Clone Rework Poll

[{Δ} Achilles]

I feel as though Clone is too gimmicky, and currently has nothing to do with the actual movie/series Clones in playstyle/usefulness. This rework I believe would make Clone a versatile class that is not stronger than the 2 live counterparts ET/Com, but simply more adaptable. The ability to be a mobile assault class, a mid ranged support, or a long ranged engagement class would be rather interesting, I think, and make Clone infinitely more enjoyable.


- - - Clone - - -

- Weapons
* * Pistol
Description: Same as current.

* * DC-15s
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 6-7-8
Description: Reskin of E-11

* * DC-15a
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 8-18-24
Description: The long clone rifle, for accurate long-ranged engagements. Slow fire rate, high damage, high accuracy.
Stats:
- Level 1
Damage: 30
Accuracy: Only when standing still, crouched, or walking
- Level 2
Damage: 33
Accuracy: Always accurate
Adds Scope
- Level 3
Primary Damage: 35
Secondary: Charge shot, starting at 30, reaching maximum 100
Accuracy: Always accurate, charge shot only accurate while walking


* * Minigun
Levels: 1, 2
Cost: 20-30
Description: The current minigun, with some tweaks
Stats:
- Level 1
Primary Damage: 20
Accuracy: Always inaccurate, more inaccurate the longer it fires.
Rate of Fire: Current CR2
- Level 2
Primary Damage: 20
Accuracy: Always inaccurate, more inaccurate the longer it fires.
Rate of Fire: CR3
_________
- Abilities

* * Sprint
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 0-6-12
Description: Allows the Clone to sprint *forward* only until his stamina runs out, while sprinting the clone fires inaccurately.
Stats:
- Level 1
The Clone can sprint for short distances at a time
- Level 2
The Clone can sprint for long distances at a time
- Level 3
The Clone can sprint forever, and can use crouch to cancel out of sprint with a roll in any direction.

* * Bash
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 0-8-14
Description: Allows the Clone to bash a target with his rifle-stock, extremely short range.
Stats:
- Level 1
Damage: 6
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Staggers the target for 0.5 seconds
- Level 2
Damage: 14
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Staggers the target for 0.7 seconds
- Level 3
Damage: 20
Cooldown: 4 Seconds
Staggers the target for 1 second

* * Reinforcements
Description: Same as current

_________
- Items

* * Pulse Grenades
Levels: 1, 2
Cost: 6-6
Description: Grants the Clone up to 2 Pulse Grenades

* * Armor
Description: Same as current

* * Ammo
Description: Same as current

 

[swagmaster]

So they can have grapple with it for alt ability and move around more easily. If it is made accurate while running like pistol, and have a little more power per shot than DC-15A, then its an equal choice.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Why would a smaller weapon designed for mobility/assault have a slower rate of fire, and more damage than the DC-15A? Again, what is this terrible logic.

DC-15A needs to be a slow, accurate, long ranged weapon, DC-15S needs to be the fast firing mobile weapon.

 

[swagmaster]

Why would a smaller weapon designed for mobility/assault have a slower rate of fire, and more damage than the DC-15A? Again, what is this terrible logic.

DC-15A needs to be a slow, accurate, long ranged weapon, DC-15S needs to be the fast firing mobile weapon.

"Terrible" Don't worry lad, I'm just thinking your common nonsense logic.

 

[Antraxo]

iirc in the movies/tv-shows the DC-15A and DC-15S shoot hella fast.

@ 3:10

@ 0:45

Also this thread is going downhill.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

That isn't that fast, it looks to me more like a semi-automatic rifle, not the fully automatic nonsense that we have now.

Also, in your second video, the Clone was using DC-15s

 

[Dra-Gon]

Why is it that everyone thinks suppressive fire is any use against snipers and blobs and basically anything that can cause large amounts of damage to a player? The 20-40 HP they lose is a pittance compared to the 60+ damage they'll deal, and people do ....
Not giving the enemy an opportunity to hit you makes it pretty difficult to keep the enemy from advancing towards you.

It's not a guaranteed win. It's a standard tactic (in conjunction with other situational tactics) that punishes them when they get out of cover.
If the enemy is advancing, then there's not much I can write except that you are in the advantage (since he has to get out of cover, not you). Everything else depends on situational tactics.

You haven't seen a proper bouncer, then (there are some ARCs that I make a point of eliminating or avoiding as soon as I see they have pistols) - and even with a staff you can't really guarantee they won't blast your back.

The better ones can semi-reliably drop shots into your back, cover or no cover - the only solutions are heavy evasive maneuvering or hiding in a corner and turning away from the enemy to hopefully intercept their bounces.

I have seen some good ARCs and the point of not taking any damage from bouncing shots is that you evade them in the first place, not that you stand. Also, why should everything be advantageous to sith? Why should they be immune or have easy-to-use counter against everything on long range? Sidestepping bounced shots is pretty easy.

Sonics can be used, even in melee - you won't get the kill yourself, but anyone else in the vicinity will blast the vulnerable Sith into oblivion.

Use the Force, Luke.

I rarely see this happen. (Granted, I rarely even see sticky grenades in action, but even when they do show up...)

Yes, you are correct. Most people don't evaluate their situation well. They get sticky nade and they run for cover or (in worse case) behind allies.

Do you? By your own admission you can't even play anymore.

Was that really my own admission? I just stated that I cannot play at the moment (reason being that I am visiting my family during christmas), not that I cannot play the game anymore.

I am basing that on the thread during 1.3.2 version (here: Poison Dart Visual Effect ) and the fact that damage change is nowhere mentioned in changelogs for versions 1.4 up to 1.4.4.
If you really tested it and I am proven wrong, then I take it back (though that's as much as I am going to argue about this anyway, since it's offtopic)

you conveniently forgot to respond to the parts about the clone dealing damage without his allies and the saberist not having enough time to stop holding down the movement keys and do a quick getup.

I don't see a problem with blobs here though. I see a problem in what the saberist is doing - afterall, it's not the clone's fault you are doing slow getup instead of fast getup because you pressed incorrect keys.

Only if you're a really good grenadier and/or the clones pay no attention whatsoever to the movements of your grenade.

If you only think about nades as something that explodes, instead of area denial and group breaker, then it's no wonder you don't see the advantage in primary frag nades. If you have two solds each with frag, you can even perform a pincer attack with grandes.

You ignored the variant where there is no Jedi - just soldiers versus clones. Disposable ordnance (blobs/grenades) aside, the encounter might even be biased in favor of the soldier - which, by the way, is part of why I'm strongly in favor of replacing blobs - but throw blobs in, and the only semi-reliable answer is to drop your comparably limited supply of secondary frags into the clones' faces at point blank range, all the while dodging enemy blobs (particularly ions) and blaster fire alike.

I didn't think there was anything to argue about. If it's 1 v 1 then secondary frag nade is your win. If it's multiple x multiple, then primary frag nade spam is your win.

The only one of those that genuinely scares me is the SBD, and that's because SBD-vs-saberist has been broken ever since 1.4 released with only a marginal improvement so far.

You guys are just writing down that stuff is broken as if that was a proven fact. I don't see many of the things you list as broken so could you perhaps elaborate more on what is broken, so a solution might be discussed?

Well, as of the time of this post, there is an almost equal division (28 vs 30) between the people who want Achilles' proposal to succeed and the people who want to keep things as-is. (Add in the people who want clones to remain as they are, only without blobs, and it becomes 32 vs 30.) Clearly there is some measure of opposition to the status quo, it's just not sufficient to get a clear victory (or, depending on your interpretation of 'victory', any victory) in the poll.

You are indeed right and I am keeping up with the poll. However the poll is quite badly done. The options are basically this:
1. You agree with my idea
2. You disagree with my idea
3. You agree with my other idea.

Notice that full blob removal is vote by A.I.'s - players who only play SBD and droideka. If you made a new poll for ARC and gave the option "remove pulse nades without any replacement" they would vote for that as well, since it buffs their primary class.

Then you have people like takuta or oddlewad, who vote out of curiosity for the change. But do you guys even realize how much work a complete rework of a class requires? Coding new stuff, balacing values. I doubt the dev team will simply say: "Yay for reskin of E-11" when they pretty much shot down any similar idea with E-11 due to "it's everywhere ATM, we don't need more classes with e-11". So apart from just coding new stuff and balacing it, you also have to come up with a new ideas how the weapons should work so they're not just a c'n'p of other weapons.
The end result would be a change from a balanced class (which did not have any huge change since B-versions) to a few versions of a buggy/unbalanced class which could - or could not - be fun to play.

I also do not see anywhere in the poll options like "Clone needs some change" or "Other". There is either "Achilles' complete rework", "no change", "Blob removal".
I voted for no change because I do not agree with complete rework or blob removal, but as you can see in one of my previous posts, I am not exactly against tweaking clone - e.g. by decreasing the amount of blobs per level, Ion blob effectiveness, adding new weapon, etc.

The poll fails to reflect any other option.

Are you for real?

Well, I'm going to answer only this one from your post, since some of your points I already answered to DaloLorn and other were so bizzare that I have no idea whether you are expecting a serious conversation with me or trying to shut me up or trolling me or you are unable to read.
So for the question if I really mean it - yes, I do. In the 10 years I played this game, the fact that there is no guarantee that you will always end up on the top even if you know everything about the game or you die to some random situation is what makes this game still fun to play and laugh/get angry about.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

And then you have people like Dra-gon that have convinced themselves that Clone is just perfectly fine.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

And then you have people like Dra-gon that have convinced themselves that Clone is just perfectly fine.

...?

I voted for no change because I do not agree with complete rework or blob removal, but as you can see in one of my previous posts, I am not exactly against tweaking clone - e.g. by decreasing the amount of blobs per level, Ion blob effectiveness, adding new weapon, etc.

Clearly, there's not much point left in attempting to continue arguing if you aren't even going to bother reading what people post. Comments like that make it really hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

 

[Crusader]

And then you have people like Dra-gon that have convinced themselves that Clone is just perfectly fine.

His beliefs are commonly held. He has presented both argument and counter-argument in a logical, structured way, and in return you have slated him (and indeed many others) persistently throughout this discussion. Your main thread of argument stems from words like 'gimmick', 'stupid', 'bad-design' rather than actual criticism. When a counter-argument is presented, you ignore it and merely rehash these epithets and reference a listless 'majority'. I am not talking about numbers in a poll. Who are they? What do they play? How long have they played? Are they good at the game?

Players with poor attitudes will vote to remove an otherwise 'healthy' obstacle in the game rather than overcome it by improving.

I hate for it to come to this, but I strongly suggest you revisit your demeanour and how you interact with others in a social setting. It is disgusting, especially when you have the privilege of being in the beta team, and therein an influence on the game's development.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

His beliefs are commonly held. He has presented both argument and counter-argument in a logical, structured way, and in return you have slated him (and indeed many others) persistently throughout this discussion. Your main thread of argument stems from words like 'gimmick', 'stupid', 'bad-design' rather than actual criticism. When a counter-argument is presented, you ignore it and merely rehash these epithets and reference a listless 'majority'. I am not talking about numbers in a poll. Who are they? What do they play? How long have they played? Are they good at the game?

Players with poor attitudes will vote to remove an otherwise 'healthy' obstacle in the game rather than overcome it by improving.

I hate for it to come to this, but I strongly suggest you revisit your demeanour and how you interact with others in a social setting. It is disgusting, especially when you have the privilege of being in the beta team, and therein an influence on the game's development.

He has done no such thing. I presented arguments and counter-arguments which were thoroughly ignored. I grow tired of this annoying bias by people such as yourself. The community is completely separated in this topic. You yourself have been utilizing the same arguments you accuse me of abusing. Such as this:

reference a listless 'majority'. I am not talking about numbers in a poll. Who are they? What do they play? How long have they played? Are they good at the game?

Players with poor attitudes will vote to remove an otherwise 'healthy' obstacle in the game rather than overcome it by improving.

Your suggestion that people whom vote for a rework, that have stated their opinions whom creatures like you so unabashedly disregard, you attack their person, suggesting that because they do not carry a voice as annoying as yours on this forum, that their opinions are invalidated. That they are players with 'poor' attitudes, suggesting that they want something removed because they are bad. As though this is the sole reason why people desire clone to be reworked. When 'good' players like your self, drag-on, and Cotton list enormous resumes of your achievements at utilizing the gimmicks in question, yet fail to even understand simplistic mechanics such as poison, or how difficult it is to push blobs. You are ignorant and hypocritical. I do not give an even remote iota of a damn how good you *think* you are, but your skill level means literally nothing in regards to this issue, it is the average player, the average game of MB2 that needs to be balanced, not your competitive team game that never sees the light of day. Tell me, when was the last time there was a major scrim where any of this matters?

To think that my suggestion would do anything beyond remove blob and would have any sort of affect on the balance as a whole, simply demonstrates the lack of imagination that this community has. Veterans seem to despise any change that hurts their idea of nostalgia and fun, and I truly am sick of it. Trying to fight Stassin daily on saber mechanics that he doesn't even bother to test is one thing, trying to fight half of a community that thinks 'Blobs' are a core mechanic is just absolutely ridiculous. Simply because Blobs have been in the game for a long time, doesn't mean they are a good mechanic. Simply because some people like blobs, doesn't mean they are a good mechanic. Simply because Clone is killable in highly competitive matches, doesn't mean they are balanced.

You who accuse me of using words like 'gimmick' and 'bad-design' when the only defenders of this laughable mechanic consistently refer to it as 'fun' 'fine' and 'balanced' when it is clear that such a mechanic which has the entire community divided as it does, is not 'fine'. Presumption is your biggest failure, impatience is mine.

It is quite obvious that Clone is in need of changes, and as long as there is a dev willing to take the time to try something, it won't hurt to do just that.

 

[Crusader]

It is perfectly rational to favour the input of the experienced over the inexperienced. Without context of who this majority is, the number you quote is inconsequential. I am asking you to answer these questions because they establish context, otherwise the psychology of 'the bad player' holds true and potentially exists among your majority. How do I, or anyone else for that matter, know that the 'average' player exists among this number? If you cannot establish who your majority is, and they will not voice their opinions, then all I can do is ponder its credibility. It is quite obvious that this is not an attack on the person of anyone. Recount through the thread: I see many people speaking against the removal of blobs (by post number and 'likes') and relatively fewer in agreement. This is the only majority readers can go by.

I do not care how good I am, it is not something I have mentioned either. I care about protecting this game from poor decisions.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

It is perfectly rational to favour the input of the experienced over the inexperienced. Without context of who this majority is, the number you quote is inconsequential. I am asking you to answer these questions because they establish context, otherwise the psychology of 'the bad player' holds true and potentially exists among your majority. How do I, or anyone else for that matter, know that the 'average' player exists among this number? If you cannot establish who your majority is, and they will not voice their opinions, then all I can do is ponder its credibility. It is quite obvious that this is not an attack on the person of anyone. Recount through the thread: I see many people speaking against the removal of blobs (by post number and 'likes') and relatively fewer in agreement. This is the only majority readers can go by.

I do not care how good I am, it is not something I have mentioned either. I care about protecting this game from poor decisions.

And I don't know, or care who you are, so why should I take anything you state seriously?

^ Basically the argument you're using. The purpose of this poll was just to show Stassin a point, and it showed that point as I intended. The rest of this was listening to old players whine about change, without even knowing the rest of my ideas for balancing around this. You don't even know about my ideas for DC-15S to have a stun-mode, or how to balance force, or how to make soldier/commander strong with less gimmicks like secondary frag nade, and rally. You're whining about a tiny aspect of a self-contained rework that I posted for various reasons, and I have strong suspicions that most of you are related to Paradine's goons anyway, since I know for a fact that any public nerf to his favorite classes would result in a backlash. Which is precisely why democracy doesn't work.

Now then, if you have any interesting ideas that would benefit the class rework stated at the beginning of this thread, feel free to post them, I'd love to see them. Otherwise, I will likely ignore any 'dont tuch muh blubs cuz dey r baleranced' arguments, as I should have from the very beginning.

 

[Sammy]

I completely disagree with many points of this post. Currently, clone is a unique class and powerful within numbers, as all classes should be. I would agree that clone may be able to carry far too many blobs for the points worth, so possibly reducing the amount of blobs would be a good idea. Other than that, I voted against a clone change because I feel it is not necessary to fully rework the clone class, especially since re-skinning another gun (E-11) just seems unoriginal and bland and would not benefit the class in the slightest.

So, TD;LR version: Clone just needs some minor tweaks in my opinion, not a huge overhaul like you suggest. This thread had derailed enough as it is, it is obvious many disagree with your arguments and countering it with 'i'll ignore you because you restated another person's post' is not a good response. People restate other's arguments because they agree, and usually when people do so it is because they have a point.

 

[Cotton]

And I don't know, or care who you are, so why should I take anything you state seriously?

^ Basically the argument you're using. The purpose of this poll was just to show Stassin a point, and it showed that point as I intended. The rest of this was listening to old players whine about change, without even knowing the rest of my ideas for balancing around this. You don't even know about my ideas for DC-15S to have a stun-mode, or how to balance force, or how to make soldier/commander strong with less gimmicks like secondary frag nade, and rally. You're whining about a tiny aspect of a self-contained rework that I posted for various reasons, and I have strong suspicions that most of you are related to Paradine's goons anyway, since I know for a fact that any public nerf to his favorite classes would result in a backlash. Which is precisely why democracy doesn't work.

Now then, if you have any interesting ideas that would benefit the class rework stated at the beginning of this thread, feel free to post them, I'd love to see them. Otherwise, I will likely ignore any 'dont tuch muh blubs cuz dey r baleranced' arguments, as I should have from the very beginning.

He's probably the best player in this game or among the best 2 players in this game and you, some guy getting pub stomped by clone asks him who he is? Give me a break.

 

[SK5]

I dont have a huge problem with blobs right now but i feel like they are more powerful than what they should be. 1 option could be to make them chargeable like ion blobs.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

He's probably the best player in this game or among the best 2 players in this game and you, some guy getting pub stomped by clone asks him who he is? Give me a break.

And this argument of yours proves my point. You can't take the high ground if you dig it out from under yourself.

I dont have a huge problem with blobs right now but i feel like they are more powerful than what they should be. 1 option could be to make them chargeable like ion blobs.

Chargeable to what effect, exactly? Would you be able to release them early? What would releasing them early do? Would you be forced to charge them fully? How long is it to fully charge them?

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Chargeable to what effect, exactly? Would you be able to release them early? What would releasing them early do? Would you be forced to charge them fully? How long is it to fully charge them?

I imagine there's lots of ways you could handle a charge up function on blobs to make them harder to use effectively.
One possible way for conc blobs:
Full charge is current conc blob with knockdown. Not sure what max duration should be, probably no more than 2-3 seconds at the very most. Specific numbers is what balance testing is for. Blob auto releases at the end of the charge if not manually released.
If released before full charge it is short stagger against targets on ground. This still makes it useful, but not nearly as dangerous as current/fully charged blob. The stagger would interrupt other animations, such as mando rocket windup, allowing blob to retain its utility in stopping ambushes and kamikaze mandos.
Against airborne targets, uncharged blobs would still knockdown. This keeps in the utility of blob being able to knock jetpacking mandos out of the sky, as well as punish sith who jump around too much.
Uncharged blobs could also have slower travel speed to make them harder to hit with.

 

[Alkatjo]

The real question here is why can't clones swing the butt of their guns at enemies close range? If a nasty Sith player is hell-bent on cutting my ass you'd best believe I'm not just going to sit there shooting at him. Most of the time i have to catty corner myself to survive when I've exhausted my blobs on less fortunate targets. A clone shouldn't have to holster his weapon before resorting to CQC, because he's not trained to...

Blobs are fine imo.

 

[andrew]

do you guys not enjoy mb2 anymore or something

if all the suggestions people have been making in the last year were to go through, i think we'd all wake up to find that we arent even playing mb2 anymore

the best things the devs have ever done to improve mb2 is adding stuff like the library and sabering indicators for pblocks and bodyhits. the changes the game needs the most are things to make it more accessible and have higher new player retention, not changing the core gameplay.

if someone quits because they were playing darth maul and they got blobbed too many times and it made them upset, thats not quite a big of a deal as someone who feels the game is inaccessible and they constantly feel lost as to what is going on or what to do

 

[DaloLorn]

Oh fuck it, accidentally clicked on a link and lost over half a page's worth of replies to Dra-Gon. Not going to rewrite that. >.<

Achilles, calm down. You're not doing yourself or any future suggestions of yours any good.

the best things the devs have ever done to improve mb2 is adding stuff like the library and sabering indicators for pblocks and bodyhits. the changes the game needs the most are things to make it more accessible and have higher new player retention, not changing the core gameplay.

And yet, we've been getting a new saber system with every major patch - and that's just the dueling side of things!