.
- In RC3 I implemented some of the Enclave changes I mentioned earlier, added more fixes and performance improvements to Death Star, DOTF, Tatooine. Again due to complaints about performance, bugs, etc.
- We had several levels with max_qpath errors this was causing install issues for specific clients that a good chunk of us didn't see. I worked with Azu to create a little internal tool to make problem areas easy to recognize
- Since forever people have complained about difficulty with navigating levels. So I worked with Redsaurus to create the minimap system you have now. This involved me doing the minimaps for like 80% of the levels, which probably required at least 100 hours of work on its own because they all had to be hand drawn and tested with some maps requiring up to 3 minimaps that had to be created for each level. I have continuously increased the quality of minimaps I create for new maps as well. I created DOTFv2s minimap at a much higher resolution than anything before it. Resulting in much more detail being included making it more accurate. I also wrote a guide for those in the community on how to create their own.
- People were complaining about lack of promotion around this time. I started showing off more and more developer diaries, and made a trailer for v0.
- In V0 I worked with Zudni to create the little countdown timers you see on maps to give people more clear idea of when certain events and things were going to happen as a response to feedback. Particularly towards bombs on comm tower. It was hard to see if you had enough time to diffuse for example without out. I added these to several maps.
- V0 I implemented more of the enclave changes I mentioned.
- In V0 I fixed some wall bugs and weird things that people could do to pounce on people in Kamino, DOTF, Lunarbase. The DOTF one people thought was overpowered and annoying. And I wouldn't have fixed it without their feedback because I only saw it I think once in-game?
- In v0.1 people were complaining about long load times on maps. So I worked to convert effectively all of the PNG files to TGA. This involved multiple automated batch scripts (as not all images converted the same way) and a lot of double checking to make sure nothing broke. This probably took like 50 hours on its own. I also merged a bunch of PK3s with the help of others to remove duplicate files that could have an impact on loading.
- In V0.1 with Zudni we added the Radarteam flag that is used for carrying datapads to show how an object is tracked on the minimap. Though that feature broke recently, it still was a result of my doing and a result of peoples feedback regarding seeing rebel movements on the minimap.
- People complained about clipping on enclaves ship, so I updated it quite a bit and fixed a bunch of bugs. As well as fixed some bugs on DS.
- In v0.1 I did some massive updates to Jabba. Some of the reasons people didn't play that map was how easy it was for people to bug into areas of the map, how easy it was to get telefragged, and how open the main area was. I adjusted all of those and fixed those complaints. Even though I didn't have to go back and touch a map I never made in the first place.
- In V0.1 I updated tatooine significantly for performance concerns. I redid the terrain entirely to be 1/4th of the amount of detail it was before. I redid all of the behind the scenes VIS, fixed the water layer in the sky that things like mandalorians could abuse the crap out of and was a massive complaint for years. I also added a new route in response to people saying that the main tunnel was easily camped and it made it pretty hard for rebels to push past. I also fixed one of the glitches with the obj ship window that people used to get through and kill people that was a complaint for like 5 years at that point.
- In V0.1 I added Republic Cruiser. Republic Cruiser had already been through some layout revisions, with the near final one resembling DOTFs layout a lot. The map got leaked from a piece of crap beta tester but I decided to take advantage of the situation. I went on a server with a bunch of members of the community that shouldn't have had the map because they wanted to voice concerns about the map before release. I fixed a crap ton of things as a result of their feedback and that lower route area with the elevators? Entirely their idea not mine. I also made door colors more clear to make navigation easier. Good chunk of other ideas for events, and even actual assistance on voice lines came from community members.
- V0.1.2 I did more performance optimizations to tatooine and fixed more as a result of feedback. I also updated some minor things on RC to deal with some of the feedback like: rebels instantly spawning and going straight to the objective room and camping. I did this by blocking off the OBJ room similar to DOTF gen for a period of time.
- V0.1.2 p!ng was having some complaints about performance on his Theed map. So I wanted to help him out. I optimized a crap ton of the map, removing tons of unneeded brushes, redid a lot of clipping, and even recorded this whole thing and put it on youtube so people could see the work that went into doing that.
- In v0.1.9 I worked on an entirely community based project. Kamino revamp. I posted it in the mapping section of the forums and had people give their layout ideas, test the map outside of internal testing, etc. A large chunk of the changes came from the community or were approved and tested by the community.
- In v1 I added a _fancy version of emperor duel due to complaints about performance due to the mirrored floor as well as a fastload version of RC with all the events and stuff removed due to complaints about load times and screenshakes.
- In v1 I finally brought back the heavily requested community favorite map Cloud City.
- In v1 I redid CommTower in response to feedback regarding the elevators being extremely campable and fixed a crap ton of bugs and general complaints about things around the map (such as bumping your head in the vents too much)
- In v1.0.1 I made both teams on CC lose on time as a result of feedback, and blocked off portions of the map when player count is low due to complaints about the map being too large and there being a lot of time wasted.
- In v1.1 I removed reflection on glass in CC rotunda in response to feedback.
- In v1.1 I added the stairway connecting rebel spawn to the upper route because of complaints regarding the elevators (since we couldn't remove them). and shortened the lower route from complaints about it being too long.
- In v1.3.1 I updated Kamino layout again in response to feedback, particularly due to complaints from Qwerty and Moo about the map.
- In 1.4.6 I released DOTFv2. I probably would have never released it if people didn't keep asking spaghetti and I for it. Spaghetti was getting really stressed trying to finish what I had left with everyone asking about it. I had no personal desire to finish it as it was just a source of stress and felt obligated to more than anything. Which is what bothers me so much about the communities response to it. I've never been egotistical about not putting classic version back. I wanted to see DOTF finished but it wasn't a high enough desire for me but I did it for reasons outside of my own wants and desires. For example: Spaghetti is a friend and I wanted to see him less stressed out. So I came back to the dev team from retirement took a load of work off of him. In doing so I did exactly what we have always done: not included a classic version. I also updated the minimap and objective screen with pathways for various routes. I believe Lessen suggested this and I plan on updating other maps with this when we go over minimaps with the new UI.
- In 1.4.7 I updated DOTF further. ~80% of the changes were directly requested by the community, and the other ~20% were ones I did in response to the communities feedback.
- In 1.4.7 I updated lunarbase to increase brightness in response to several community members complaining about several maps being too dark and having to bump up their gamma to compensate. Usually noting Lunar as the main complaint.
- In 1.4.7 I updated several maps in what started as my conquest to knock out a bunch of community requested bugs. CC, RC, Jabba, Theed, Revan, Ravager, RC Bridge fixes were all community requested and I wouldn't have done them without the community requesting it.
- In 1.4.8 I continued fixing things with BOC and coruscant chase. Again things requested almost entirely by the community.
- In 1.4.9 I updated DOTF further, again with almost entirely requested changes (capture timer increase, OBJ capture area updates, removal of clipping in some spots, more optimizations). I also updated hangar as a compromise (players wanted verticality to return, and I didn't want to add catwalk back) which again is a result of feedback.
- In 1.4.9 I updated lunarbase. While this was mostly my redesign, there were elements of it that were requested by members of the community. Examples being updating the visuals, updating the vents to be less confusing, removing stupid jedi jump glitching in the tunnel, etc.
- In 1.4.9 I fixed more bugs requested by community members in CC, Kamino, Star Forge, Death Star. Again things I wouldn't have touched without requests.
Now this is far from everything. These are only the map-related things I could easily remember doing, or were simple enough to look up in the change logs. Without community feedback resulting in me having to go back over old maps, or even other peoples maps, I would have made way more new things or other things that I wanted to do instead. But I chose to take my time and try to improve what we already had based off of feedback. Did I need to do that? No. I did basically all of the listed bits for you guys because you asked me for them or you complained about it at some point over the years. I spent thousands of hours and even my own money to do these things as a result of feedback you all gave me instead of doing something I wanted to do more.
This list doesn't include all of the things I did for the actual gameplay for the mod relating to relaying community feedback to other developers, or even being an advocate for the community on things that they wanted. There are sooooo many community requested things that I still to this day advocate for but we simply don't have the resources to add. This list also doesn't account for the amount of time i spend talking to people on steam, moddb, discord, in-game, and the forums about things which on its own is probably thousands of hours worth of time I just spend communicating with you guys instead of working. I could easily shut that all off and just work on what I want because all of that effort apparently means nothing and I still get "you dont listen!". This community gets FAR more communication with developers than just about every other game out there and you all take it for granted.
Now what are some things am I doing in the future that is the result of community feedback?
- Fixing more bugs around other maps I haven't gotten the chance to get to. (BOC, Mygeeto, Jedi Temple, Lunarbase, Tradefed, etc.)
- Updating DOTF side routes with StarWarsGeeks suggestion as a base
- Updating DOTF secondary rebel spawns because of a suggestion from AgentGibbs.
- Updating DOTF gen room slightly with suggestions from several community members.
- Helping with what I can with UI design (Making sure some community suggestions are accounted for)
- Making tutorials to make it easier to get into the game. (requested by community for years)
- Working on updating player, weapon, etc models to fix performance problems and increase fidelity and fix other issues (such as those requested by Lessen)
And just think. This is just me. And I know for a fact how much certain developers take into account the feedback of others both within the team and with in the community. It is far more than the community would say because they don't see the internals and just make a bunch of stupid assumptions about how things work. So many things are changed because of what the community says to us but because we don't list our sources for where things came from the community just assumes we pull things out of our ass when we don't. Do I really need to start listing which community members each idea came from in order for you to believe us? That would be a stupidly massive pain in the ass. I mean just look at what happened with the projectile speed. Nex is bitching about developers not listening to the community but the entire open beta thread supported increased projectile speeds and so does the poll. So, is that really us not listening to the community or is that you acting like an ass because the community disagrees with you so you shift the blame to the developers instead? While at the same time he didn't bother to provide feedback himself at all.
This all isn't to say we are all perfect unbiased human beings and we are always working on being better but good lord the community isn't doing itself any favors to help us actually do things. Instead of "Hey mace, can you do this when you have the chance" with my response being "Okay sure, i'll add it to the list and try to do it when I have time" I get: "Mace your opinion on this is shit and you should do what I say because I am right and if you don't well then die in a fire." This crap makes me not want to bother at all and really demotivates me and others.
Now onto #2. This is something we have an already do. Ben handles gameplay stuff, Defiant handles everything else from a leadership standpoint. Defiant and ben both have outlined their plans and wishes for the next coming months. We've been running open betas and running polls on several features in recent months and in the past. More so than most periods before. But apparently again, whatever we do is not good enough. I ask people all the time what their opinion on some random ideas I get in discord. Maybe like 2 people respond most of the time. When we ran open beta, we basically got responses from the same 10 people when our community is much larger. If the community wants us to run more polls, more discussion, more open betas, the community has to make it worthwhile for us to do so.
#5 Fixing taunts in FA isn't a large priority with what we have to do. You say you want quality but also fail to realize the limited resources we have and how we have to use those resources to tackle bigger problems than a few taunts.
Then you go on to say that we should focus on quality not quantity. The fucking hell do you think we are doing? Holy jesus this is the most entitled bit of your own post. If I was going for quantity you would be seeing a crap ton more maps than we currently have. You have ZERO clue at all what goes on with the decision making or map making process to even come close to claiming that your view on this is accurate. Did you not even read the evolution of DOTF post? Did you not see how many revisions the map went through prior to being released, and the 3 revisions it has had since release and the at least one more revision it will still have? How in gods green earth is that not working for quality. I could have released the map on its first iteration, never touched it again, and moved on if I was working for quantity. Man oh man this is just making me furious typing about it because of how idiotic such a statement is. And I am not even talking about the revisions dxun saw either. Man if you saw the actual amount of revisions and changes that go into maps on a weekly basis when we are making them, you wouldn't have said what you just said. We also don't just go and redo maps because we feel like it. We redo them because they have problems, and if you want to use the whole bit about listening to the community? Well we did. The majority of the community liked lunarbase changes, and the majority of the community liked DOTF changes even before I improved it even further. I now have people that tell me that didn't like the map originally, after some of the changes I have made it has become one of their more favorite maps. So who exactly do I listen to? Man so many people of the community think that their opinion is the right one and that developers are the egotistical ones when it is definitely the other way around.
Then the little bit about lunarbase and snipers. So I added more cover so that people could be able to jump between cover more easily and so that they have more shelter from snipers, grenades, rockets, etc. While this does have a side effect of also increasing cover for the sniper, it does help both sides. If you think it is a snipe fest now with more cover, less area that you can be shot in, etc then maybe the problem is with snipers and not the map.
This bit right here kinda reminds me of another bit. How often the community incorrectly attributes what the cause of something is. Like people telling me DOTFs framerate is a problem with DOTF only yet go back up and look at the list and look at how much experience I have optimizing levels in JKA. So much that I often optimize levels for other level designers. So with that information, and the fact that I have shown that the performance problems still exist on every map but its slightly less noticeable because DOTF is only slightly more detailed. And instead of the community believing me, the person who made it, who has 15 years of experience with JKAs engine and optimizing things, I am the one that is wrong when I say that models are the cause and we need to work on improving those which will improve the framerate on many other maps that people consider to have low framerate. (Such as Jakku, parts of CC, theed, etc.) The community often thinks that they know more than developers, they can't possibly be wrong, and that the developer using facts and experience equates to them being egotistical. So much to the point that other community members believe the one dumb community member and gang up on the developer. Let me illustrate that point a bit further again referencing the sniper problem. There is the complaint on dxun, theed, jakku, scarif, dotf, lunarbase, cc, etc about how much those maps favor snipers and that its the maps that need to change. Well, the community is missing the common denominator here. Even though all those maps have wildly different layouts and setups, were made by different people, they have one common problem: snipers. The community, and even some developers, are unwilling to accept that it might actually be the sniper that is the problem in this case and not the map. But everything always gets blamed on the level designer so I guess that's fine.
Anyway my hope with this is maybe some people in the community start to understand because you guys have been more ignorant, and more entitled, than any other time I have been on this team. Developers aren't perfect but we all work VERY hard, we do listen to the community more than some of you even deserve over recent months while receiving no credit for doing so, and even after that we will continue working hard and listening to you. We always have, and we always will listen to the community.
Please, many members of the community need to try and put themselves in our shoes.
This is just from last night in general discord. I got no work done because I was busy communicating with various members of the MB2 community last night for AT LEAST 4 hours. That isn't good enough apparently.
