Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.3

Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.3​

Hi Guys, I am Hexodious - In the last few weeks I've taken over as Gameplay Lead for Moviebattles II and its occured to me that we've never actually told you where we are headed or why we make specific changes in regards to gameplay. I'd like to use this as an opportunity to change that for us as a team to be more transparent moving forwards as we look to improve the game throughout future patches. This will also allow you to know what we are looking to change, and what kind of feedback we are looking for.

In 1.4.4 we are looking to freeze a solid core for Jedi/Sith in place so we won't have to touch these mechanics for at least a few major patches - This includes: Saber vs Saber, Saber vs Gun and Force Regeneration. I've been looking at a lot of the feedback we've received for 1.4.3 as well as playing a lot of Jedi/Sith in this build and given everyone's experience with 1.4.3, we want to improve on the mechanics that were introduced to make them smoother and a lot more engaging. The goal for Jedi/Sith is to improve their staying power while reducing their ability to retreat while under pressure. 1.4.3's regeneration mechanic did allow this to some extent but was too punishing for players who were trying to support their team.

Below I will break down the core changes we are exploring for 1.4.4.
Please note all of the below is subject to change before release.

FP Regeneration and Drains
Based on 1.4.3's feedback we will be tweaking the FP Regeneration mechanics so that you don't have to worry about holding block, in fact we encourage it.

We will still have 3 states of FP Drain:

• Defenseless (Saber Down/Melee/Idle/Meditate): Base FP Drains for weapons.
• Autoblock (Running): Increased FP Drains for weapons.
• Block: Greatly Decreased FP Drains for weapons.

And there will still be 4 states of FP Regeneration, but we have modified them slightly:

• Meditate:
  • FP Regeneration: Highest, Transition: Ramps up over time, Restrictions: Stationary.
• Defenseless (Saber Down/Melee/Idle):
  • FP Regeneration: Base, Transition: Ramps up over time, Restrictions: Can't Block.
• Defending (Autoblock/Holding Block):
  • FP Regeneration: Slightly lower than base, Transition: Instant.,Restrictions: None.
• Deflecting (Actively Being Shot):
  • FP Regeneration: Greatly lower than base, Transition: Instant Debuff, Duration: 3 seconds (duration can be refreshed each shot, and FP Bar's hue is darkened to indicate debuff is present), Restrictions: Only applies while holding Block.

This combination of drains and states allow us to still have the benefits of really low FP Drains while blocking but doesn't needlessly punish you for holding block while you are not being shot at, whether you are dueling the enemy saberists or supporting your back line. We haven't got the numbers quite in place yet, but after initial testing this feels much smoother and allows the Jedi to have much more freedom while still pushing towards a more active responsibility to manage their FP.



Sense
Sense is a highly debated force power, many would like the power removed completely while others see it as a staple ability that should not be touched. Based on the feedback we've seen we have decided to keep the ability largely similar to how it is, but adjusting how its activated and the durations. In 1.4.4 Sense will tie more into the FP management direction we want to see Jedi's moving towards by using a similar mechanic to Force Speed, another toggled ability but where the duration is solely based on your remaining FP pool.

• Rank 1: Activation Cost: 15FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 2s of Sense (equal to the current implementation, but you can have it on for longer if you wish to spend more FP).
• Rank 2: Activation Cost: 10FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 3s of Sense (an increase over the current implementation, and you can still choose to have it on longer if you wish to spend more FP).
• Rank 3: Activation Cost: 5FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 4s of Sense (a large decrease over the current implementation, but you can still choose to have it on longer if you wish to spend more FP).

These changes allow sense to still be used as an information gathering tool, but encourages smart use of the ability only having it on for as long as you need. Having sense on for a long time while setting up that ambush will leave you starved for FP, greatly increasing the enemy's chance to counter you.


Wall-grab
This ability is a real life-saver while moving around a map and dropping to lower levels, especially on maps like Deathstar. But there are certain players who like to use its ability to hang onto walls forever, often in unreachable locations that cause it to be used in ways we do not intend or to setup lengthy ambushes. As such, the new wall-grab mechanics will actively drain FP slowly while holding onto a wall, automatically drops you upon reaching 0 FP. Also, wall-grab can no longer be used to regenerate FP after bunny hopping.

These changes will still allow the ability to be used as a safe-fall but should prevent poorly planned ambushes. Players will need to better manage their FP pools by choosing the right moment to setup an ambush.


Saber Perks
We've been here before. While Saber vs Saber perks offer a nice diversity between the styles the Saber vs Gun perks adversely change the gameplay dynamics we'd like to see during Saber vs Gun fights. For this reason Saber vs Gun perks won't be included in future builds. Expect refinements to the Saber System and updated Saber vs Saber perks in 1.4.4.


Deflect
This is another ability that greatly benefits from the reduced Block drains and as such we've made some tweaks while updating the mechanics to be less ping dependent. In 1.4.3 Cyan had the ability to deflect by simply holding attack while blocking, this allowed the player to focus entirely on aiming but was too powerful with continuous FP regeneration (even at slow speeds). We liked the quality of life this provided and have applied it to all ranks of deflect (with the Cyan deflect perk being removed). Deflect is in all cases activated by holding attack while blocking and pauses FP regeneration.

• Rank 1: Rapidly Drains FP while held, Cannot be used inside IDR.
• Rank 2: Slowly Drains FP while held, Can be used inside IDR, Cannot be used inside Flinch range.
• Rank 3: Does not Drain FP while held, Can be used inside IDR, Cannot be used inside Flinch range.

Deflecting fits the Jedi fantasy perfectly and gives them a great way to support allies at range beyond push and sense. Now the Jedi must make an active choice to pause their FP regeneration completely in order to reflect shots at the enemy. This still makes Jedi want to wisely time their Deflects as holding it down during a full barrage will quickly deplete your FP pool, but is much more friendly for players of higher ping. We didn't like how in previous builds deflect could be used to facehug someone to death, and while this issue still remains in the form of random deflects, we are able to minimize it greatly.


What about Gunners?

We are mostly happy with the way a lot of the gun classes work. While there are a few things we'd like to look at *cough* SBD *cough* the following are being changed in 1.4.4:

Projectile Rifle
The initial reason behind the Projectile Rifle FP change was to allow Jedi to survive a pop snipe from around a corner, but pop sniping was very fun to do. In reflection of this we've decided to bring back the protection for running Jedi outside of IDR and allow shot-gun snipes to exist vs running Jedi only. A blocking Jedi will be able to protect against a sniper rifle at any range.

• FP Drain Inside IDR while running: Uncapped.
• FP Drain Outside IDR while running: 40.
• FP Drain Inside IDR while blocking <40.

ARC Westar M5
The ammo on this thing has been too low for too long, we heard you. We are increasing the max ammo capacity of the Westar M5 to be inline with other weapons of its type.

• Ammo 1: From 240 > 360.
• Ammo 2: From 360 > 480.
• Ammo 3: From 480 > 600.

This change is very self-explanatory, we feel that ARCs are in a good place at the moment and are very versatile. But the extremely low ammo count was causing too many issues - especially on higher population servers, where the ARC felt like he couldn't provide supporting cover.

Dodge
While the new dodge mechanic does what we want it to, it feels a bit too cumbersome by forcing you into a movement state based on rank and having to hold a button at the same time. We want Dodge to be used to get through chokepoints and suppressed areas, but not to let you tank huge amounts of shots for free. We also thought it was too hard to glance at your Dodge Points while they were being drawn as small numbers and have re-introduced the Dodge Bar.

In all cases, dodge is activated by holding it and has no movement restrictions.It also cannot be used while scoped.

• Rank 1: Cost: A full bar drains over 1 second. Cannot be used up close.
• Rank 2: Cost: A full bar drains over 2 second. Cannot be used up close.
• Rank 3: Cost: A full bar drains over 3 second. Can be used fairly close.

These changes still allow Dodge to be use as a cover breaker while requiring a manual activation to complete. We wanted to keep the current Disruptors(Stationary/Hitscan) vs Projectile(Mobile/Pop-snipe) balance in Sniper vs Sniper engagements but wanted to still provide an alternative option to fight back. Dodge will allow you break the usual corner-play and press the offensive or fallback into cover while you are being shot at. We are still exploring the Hold mechanic over a form of Toggle, similar to what we've introduced for Sense.

Dash
Bringing dodge into a more manual ability was causing conflicts with Dash and Dodge Points. We want players to be able to Dash freely and not to worry about their remaining Dodge Points, at the same time we didn't like the gameplay double dashing in a row would cause skewing balance in the favour of the Hero. Dash has been changed as follows:

• Rank 1:
  • Dashes a short distance in the current movement direction.
  • 2.5s cool-down.
  • Doesn't share a cool-down with Melee moves.
  • Same activation.
  • Unlimited uses.
• Rank 2:
  • Dodges any incoming blasters for the duration of the dash animation.

The cool-down still allows Dash to be used as an intended quick escape or combat positioning tool but prevents double Dashing to escape instances where you may poorly used the ability. At the same time we didn't want to interrupt fun combos such as Dash into Flying Kick, similar to how Blob and Flying Kick function as independent cool-downs.



Final Thoughts

We are excited to get these changes out to you as soon as possible and are committed to continuing progress of the game. The above items are unlikely to change bar number tweaks, but now that we've been able to give you an insight into the direction we are taking we would love to hear back from you on new features, weapons, abilities and mechanics you'd love to see included into Movie Battles II in future builds following 1.4.4.

 

[RG4]

-About sense-

You are a silly man to be commenting on how sense is OP or needs a change when you single handily unbalanced saber combat in 1.4.3.
Sense never has been an ability that ever required a nerf because it never gave an absolute advantage to Jedi/Sith and more importantly teams at all.
The best thing it did was let you accurately see people's positions,HP, and had no constant noise so you could offer a support role or as an ambusher. Despite that spectator ghosting is quite popular so it nulls even the most hidden of force users with sense 3.

"B-BUT THE INFORMATION!"
Son spectators are more useful to ending a round than a sense 3 user is. Just because you know where the enemy is or you know their HP doesn't mean you're going to instantly kill them with sheer ease, because sense 3 is now deadly sight but better. I can call out people's positions with sense 3 and usually the only victims to getting outplayed are players who don't listen, Sith/Jedi with sense 3 waiting to ambush you, or snipers hiding in a corner to where their Red shimmer won't show up. I told Tempest this and I remain astute in the meaning.
"Why did you give priority over sense when there have been more complaints about Push and Pull for years?"

 

[Lessen]

@CC-1119 "Appo'
Ammo drains for any weapon are less cost-efficient damage-wise if you're using the "power shot", as far as I know. 3x damage for 5x cost actually sounds pretty good, but I don't feel like actually comparing the numbers right now. I know you're the ARC pro here but I've gotta say the M5 sniper, on paper, is really great in the mid-range high-precision support-fire role. Per-shot, it's as strong as a P3, but, as far as I know, it has faster projectile speed and faster fire speed. Smaller projectile size, though. And it has a scope magnification that's great for closer ranges. And, like P3, it's completely accurate in all contexts. It's not the massive punisher that other "snipers" are, it's more like the P3: a really high power, punchy, precise, constantly-threatening, constantly-damaging kind of gun. On paper.

Honestly, if it could fire sniper shots unscoped, I would think people would see it as being bowcaster-tier. I mean. It fires fast-moving P3 shots, and it fires a lot of them, and it reloads from empty in a moment. That being said, does ARC move full speed while scoped? I feel like it does. I feel like sniper ARCs are intended to just run around with their scope always up.

I'm pretty good with P3 but garbage with snipers, for whatever reason, and so far I haven't ever been able to get a ton of mileage out of the M5. I'll definitely give it a ton of effort after the ammo buff, though, since that was a huge limitation on it.

Pulse Nades are an ultra hard counter to droid classes AND they make every other class pretty vulnerable for a while, too, it just takes good teamwork to capitalize on that vulnerability.

I'd totally like for Dex to be cheaper, so I could get max dex max armor max stam M5 sniper.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Honestly, I just don't use the M5 Sniper due to my personal issues with it, not great with sniper weapons/scopes. I know Kael is very good at ARC w/ sniper but it's mostly just down to my personal issues with it. I do think it could do with less ammo drain but I think that's essentially been done with this new update, will have a lot more ammo to put down suppression fire both in regular & scoped/sniper mode.

Pulse nades need to either do some damage or get more for 10points/cheaper for 1. They deal like 20 - 30 damage and unless you get a good follow up on the enemy are basically pointless.

 

[Lessen]

Not that I've ever seen Pulse Nades used super effectively, but, here's some more Pulse Nade hot facts:
- Sonic Nades also do super low damage and focus on creating openings. They're also good, yo.
- Pulse nades can be instantly thrown at max speed with alt fire.
- You can switch-to and throw nades mid-roll with Dex 3.

theoretically those last two points mean that pulse nades are significantly easier to "land well" than frags are, because there's quite a bit less warning.

the nade launcher's purpose is kind of vague to me. It lets you place the explosion really precisely, but the radius is smaller and the stun is lower vs droids, right? One big thing it does is let you sort of use your EMPs as super-expensive, delayed-action anti-Sith concs. And since it costs 15-5, you get two nades AND a nade launcher for the cost of two nades.

I'd like to see some good players do a Delta Force kinda thing where the red murdery guy (Sev) would be a sniper, the green pro guy would be completely EMP nade/launcher focused, the joker demolitions guy would be PLX focused, and the leader guy would... have an EMP PLX shot for emergencies lol

anyway the point would be taking advantage of all the ARC's capabilities via good coordination and defense of each other's vulnerabilities. For instance: EMP nadelaunch everybody and then have Sev snipe them all on the ground for free! Or blow them up!

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Good for you. Unfortunately, it does little to alter your actual arguments.



Survivability. Sense. Does not compute.

The ability to know where the enemy is without being seen yourself is only good for survivability if you intend to come at them from behind or avoid getting attacked (including ambush detection, which is the only real value of that ability). The former doesn't work on all maps and it especially doesn't work if there's an opposing sense user/spectator to root you out. The latter just flat out doesn't work - your team gets slaughtered while you're off hiding, and one of three things happen next:

1. A large force of hostiles tracks you down eventually, possibly aided by their dead teammates or even your own dead teammates getting tired of your timewasting.
2. If you're on the attacking team, the round timer expires.
3. If you're on the defending team, the enemy does the objective.

The only exception is when you're on the attacking team and the enemy either doesn't have the manpower or the teamwork required to block off all possible routes to the objective - I've occasionally seen that happen, a couple of people hold one approach against a superior local force while the rest of the team slaughters any defenders along another route and just bolts for the objective.



Debatable on all counts, but seeing as I'm not massively opposed to the concept of flinching (the implementation has several key flaws that have yet to be addressed), I'll let it slide.



Laughable. Plainly laughable.

Of the three classes you mentioned by name, I feel that Wookiees are by far the least effective - barring the occasional skilled flincher armed with a BC3, your average Wookiee will tend to eat a red swing from most half-competent Sith (including myself) and be quickly forgotten. That much we can agree on, I suppose - though they certainly are on the level of most gunner classes, with the exception of plain soldiers and ETs. (Plain, simple flinching aside, different methods are required, but all the other classes have some kind of trick that allows them to fight saberists more effectively than soldiers - from heroes dashing and P3ing to clone blobs to BH darts, Wookiee bowcasters/rage, the Mando bag of tricks or the dogged persistence of ARC-fu... all a soldier has except flinching is three lives and a limited supply of grenades.)

SBDs are pretty much broken in 1.4. Pre-1.4, you had a choice between being slapped down and slaughtered, or crouching and taking more damage (possibly lethally so) while you threw out a combo or two to kill the SBD. In 1.4, you have to choose between being slapped down and slaughtered, or crouching, being flinched to death, and again being slaughtered. Any half-decent SBD will do this just fine. (Alas, I am not one such SBD - I've always been more of a 'move around, dodge and wither them down' sort of gunner than 'take damage and deal greater damage', so the Empire has very little that attracts me.)

As for droidekas... your remark about 'never-ending stalemate' is probably the most egregious error you've made. Depending on how careful the Jedi is, and how much the droideka runs around, one of several things will inevitably occur:

• The Jedi gets discharged and shot at, repeatedly. This may or may not be fatal - however, it may be a recurring event, and thus, fatal.
• The Jedi runs out of FP and is shot down.
• The Jedi is repeatedly flinched and shot down.
• The Jedi gets tired of chasing the damn thing around and goes back to working on the objective. (This may or may not be fatal for him, depending on his situational awareness and the map in question - the droid might pursue him to the objective and possibly kill him before he realizes what's going on.)
• The droideka runs out of shields to discharge with. If it escapes in time, okay - but if it doesn't, it gets killed, especially if it's fighting against a deka-hunter build like the ones I used to make, with a red or purple speed lunge to close the distance and kill without a second thought. 1.4.3 makes that non-viable, at least for me, because the FP regen changes mean there's no second chances (especially if the droideka does have backup) and, combined with the dueling changes, mean I'm completely useless with that build against anything that isn't a lumbering, overengineered tripod.
• The droideka gets caught by a lucky swing. Whether it's a successful lunge by the Jedi, or a failed/mistimed flinch/discharge (depending on angle of attack) by the droideka, it doesn't matter - the fight is over.

The only way for a stalemate to occur is if both sides tacitly agree to maintain it for fear of giving their opponent a chance to make the kill, and even then it's an unstable equilibrium - if someone else shows up, or one side makes a mistake/gets lucky, the stalemate could be broken even without the round timer looming over their heads.

You very much so know what you're talking about, but allow me to add on to your statements:

Whether a Wookiee kills a Sith is *entirely* in the hands of the Wookiee player, not the Sith. Wookiees run as fast as Sith do in melee, and can outrun Sith using charge. Not to mention, a Wookiee with Bowcaster 3 will drain the FP of a running Sith in only a couple of shots. So the Wookiee can literally kite a Sith safely *forever*. The only reliable method to killing Wookiees, SBDs, and Dekas as Jedi/Sith, are to ambush them. Not to mention, Wookiee is one of the few classes with *guaranteed* damage on a Sith before it dies. I have had Wookiee charge+attack combo do 70 damage to me before I could combo them successfully with yellow.

On the subject of SBD, it is impossible for a Jedi to kill a decent flinch SBD, utterly impossible.

However, Clone is just as bad, and everyone forgets about this class, or seems to believe it is balanced. Clone with flinch is a nightmare to kill without Grip 3/Lightning (and that only works in a 1v1 situation), especially with the regen changes. A clone will almost never miss with their ridiculously fast firing weapon, so trying to regain FP by dodging is impossible, and if you do decide to stand still to try blocking, you get blobbed. If the enemy team has a hero, that blob is your death. If the enemy team has another clone, that blob is your death. Your life is basically in the hands of how well the clone can land a blob, *period*. I have had so many instances trying to kill a Clone who just crouches and sprays back and forth, and I get constantly flinched. Not to mention how effective blobs are against gunners, ions are insane. Stassin seems to think there is strategy to blob whoring, and Clone, I have no idea where he could ever garner that hilariously wrong concept. You cannot out-gun a clone, and you cannot saber one reliably, the only reliable method to killing Clones is with sniper rifles, and if you miss, you're basically dead. Even the *worse* gunners are incredibly dangerous on Clone class, I was fighting someone yesterday named 'MingLee' who basically just held mouse 1 and crouched whenever I got close, and I couldn't kill him, even though he was missing 90 percent of his shots, with the rate of fire on CR3, I'd just get randomly hit. You can't even time your swingblock around the shots because it fires so fast.

 

[S o l d i e r]

I personally think that devs should gather some metadata somehow, if they aren't doing that already. That's the only way to see how balanced/unbalanced things really are. So much feedback from everyone and so many different opinions are adding limitless confusion and chaos to all this. Add to that the unobjectiveness of people who want to see the class they play strengthened and the other classes nerfed, the one-sided feedback from people who saw/look at/are experienced with only one side of the coin and not with the whole picture, the careless feedback, etc., and you get a recipe for disaster. Metadata would enable devs to see the whole picture, and to tweak things according to the statistics gathered. What I mean by metadata is that everything should be collected - the sum of K/D scores of everyone that played every class on every server over a period of time (each class separately), which class killed which class the most, and which class was killed by which the most, what were the means that gave the most kills, and what were the least used skills/skill points/classes/weapons, etc. I don't know if gathering and organising so much data could be done in this game and how much effort it would take, though, or if there are any ways/means to achieve that. This is just a suggestion that could improve the quality of life in this mod.

 

[Tempest]

Okay so, I've been sitting back and reading everything and am going to both address specific points as well as expand/clarify on some things (mostly cause people either haven't read other discussions or have already forgotten). I know there weren't any points going into saber vs saber changes but that's mostly because they haven't been fully tested yet (yay for me indirectly DoS'ing the beta tests with badly implemented stuff!). I don't think there'd be any problem with adding them once there's been an initial test, @Viserys @Hexodious ?

Starting with specifics:

As for dueling I would say return to 1.4.2, It wasn't perfect sure, but 1.4.3 added parries which is a bit pointless, it's just luck based, plus now some styles you can exploit the hell out of with like duels which you can just spam and destroy bp as you don't have a chance to pblock, I get it's supposed to be an aggresive style so maybe it could take more bp drain when doing combos, with cyan you can just hold block and swingblock with single hits to build acm and you will stay at 100bp while overpowering the other person.

Parries were not added. They've always been part of the game (including base JKA). They had very minor (almost unnoticeable drains) prior to this version, so I had been discussing raising them a bit/changing how they worked slightly (i.e. having some scaling based off of ACM). I think having them at an equivalent to half of what a body hit does was too much and have already finished re-writing the adjusted versions of what they were before. That said, I'm pretty sure you're confusing parries with Perfect Parry. With some adjustments, faster styles are going to be based more around parrying/controlling opponents rather than trying to just spam them to death in most cases.

Just an idea for mblocks, instead of it disarming maybe make it so when you land one it staggers (what flinch does) and makes them vulnerable for a short time until they can block again while also doing 25 or more bp damage, just an idea because people say it feels cheap to lose to an mblock

There's also going to be some adjustments to how Mblocking works (i.e. not making it all or nothing with side effects for either result) which I'll go into if/when I have the green-light from Vis/Hex.
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Survivability. Sense. Does not compute.

The ability to know where the enemy is without being seen yourself is only good for survivability if you intend to come at them from behind or avoid getting attacked (including ambush detection, which is the only real value of that ability). The former doesn't work on all maps and it especially doesn't work if there's an opposing sense user/spectator to root you out. The latter just flat out doesn't work - your team gets slaughtered while you're off hiding, and one of three things happen next:

Strongly disagree with this. In most cases when I personally am using Sense, it's to survive while advancing. Knowing class combinations, numbers/locations of saberists, how many/where snipers are positioned, if/how many grenades are being prepped or are possibly going to be ready to be prepped/thrown immediately, and so on are all factors of survivability while moving around, regardless of direction/intention.
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M5 sniper is pretty worthless but might get better because now that we have more ammo, you can actually shoot a few shots as you need, on average, 2 - 3 (20 - 30 ammo) shots to kill unless you are headshotting every shot, which is pretty unlikely. It also doesn't deal enough damage for the ammo drain, you deal the damage of 3 shots for the ammo cost of 5 shots.

First, thanks for detailed input/feedback on ARC in general. Quite a bit of the changes have been taken from those threads/discussions. The ammo change was supposed to already be in (I mentioned this once or twice already) but slipped through :X. Second, I disagree on the effectiveness of the sniper for M5. Sure, it's not a near guaranteed kill if it hits like Proj but it also doesn't require you to be stationary like Ruptor to be effective. It's more of a scoped suppressive fire weapon that can potentially murder people if you're accurate with it (I've loved using it since the changes to ARC, personally).

Pulse nades are pulse nades, way too high a cost for what they do. They deal barely any outright damage and so need a follow up. For 10 points. If you don't follow them up they're basically pointless and you're better off using frag nades. Either give me two pulse nades for 10 pts or give me 1 pulse nade for 4 - 6 points.

It seems like the cost might be slightly too high for Dex/Stamina/Pulse nades but maybe the root issue is how much ammo people actually get in general? Draining a (possibly) full clip of ammo via pulse nade would be a lot more effective if people actually had to worry about the amount of ammo they have more often. Food for thought.

Dexterity is very good but dex 2 is required at a minimum. If you're playing ARC without dex you're basically just playing a worse clone or worse hero depending on your build, the PLX is alright but you're more likely to teamkill by proxy (push from sith) than kill the enemy in an actual game. I'd say give us Dex 1 for free, dex 2 for 5 pts and dex 3 for 15 points. That way you could actually afford a versatile loadout and wouldn't be as costly, (20 vs current 30), you'd also be able to get a pulse nade.

I agree that there's quite a bit about ARC that probably needs to be revamped (even just having Dex1 by default would be a pretty useful thing). PLX is pretty gimmicky but I'm not sure right now what we could do to entirely fix it.
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I honestly think people fail to realise the potential that grip and lightning have on gunners. As well as mind trick and speed.

I'm gonna say it right now as well. The most useful sith and jedi in terms of support right now. I would laugh at if you told me in previous builds due to these force user nerfs lolol
Morro Frost (excuse my spelling I can't recall exact name) is one of the most useful with and agitating against sith to play because he plays the role of support sith with lightning and repulse (no saber required) whilst these other nerds running with sabers barely know the F1 key exists when they buy push lmao.

Similary with jedi, lynt shows that saber defence 0, mind trick, speed (and push I believe) can gain you solo top fragging easy peasy.

I do wonder though if these nerfs have made users use these builds though.
Rip Lynt though, sense 3 for 4 seconds no ninja 4 u

Flinch is fair trade if you ask me for what these force powers have to offer

I think people have been using more force stuff because changes have made them realize that they're actually useful/more effective than before. Also, to clarify, I hope everyone isn't misinterpreting the points on Sense as them having such a short duration. Hex was stating the difference between what you'd get with 20 FP at minimum with the changes compared to how it is on live.

@DaloLorn I actually do similar, I avoid going main now and go generator with hero mostly every time and/or wait for the doors. Suicide main with imperials getting into main first mean I have the entire British wannabe execution squad waiting on their end. Try and dash with a hero and see what happens when muskets and laz0rs come flying into ya face lmao

Not everything is limited to DOTF .
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In general, I'd like to re-state that there's already been a lot of public discussion regarding changes to how some of the force powers work (see my thread as main reference). Some might also be wondering why there wasn't more force stuff included with this. Simple/short answer is amount of time available vs amount/detail of work it'd take to get the force stuff all done alongside the finalizing of sabering mechanics. The change to Push's arc and the adjustments to Sense are relatively simple compared to the rest of what's in mind to be done. They haven't been forgotten/prioritized less though, I assure you.

 

[Lessen]

@S o l d i e r Metadata would certainly tell you something about the... uh... meta, haha, but something that's underused or performs badly according to the data isn't necessarily BAD. It might just be difficult to use well, require teamwork and coordination beyond what people are willing to give, etc.

 

[S o l d i e r]

K/D ratio would be a better indicator.

 

[RG4]

On a off hand topic, there are some fantastic models for alt weapon skins or in general lurking in the MB2 files and from CMP that could be added into a new class or extra models for people to choose from.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

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First, thanks for detailed input/feedback on ARC in general. Quite a bit of the changes have been taken from those threads/discussions. The ammo change was supposed to already be in (I mentioned this once or twice already) but slipped through :X. Second, I disagree on the effectiveness of the sniper for M5. Sure, it's not a near guaranteed kill if it hits like Proj but it also doesn't require you to be stationary like Ruptor to be effective. It's more of a scoped suppressive fire weapon that can potentially murder people if you're accurate with it (I've loved using it since the changes to ARC, personally).


It seems like the cost might be slightly too high for Dex/Stamina/Pulse nades but maybe the root issue is how much ammo people actually get in general? Draining a (possibly) full clip of ammo via pulse nade would be a lot more effective if people actually had to worry about the amount of ammo they have more often. Food for thought.


I agree that there's quite a bit about ARC that probably needs to be revamped (even just having Dex1 by default would be a pretty useful thing). PLX is pretty gimmicky but I'm not sure right now what we could do to entirely fix it.
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Yeah, the scoped M5 is likely to be better with upcoming ammo changes. As said, my main issue with it is not that it's not a clone of the EE-3 but instead that it didn't have enough ammo to put up sustained fire, you'd run out of ammo far too quickly with the old ammo, I think the new ammo with ammo 3 should be more than enough to put down good damage, high rof suppression fire. Even if I won't personally use it simply because I'm bad at sniping.

Yeah, that's another option but honestly at that point, the game becomes more balanced in favour of respawn classes than 1 life classes as the ammo count would be far higher, allowing more suppression fire. I think what you posted in my ARC suggestions thread is probably a better way of handling it. Either that or just give me 2 pulse nades for 10 points/1 pulse nade for 5 points. The main issue is the availability when you also need to spend (atm) 25 - 30 points on dex/stam, at least 12pts on armour and ammo and then a gun. You generally don't have anything left over.

Honestly, I think the PLX is fine as it is. It'll just never find much use since it's a rocket and, unlike mando rocket, cannot be quick deployed with a 2s animation unless it's already equipped. I think setting it up so the PLX is fully loaded when you switch to it could go a long way to improving its usability. In regards to revamps, even just making Dex 1 the default with Dex 2 / 3 as upgrades (5 - 15) would be more than fair.
That way you'd spend 20 points on dex, 15 points on stam (35) while still having points for M5 or Pistols, pulse nade(s) and a decent level of armour & ammo, even just those extra 10 points should be enough tbh.

On a off hand topic, there are some fantastic models for alt weapon skins or in general lurking in the MB2 files and from CMP that could be added into a new class or extra models for people to choose from.

DC-15S skin for westar M5 when plz

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Rockets only serve a purpose for point blank use atm, because they are incredibly slow, and the classes that use them have ez-armor to survive them. I would vastly prefer it if rockets were faster, and had a range-shut off, so anything within 10 feet, the rocket would 'dud', or not even be use-able. I also enjoy the idea of PLX being loaded once, and then keeping the rocket loaded for use later.

 

[Blazer]

Sense is extremely helpful (and in my opinion it's mandatory) when you're a force whore. Simply charging the enemy will pretty much always result in instant death so you need to use planning with sense to put yourself into advantagous ambushing position or areas where you can support your team. The result is many free kills for your friendly gunners, or successful ambushes with lightning/super push/repulse.

Whenever I forcewhore like the time I won the 4v1 in DOTF against 3 gunners and a jedi, i had blue saber, no defense, lightning 3, and no sense. I agree sense is helpful but I play it tactifully and I easily win by just killing jedi with repulse or backwhacking them luckily, and just draining the gunners within seconds with lightning.

 

[Blazer]

Rockets only serve a purpose for point blank use atm, because they are incredibly slow, and the classes that use them have ez-armor to survive them. I would vastly prefer it if rockets were faster, and had a range-shut off, so anything within 10 feet, the rocket would 'dud', or not even be use-able. I also enjoy the idea of PLX being loaded once, and then keeping the rocket loaded for use later.

I also FIND A HUGE PROBLEM WITH ROCKETS! I hate mandos and ARC's because they are one sided with the rocket launcher. With a rocket, they are SUPER USELESS against any jedi or sith because they will just push the rocket, but against gunners, using a rocket is pretty much GG and the rocketeer wins ez pz.
So the problem with rocket is that you can spend points and get a few rockets with ARC/mando to get ez gunner kills with no skill or just wasted your points because theres like 3-5 push jedi on the other team.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I wouldn't call it easy to kill gunners with PLX. You basically have to stand still to use it. Against soldiers, they can just sit there and shoot your face then eat the rocket, against BHs they can get away just fine, Mandos can fly away, Dekas can tank, SBDs can tank. The only class I see rockets really hurting are Commander/ET, but those classes I feel are underpowered anyway. The main issue, imo, is that rockets are useless at uber-long ranges, and annoyingly strong at point blank.

 

[RG4]

I wouldn't call it easy to kill gunners with PLX. You basically have to stand still to use it. Against soldiers, they can just sit there and shoot your face then eat the rocket, against BHs they can get away just fine, Mandos can fly away, Dekas can tank, SBDs can tank. The only class I see rockets really hurting are Commander/ET, but those classes I feel are underpowered anyway. The main issue, imo, is that rockets are useless at uber-long ranges, and annoyingly strong at point blank.

Could do them like base where it's a magazine fed launcher and lower the damage to compensate. IIRC there's methods like that in FA it's just never expanded or really played with.

 

[andrew]

a significant number of words

i dont think nerfing sense will kill the class or anything like that, but i really dont think you're putting forth a very good argument that you're maintaining the support playstyle with sense nerfed

if some aspect of jedi was changed to allow for more supportive gameplay, and i was actually able to just have a passive "enemys doing stuff nearby" indicator id probably be happier than i am now with current sense since it'd just be easier to use. 'being the one in front to dismantle ambushes' is not support gameplay, and you wouldnt dismantle ambushes because yet again you'd stand still while your gunners take care of the problem, pushing when necessary. the exact gameplay jedi already have

again, if the problem is jedi are too easy/survivable, why is the nerf to their support skill and not to their offensive skill? this seems obvious to me

also, as far as map design goes, redesigns of sense will hurt rebels much more than it will ever hurt imperials, as sense is far more powerful for offense than defense imo.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I think the rockets should also have drop to them, rather than being straight laser beams. This would make the rocket much stronger at a distance, and less dangerous to use against Sith/Jedi at those distances.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

also, as far as map design goes, redesigns of sense will hurt rebels much more than it will ever hurt imperials, as sense is far more powerful for offense than defense imo.

This is true but Jedi or Sith seeing don't need to be the same as one another either.

 

[andrew]

This is true but Jedi or Sith seeing don't need to be the same as one another either.

:O

well either way, i just hope sense redesigns take the support aspect of the class into account, instead of the "i perform far too well on open assassinating people" perspective

edit: hard to make that work across every map btw because some maps are actually reb-sided, and some maps are rebels on defense