Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.3

Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.3​

Hi Guys, I am Hexodious - In the last few weeks I've taken over as Gameplay Lead for Moviebattles II and its occured to me that we've never actually told you where we are headed or why we make specific changes in regards to gameplay. I'd like to use this as an opportunity to change that for us as a team to be more transparent moving forwards as we look to improve the game throughout future patches. This will also allow you to know what we are looking to change, and what kind of feedback we are looking for.

In 1.4.4 we are looking to freeze a solid core for Jedi/Sith in place so we won't have to touch these mechanics for at least a few major patches - This includes: Saber vs Saber, Saber vs Gun and Force Regeneration. I've been looking at a lot of the feedback we've received for 1.4.3 as well as playing a lot of Jedi/Sith in this build and given everyone's experience with 1.4.3, we want to improve on the mechanics that were introduced to make them smoother and a lot more engaging. The goal for Jedi/Sith is to improve their staying power while reducing their ability to retreat while under pressure. 1.4.3's regeneration mechanic did allow this to some extent but was too punishing for players who were trying to support their team.

Below I will break down the core changes we are exploring for 1.4.4.
Please note all of the below is subject to change before release.

FP Regeneration and Drains
Based on 1.4.3's feedback we will be tweaking the FP Regeneration mechanics so that you don't have to worry about holding block, in fact we encourage it.

We will still have 3 states of FP Drain:

• Defenseless (Saber Down/Melee/Idle/Meditate): Base FP Drains for weapons.
• Autoblock (Running): Increased FP Drains for weapons.
• Block: Greatly Decreased FP Drains for weapons.

And there will still be 4 states of FP Regeneration, but we have modified them slightly:

• Meditate:
  • FP Regeneration: Highest, Transition: Ramps up over time, Restrictions: Stationary.
• Defenseless (Saber Down/Melee/Idle):
  • FP Regeneration: Base, Transition: Ramps up over time, Restrictions: Can't Block.
• Defending (Autoblock/Holding Block):
  • FP Regeneration: Slightly lower than base, Transition: Instant.,Restrictions: None.
• Deflecting (Actively Being Shot):
  • FP Regeneration: Greatly lower than base, Transition: Instant Debuff, Duration: 3 seconds (duration can be refreshed each shot, and FP Bar's hue is darkened to indicate debuff is present), Restrictions: Only applies while holding Block.

This combination of drains and states allow us to still have the benefits of really low FP Drains while blocking but doesn't needlessly punish you for holding block while you are not being shot at, whether you are dueling the enemy saberists or supporting your back line. We haven't got the numbers quite in place yet, but after initial testing this feels much smoother and allows the Jedi to have much more freedom while still pushing towards a more active responsibility to manage their FP.



Sense
Sense is a highly debated force power, many would like the power removed completely while others see it as a staple ability that should not be touched. Based on the feedback we've seen we have decided to keep the ability largely similar to how it is, but adjusting how its activated and the durations. In 1.4.4 Sense will tie more into the FP management direction we want to see Jedi's moving towards by using a similar mechanic to Force Speed, another toggled ability but where the duration is solely based on your remaining FP pool.

• Rank 1: Activation Cost: 15FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 2s of Sense (equal to the current implementation, but you can have it on for longer if you wish to spend more FP).
• Rank 2: Activation Cost: 10FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 3s of Sense (an increase over the current implementation, and you can still choose to have it on longer if you wish to spend more FP).
• Rank 3: Activation Cost: 5FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 4s of Sense (a large decrease over the current implementation, but you can still choose to have it on longer if you wish to spend more FP).

These changes allow sense to still be used as an information gathering tool, but encourages smart use of the ability only having it on for as long as you need. Having sense on for a long time while setting up that ambush will leave you starved for FP, greatly increasing the enemy's chance to counter you.


Wall-grab
This ability is a real life-saver while moving around a map and dropping to lower levels, especially on maps like Deathstar. But there are certain players who like to use its ability to hang onto walls forever, often in unreachable locations that cause it to be used in ways we do not intend or to setup lengthy ambushes. As such, the new wall-grab mechanics will actively drain FP slowly while holding onto a wall, automatically drops you upon reaching 0 FP. Also, wall-grab can no longer be used to regenerate FP after bunny hopping.

These changes will still allow the ability to be used as a safe-fall but should prevent poorly planned ambushes. Players will need to better manage their FP pools by choosing the right moment to setup an ambush.


Saber Perks
We've been here before. While Saber vs Saber perks offer a nice diversity between the styles the Saber vs Gun perks adversely change the gameplay dynamics we'd like to see during Saber vs Gun fights. For this reason Saber vs Gun perks won't be included in future builds. Expect refinements to the Saber System and updated Saber vs Saber perks in 1.4.4.


Deflect
This is another ability that greatly benefits from the reduced Block drains and as such we've made some tweaks while updating the mechanics to be less ping dependent. In 1.4.3 Cyan had the ability to deflect by simply holding attack while blocking, this allowed the player to focus entirely on aiming but was too powerful with continuous FP regeneration (even at slow speeds). We liked the quality of life this provided and have applied it to all ranks of deflect (with the Cyan deflect perk being removed). Deflect is in all cases activated by holding attack while blocking and pauses FP regeneration.

• Rank 1: Rapidly Drains FP while held, Cannot be used inside IDR.
• Rank 2: Slowly Drains FP while held, Can be used inside IDR, Cannot be used inside Flinch range.
• Rank 3: Does not Drain FP while held, Can be used inside IDR, Cannot be used inside Flinch range.

Deflecting fits the Jedi fantasy perfectly and gives them a great way to support allies at range beyond push and sense. Now the Jedi must make an active choice to pause their FP regeneration completely in order to reflect shots at the enemy. This still makes Jedi want to wisely time their Deflects as holding it down during a full barrage will quickly deplete your FP pool, but is much more friendly for players of higher ping. We didn't like how in previous builds deflect could be used to facehug someone to death, and while this issue still remains in the form of random deflects, we are able to minimize it greatly.


What about Gunners?

We are mostly happy with the way a lot of the gun classes work. While there are a few things we'd like to look at *cough* SBD *cough* the following are being changed in 1.4.4:

Projectile Rifle
The initial reason behind the Projectile Rifle FP change was to allow Jedi to survive a pop snipe from around a corner, but pop sniping was very fun to do. In reflection of this we've decided to bring back the protection for running Jedi outside of IDR and allow shot-gun snipes to exist vs running Jedi only. A blocking Jedi will be able to protect against a sniper rifle at any range.

• FP Drain Inside IDR while running: Uncapped.
• FP Drain Outside IDR while running: 40.
• FP Drain Inside IDR while blocking <40.

ARC Westar M5
The ammo on this thing has been too low for too long, we heard you. We are increasing the max ammo capacity of the Westar M5 to be inline with other weapons of its type.

• Ammo 1: From 240 > 360.
• Ammo 2: From 360 > 480.
• Ammo 3: From 480 > 600.

This change is very self-explanatory, we feel that ARCs are in a good place at the moment and are very versatile. But the extremely low ammo count was causing too many issues - especially on higher population servers, where the ARC felt like he couldn't provide supporting cover.

Dodge
While the new dodge mechanic does what we want it to, it feels a bit too cumbersome by forcing you into a movement state based on rank and having to hold a button at the same time. We want Dodge to be used to get through chokepoints and suppressed areas, but not to let you tank huge amounts of shots for free. We also thought it was too hard to glance at your Dodge Points while they were being drawn as small numbers and have re-introduced the Dodge Bar.

In all cases, dodge is activated by holding it and has no movement restrictions.It also cannot be used while scoped.

• Rank 1: Cost: A full bar drains over 1 second. Cannot be used up close.
• Rank 2: Cost: A full bar drains over 2 second. Cannot be used up close.
• Rank 3: Cost: A full bar drains over 3 second. Can be used fairly close.

These changes still allow Dodge to be use as a cover breaker while requiring a manual activation to complete. We wanted to keep the current Disruptors(Stationary/Hitscan) vs Projectile(Mobile/Pop-snipe) balance in Sniper vs Sniper engagements but wanted to still provide an alternative option to fight back. Dodge will allow you break the usual corner-play and press the offensive or fallback into cover while you are being shot at. We are still exploring the Hold mechanic over a form of Toggle, similar to what we've introduced for Sense.

Dash
Bringing dodge into a more manual ability was causing conflicts with Dash and Dodge Points. We want players to be able to Dash freely and not to worry about their remaining Dodge Points, at the same time we didn't like the gameplay double dashing in a row would cause skewing balance in the favour of the Hero. Dash has been changed as follows:

• Rank 1:
  • Dashes a short distance in the current movement direction.
  • 2.5s cool-down.
  • Doesn't share a cool-down with Melee moves.
  • Same activation.
  • Unlimited uses.
• Rank 2:
  • Dodges any incoming blasters for the duration of the dash animation.

The cool-down still allows Dash to be used as an intended quick escape or combat positioning tool but prevents double Dashing to escape instances where you may poorly used the ability. At the same time we didn't want to interrupt fun combos such as Dash into Flying Kick, similar to how Blob and Flying Kick function as independent cool-downs.



Final Thoughts

We are excited to get these changes out to you as soon as possible and are committed to continuing progress of the game. The above items are unlikely to change bar number tweaks, but now that we've been able to give you an insight into the direction we are taking we would love to hear back from you on new features, weapons, abilities and mechanics you'd love to see included into Movie Battles II in future builds following 1.4.4.

 

[Vongs]

its very clear to me that any posts directed at you are either going to be misunderstood, or dismissed outright because you assume anyone that doesnt think along the same lines as you is either stupid or ignorant.

This. 'nough said in my opinion considering that Stassin further proved that point with his latest dismissive replies.

 

[DaloLorn]

Being willing to try out ideas that seem like they'd be a positive change isn't the same thing as promising everyone they can get what they want/suggest for the game. There's been plenty that I've shot down when talking with people about various features.

And there still are some of yours that I disagree with, but ultimately the difference is in the attitude and the observed results.

Couple of things btw:
1) The FP regen decrease (and window of recovery) being based on being shot was one of the first suggestions I had for it when it first got brought up..
2) Having flinch be based on threshholds so that you have to drain the saberists before you can cancel their swings was also one of my original suggestions for it. Don't know what ever happened to that.
3) If I listened to/implemented everything everyone wanted, nudge would have been gone without consideration given there's a small handful that still want it vs the vast majority that don't. Compromises though.

1) That's probably the best you can do without flat out removing the system. I've heard that the underlying numbers are also a bit iffy, but the numerical side of it seems like something that can be corrected later.
2) Sounds a lot like Force Block. The first thing I'm thinking is that I'd reduce the prominence of speed 3 in my builds if that happened (speed lunge is a fairly binary thing in 1.4, especially 1.4.3, and I still have an unusual amount of trouble getting it to actually hurt the people I hit) - the second is that it could be a decent middle ground between those who love flinch and those who hate it.
3) Caaaan we maybe compromise into having some styles break combos on PBing? (Can't blame me for trying. )

Anyway...ARC with new threshholds for ammo levels is pretty nice.

Amusingly, I've actually switched to ammo 2 in favor of stamina 3 already - right now I usually either die too quickly to run out of ammo or have too few opponents to spend ammo on.

Maybe having it tied to the debuff for being in combat somehow..That way you can still flinch if you are indeed prepared/aware of the hiding saberist while alleviating random single shots being able to stop everything in all scenarios?

Sounds like the sort of thing that'd be hard to balance without having either side cry foul. Might be interesting to hear more about it, though; a few interpretations of the second sentence are already forming in my head.

 

[Stassin]

This. 'nough said in my opinion considering that Stassin further proved that point with his latest dismissive replies.

So you mean you can dismiss my lengthy response to you just because i answered Fou on his insulting level ? Wait, you already dismissed it earlier because it was an opinion opposite to yours. Sounds familiar ?

Gameplay facts are facts, and based on those we are totally open to discussion regarding possible appropriate tweaks to flinch, FP drains, dodge, anything, like Hexodious' OP demonstrates. But removing flinch ? Sure, if you can find a replacement that performs the same function and gives improved feels overall; otherwise no, because it is there for a good reason that many people agree with including many who may not like flinch itself but understand the problem it fixes and want it fixed. Achilles for example doesn't speak of removing flinch but tweaking it.

 

[DaloLorn]

So you mean you can dismiss my lengthy response to you just because i answered Fou on his insulting level ?

Be the better man.

Gameplay facts are facts, and based on those we are totally open to discussion regarding possible appropriate tweaks to flinch, FP drains, dodge, anything, like Hexodious' OP demonstrates. But removing flinch ? Sure, if you can find a replacement that performs the same function and gives improved feels overall; otherwise no, because it is there for a good reason that many people agree with including many who may not like flinch itself but understand the problem it fixes and want it fixed. Achilles for example doesn't speak of removing flinch but tweaking it.

To be perfectly honest, further back-and-forth of this sort is pointless - that's part of why I made that post yesterday, giving you two different ways in which you could outright finish it (explaining who asked for the changes in 1.4+, or just saying "we don't care, shut up"). You chose neither, instead opting for perpetuating this meaningless waste of energy and nerves as both sides still strongly feel they are in the right and that they have the ability to change the other's mind. (By my estimates, I have lost at least one of those beliefs.)

By your own words, those of us who are opposed to your changes are doing it because they A: are putting their own selfish interests above all other playstyles and/or B: have a drastically different perspective on the game, to the point that we must be playing completely different games because there is no way in hell the other side's core arguments could be true. (Hence my remark that in your opinion every EU saberist is shit. The conclusion that you play exclusively in the US is a more likely one than the one that I have accidentally never run into you in some of the most populated EU servers out there... unless you don't play a lot anymore.)

A being A, it can't really be helped on a broader scale - but B does have one solution. If there is truly no other way to win this argument than by hand-holding the other side through an ingame demonstration, then do it. Teach us why we are or aren't wrong; if it works, you instantly get more support. But even if it fails to eliminate opposition, it will at least give them a firmer understanding of things so that they can make more educated suggestions. (Also, on a more selfish note, some of it might rub off in a way that allows pre-1.4.3 performance levels using post-1.4.3 tricks, which has a higher predicted success rate than the alternative solution of 'singlehandedly unlearn and relearn the system'. )

 

[Jediknight Fou]

So you mean you can dismiss my lengthy response to you just because i answered Fou on his insulting level ? Wait, you already dismissed it earlier because it was an opinion opposite to yours. Sounds familiar ?

Gameplay facts are facts, and based on those we are totally open to discussion regarding possible appropriate tweaks to flinch, FP drains, dodge, anything, like Hexodious' OP demonstrates. But removing flinch ? Sure, if you can find a replacement that performs the same function and gives improved feels overall; otherwise no, because it is there for a good reason that many people agree with including many who may not like flinch itself but understand the problem it fixes and want it fixed. Achilles for example doesn't speak of removing flinch but tweaking it.

Maybe it was a bit insulting, but you shouldnt wonder, the only thing you do is ignoring ppls opinions, defend without much facts or post inappropriate comments.
The only dev here who is ready for discussion is tempest.
So many ppl wanted this unbalanced shit of flinch?
There only few, almost no people who defend it, but ingame i saw many who are already annoyed by this crap.
Good fine, if you want drive away more people let this unbalanced trash in, but for me it seems no Devsaberist was involved in the creation of this autoprotection, because thats what it is just cheap bullshit.
If you think about it it prevents you from swinging, does anything prevent a gunner from shooting? Not really.
Its prevent a saberist from using his saber and encourage forcewhoring since 1.4 and than the only thing which comes to your mind is nerfing forcepowers.
Now deflect, the best thing which prevents a gunner from facehug you an spam his blaster, gets nerfed too? Ridicoulus and poor.

 

[andrew]

The only dev here who is ready for discussion is tempest.

if u mention tempest, he's just going to throw another back handed insult at tempest

do not let stassin bully tempest!!

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Maybe it was a bit insulting, but you shouldnt wonder, the only thing you do is ignoring ppls opinions, defend without much facts or post inappropriate comments.
The only dev here who is ready for discussion is tempest.
So many ppl wanted this unbalanced shit of flinch?
There only few, almost no people who defend it, but ingame i saw many who are already annoyed by this crap.
Good fine, if you want drive away more people let this unbalanced trash in, but for me it seems no Devsaberist was involved in the creation of this autoprotection, because thats what it is just cheap bullshit.
If you think about it it prevents you from swinging, does anything prevent a gunner from shooting? Not really.
Its prevent a saberist from using his saber and encourage forcewhoring since 1.4 and than the only thing which comes to your mind is nerfing forcepowers.
Now deflect, the best thing which prevents a gunner from facehug you an spam his blaster, gets nerfed too? Ridicoulus and poor.

I like how you keep saying "autoprotection", even though that's exactly what saberists have.

Okay, so you don't like flinch, we get it. I do like it because it encourages some actual thinking on saberist's side (my only gripe is that it makes red useless). If you don't like it, please at least try to provide some alternatives or ways to change it (not just remove it), coupled with reasons WHY it should be changed. Right now you are just throwing general statements like "unbalanced shit", "cheap bullshit" and "this crap".

And before you start talking about 3 lives, let me say that I don't like Soldier class as well. In my opinion it is too strong for what it is, and needs to be changed in some way or another. But if we talk about 1-life classes, flinch should definitely stay imo.

 

[DaloLorn]

If you don't like it, please at least try to provide some alternatives or ways to change it (not just remove it), coupled with reasons WHY it should be changed.

Well, there was that alternative heading I proposed, back in the later stages of the 1.4.3 feedback thread (I think). Didn't do much for the 'why' besides 'I think this might be a better solution', but...

But if we talk about 1-life classes, flinch should definitely stay imo.

Not. For. SBD.

(Some of the others are also questionable, like CR3 - but in its defense there have been changes in that one.)

 

[Tempest]

Should I post stuff about the current state of the saber changes in here (buried so far in this rollercoaster of a thread) or get a fresh start and let this one continue mostly along the lines of saber vs gunner/general changes?

 

[DaloLorn]

Probably fresh start.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

I like how you keep saying "autoprotection", even though that's exactly what saberists have.

I do like it because it encourages some actual thinking on saberist's side (my only gripe is that it makes red useless). If you don't like it, please at least try to provide some alternatives or ways to change it (not just remove it)

Yeah the saberist, has to think: where i hide to backstab and which forcepower should i use lightning or push...or maybe pull?
There is nothing else to think, because you cant do anything against flinch besides forcespamming or just hide.
Confronting a gunner face to face is pointless suicide, because you cant swing it doesnt matter what you do, if only one blastershot hits you, you get flinched and its over.
There is no skill on both sides needed just luck and the saberist really needs much of it and this kind of random combat is just crap.
Yep and red was my favorite style against gunners, farewell red, it seems forever.
Like i said it encourages forcespamming, before 1.4 i never saw this much forcespamming.
Many other people, even myself suggested few things months ago (which doesnt involved removing flinch), if they not even get considered/discussed its not our fault.

 

[SK5]

If you think about it it prevents you from swinging, does anything prevent a gunner from shooting? Not really.

"Lighting"

 

[Jediknight Fou]

"Lighting"

Only for reb side, Jedi have nothing like this.
And if a sith is close enough to use this its often the gunners fault.
Since flinch is in mb2 they rushing at saberists and if they get killed with the force, they rage and demand nerf.

Since 1.4 i always play sith, with push or pull 3 and lightning with at least 2.
Then i start to hunt the jedis or camp different points to surprise a gunner with lightning so i can easy kill him.
Its not really rewarding, but better than get easy killed by them.
There is no diversity anymore, yellow still remains the only real useful style.
Cyan and purple perks sounded good, but in the end its too expensive.
You dont have much alternatives anymore.

 

[DaloLorn]

"Lighting"

AAAH! THE LIGHT! *shields eyes*

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Should I post stuff about the current state of the saber changes in here (buried so far in this rollercoaster of a thread) or get a fresh start and let this one continue mostly along the lines of saber vs gunner/general changes?

If you have a good write-up in mind, it could be great to put one together elsewhere

Having tried the beta with these changes in. It was a vast step in the right direction for sabering. It's building upon the current implementation while learning from what didn't work. Looking forward to the next patch. The skillcap of Jedi/Sith as well as their potential is much higher than that of 1.4.2 or any other post RC1 patch. It also seemed like the skill floor is slightly lower. This means the entry level will be a bit more challenging, but once mastered, a player has the ability to be formidable.

This is moving us back towards B17 era meta of using utlizing block as much as possible while keeping the game's balance in check by retaining all the good changes that have evened the playing field (Deflect change from active to passive, damage reduction nerfs, G2 saber traces, flinch).

The next patch might not get all the numbers just right on the first go, but it definitely is handling well with very known past issues of Jedi/Sith such as having difficulty with staying power and fighting against multiple targets.

 

[Spaghetti]

With that I think this particular discussion has run its course. Currently we are aiming to release the next build sometime before Rogue One is in theaters. Stay tuned.