Clone Rework Poll

[{Δ} Achilles]

I feel as though Clone is too gimmicky, and currently has nothing to do with the actual movie/series Clones in playstyle/usefulness. This rework I believe would make Clone a versatile class that is not stronger than the 2 live counterparts ET/Com, but simply more adaptable. The ability to be a mobile assault class, a mid ranged support, or a long ranged engagement class would be rather interesting, I think, and make Clone infinitely more enjoyable.


- - - Clone - - -

- Weapons
* * Pistol
Description: Same as current.

* * DC-15s
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 6-7-8
Description: Reskin of E-11

* * DC-15a
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 8-18-24
Description: The long clone rifle, for accurate long-ranged engagements. Slow fire rate, high damage, high accuracy.
Stats:
- Level 1
Damage: 30
Accuracy: Only when standing still, crouched, or walking
- Level 2
Damage: 33
Accuracy: Always accurate
Adds Scope
- Level 3
Primary Damage: 35
Secondary: Charge shot, starting at 30, reaching maximum 100
Accuracy: Always accurate, charge shot only accurate while walking


* * Minigun
Levels: 1, 2
Cost: 20-30
Description: The current minigun, with some tweaks
Stats:
- Level 1
Primary Damage: 20
Accuracy: Always inaccurate, more inaccurate the longer it fires.
Rate of Fire: Current CR2
- Level 2
Primary Damage: 20
Accuracy: Always inaccurate, more inaccurate the longer it fires.
Rate of Fire: CR3
_________
- Abilities

* * Sprint
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 0-6-12
Description: Allows the Clone to sprint *forward* only until his stamina runs out, while sprinting the clone fires inaccurately.
Stats:
- Level 1
The Clone can sprint for short distances at a time
- Level 2
The Clone can sprint for long distances at a time
- Level 3
The Clone can sprint forever, and can use crouch to cancel out of sprint with a roll in any direction.

* * Bash
Levels: 1, 2, 3
Cost: 0-8-14
Description: Allows the Clone to bash a target with his rifle-stock, extremely short range.
Stats:
- Level 1
Damage: 6
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Staggers the target for 0.5 seconds
- Level 2
Damage: 14
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Staggers the target for 0.7 seconds
- Level 3
Damage: 20
Cooldown: 4 Seconds
Staggers the target for 1 second

* * Reinforcements
Description: Same as current

_________
- Items

* * Pulse Grenades
Levels: 1, 2
Cost: 6-6
Description: Grants the Clone up to 2 Pulse Grenades

* * Armor
Description: Same as current

* * Ammo
Description: Same as current

 

[Chorb]

The real issue at hand is flinch, stacking on top of force regen nerf.

Adding it destroyed the balance heavily in favor of gunners, therefore jedi/sith players want easy to use and powerfull tools removed to compensate.
Blobs are the biggest offender for the vision posted in the updates aswell. If you want saberists reflect playstyle to be viable, there shoudl not be instant easy punish tools for doing so. The counterplay to blobs was to lure a clone into close range and juke or melle kick after he fails one. None of them are viable in flinch era. Power of darts is likely to be next on the list for complaints.

 

[DaloLorn]

Eh, darts aren't that bad right now.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

destroyed the balance

Lol what. Saberists are really strong this patch, don't you think? Only fp regen got nerfed, and in return they got all sorts of stuff - immunity to shotgun snipes, blocking that allows you to eat an entire e11 magazine and auto-deflect that makes gunners cry in 1v1 engagements.

 

[Antraxo]

Lol what. Saberists are really strong this patch, don't you think? Only fp regen got nerfed, and in return they got all sorts of stuff - immunity to shotgun snipes, blocking that allows you to eat an entire e11 magazine and auto-deflect that makes gunners cry in 1v1 engagements.

I still have more fear against a good/semi-good gunner than against a jedi/sith
And that's fine many jedi died anyway during battles in the movies/shows mainly against a filthy uncivilized gun *cough cough* order 66 .

 

[DaloLorn]

I still have more fear against a good/semi-good gunner than against a jedi/sith
And that's fine many jedi died anyway during battles in the movies/shows mainly against a filthy uncivilized gun *cough cough* order 66 .

In all fairness, the clones had a substantial advantage in numbers and managed to catch most of them by surprise.

 

[Antraxo]

In all fairness, the clones had a substantial advantage in numbers and managed to catch most of them by surprise.

Just like mb2

 

[TadekRaeod]

I dont have a huge problem with blobs right now but i feel like they are more powerful than what they should be. 1 option could be to make them chargeable like ion blobs.

Chargeable conc blobs would only expose Clone to too much gunfire :/

 

[DaloLorn]

Just like mb2

Not particularly, no?

 

[Jeob]

I'm only curious if anything will really happen to clones after all this. As Dragon said, the poll isn't the best. I chose "keep clone as is" because I don't like the proposed rework by OP, but I'm actually open for changes about clone. A full rework takes too much work and testing and is pretty unnecessary when clones are in a good spot, they only need small changes.

Now if I took the time to post, I'll post my thoughts about clone and mb2 as well. I believe that clones are really easy class and it's one of the best class to use as beginner. I used it non-stop when I started too. Here are the reasons why I believe clones to be very newb friendly:
-they are nearly as durable or more durable as many 1 life classes but they can get 2 lives: hero 100/60 < 80/80 (cause shield is worth more), but they are certainly more durable than the other respawners
-with sprint they are the fastest in the game, excluding jetpack and rolling deka, with this speed they can outmaneuver saber slashes that are impossible for other respawners to avoid and it's really useful in gunfights as well
-large clip and practically unlimited ammo (have you ever run out of ammo as clone with cr1/cr2?)

Amongst experienced players clone is a very strong class as well. I would say they are comfortable, when I play it I feel like I often win fights without putting much effort in it. So yes, comfortable is the word. If we are to change anything about them, they should be the following.

1. Decrease armor: I see 2 options for this.
a) armor lvl 1 remains 80/20, lvl 2 80/35 and lvl 3 80/50, but this would maybe nerf 1 life clone so my other suggestion
b) armor lvl 3 can only be purchased if you go for cr3
comments: clones feel too tanky, and I'm not the only one, someone earlier suggested this as well in this thread, 80/50 is still better than what ETs can get, and is enough to tank ee3 snipe which is really strong for a respawner. Anyway comparing ET and clone in durability is hard, since I believe dodge was supposed to balance things out for ET, but then dodge was made basically useless so in the past few builds clone was definitely more durable, but dodge recently became viable again. While we're at it, I feel like dodge ETs will make their reappearance in this build soon...and they will be more pain in the ass than clones. (spoilers: I'm already using it)

2. Nerf sprint speed: I don't think much reasoning is needed for this, but if we want to make clones weaker then nerfing speed is definitely a good idea. Speed is very important in this game. We could also make up reasons, like it makes no sense that a heavily armored class can run faster than a hero. Sprint speed is higher than hero speed right? I'm not sure.

3. Decreasing ammo: I'm surprised nobody brought this up. CR is one of the few weapons that has 1 shot=1 ammo, and with that a lvl 1 ammo cr can fire more shots than some weapons with lvl 3 ammo (t-21). This leads to the luxury that you can shoot walls(corners) forever and still have enough shots for the real fights. Making clones worry about ammo would definitely increase the skill/focus/brain/effort/w/e required to play clone.
Ammo 2 right now is only necessary for cr3, heck I see players play cr2 with ammo 2 though, and I laugh my ass off when I see that especially when they die with 300-400 ammo left. You either die or win the round long before running out of ammo with cr1/cr2. In my years of experience with clone I'm trying to recall what was the lowest ammo I got to, probably it was around 70 (from 300), in a round where I killed 4-5 players and I was shooting corners for really long times.
Enough of preaching, I have an idea that needs to be presented here. Have blobs drain ammo, like in FA for sbd. 30-50 ammo/blob seems fine, it would fix the ammo issue and would nerf the blob amount as well depending on how much ammo they would take, since some people want this.

About blobs, since this was heavily discussed in this thread. Concussion blobs require skill to land consistently, especially against good players, nothing should be changed about conc blobs imo. Ion blobs on the other hand are maybe too powerful if you compare it to how easy it is to land them. I don't know what's the stun time of it, hardly ever used them recently. All I know is that when they were first implemented they were fine vs non-droids and almost useless against droids. Then they were buffed, they were really good against both non-droids and droids. From what I read in this thread, it seems it got a nerf recently but maybe it's not enough. All in all maybe ion blob's stun time needs to be changed.

That's all, thanks for reading.
EDIT: wow this became a huge post.

 

[TadekRaeod]

1. Decrease armor: I see 2 options for this.
a) armor lvl 1 remains 80/20, lvl 2 80/35 and lvl 3 80/50, but this would maybe nerf 1 life clone so my other suggestion
b) armor lvl 3 can only be purchased if you go for cr3
comments: clones feel too tanky, and I'm not the only one, someone earlier suggested this as well in this thread, 80/50 is still better than what ETs can get, and is enough to tank ee3 snipe which is really strong for a respawner. Anyway comparing ET and clone in durability is hard, since I believe dodge was supposed to balance things out for ET, but then dodge was made basically useless so in the past builds and only recently became viable again. While we're at it, I feel like dodge ETs will make their reappearance in this build soon...and they will be more pain in the ass than clones. (spoilers: I'm already using it)

a)i don't like this :/ armor 3 is 10 points,and for only 25 points of armor it doesn't seem worth it imo.
b)So that would mean "Clone with 80/50 and ONE LIFE".I don't like this one either xd

2. Nerf sprint speed: I don't think much reasoning is needed for this, but if we want to make clones weaker then nerfing speed is definitely a good idea. Speed is very important in this game. We could also make up reasons, like it makes no sense that a heavily armored class can runs faster than a hero. Sprint speed is higher than hero speed right? I'm not sure.

Well,from a lore point of view,Clones are supposed to run in such heavy armor,but that's just lore xd
Anyway,i don't think this should be nerfed either.If i am not mistaken,with Sprint 1 you can only run and not "run 'n gun",so making that even less fast with a fast sprint reduction would make sprint 1 useless and a waste of points,forcing you to buy sprint 2.

3. Decreasing ammo: I'm surprised nobody brought this up. CR is one of the few weapons that has 1 shot=1 ammo, and with that a lvl 1 ammo cr can fire more shots than some weapons with lvl 3 ammo (t-21). This leads to the luxury that you can shoot walls(corners) forever and still have enough shots for the real fights. Making clones worry about ammo would definitely increase the skill/focus/brain/effort/w/e required to play clone.
Ammo 2 right now is only necessary for cr3, heck I see players play cr2 with ammo 2 though, and I laugh my ass off when I see that especially when they die with 300-400 ammo left. You either die or win the round long before running out of ammo with cr1/cr2. In my years of experience with clone I'm trying to recall what was the lowest ammo I got to, probably it was around 70 (from 300), in a round where I killed 4-5 players and I was shooting corners for really long times.
Enough of preaching, I have an idea that needs to be presented here. Have blobs drain ammo, like in FA for sbd. 30-50 ammo/blob seems fine, it would fix the ammo issue and would nerf the blob amount as well depending on how much ammo they would take, since some people want this.

i agree with this,but absolutely not with "have blobs drain ammo".I would be happy with "have blobs drain ammo" if the blobs would be only have one "upgrade",and make you shoot infinite blobs(with a cooldown,ofc)as long as you have ammo,but if i had to buy a limited amount of blobs and also use ammo with them,then i wouldn't play clone for a long while xd

 

[Jeob]

a)i don't like this :/ armor 3 is 10 points,and for only 25 points of armor it doesn't seem worth it imo.
b)So that would mean "Clone with 80/50 and ONE LIFE".I don't like this one either xd

well of course you don't like a) cause it's a nerf xd, but it isn't that bad
no, b) would mean 1 life clone can purchase 80 armor, only respawners would be limited to 80/50
10 points doesn't mean much, given how the points are distributed for clone, people would still buy it

Well,from a lore point of view,Clones are supposed to run in such heavy armor,but that's just lore xd
Anyway,i don't think this should be nerfed either.If i am not mistaken,with Sprint 1 you can only run and not "run 'n gun",so making that even less fast with a fast sprint reduction would make sprint 1 useless and a waste of points,forcing you to buy sprint 2.

Stamina 2 enables you to sprint and shoot with rifle, stamina 1 enables you to sprint and shoot with pistol, you can sprint without stamina too (or lvl 0 stamina). Nobody purchases stamina 1 right now either, it's either stamina 0 or 2. It would be still worth it, cause you would still be faster than without sprint, but your sprint wouldn't be as fast as it is right now.

i agree with this,but absolutely not with "have blobs drain ammo".I would be happy with "have blobs drain ammo" if the blobs would be only have one "upgrade",and make you shoot infinite blobs(with a cooldown,ofc)as long as you have ammo,but if i had to buy a limited amount of blobs and also use ammo with them,then i wouldn't play clone for a long while xd

You wouldn't be purchasing blobs the same way as it is right now. Your ammo would limit the amount of blobs, not how many you purchased. So it would be a X point upgrade and then you're able to shoot blobs for certain amount of ammo of your clone rifle. Of course this causes problem for rebalancing the points of the clone class configuration. The simplest approach would be decreasing clone rifle's ammo.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

People want to nerf Clone without actually nerfing it, and make incredibly tiny adjustments, yet fail to realize that the entire class is really the problem. It has one weapon, and one 'mechanic', they are both one trick ponies.

 

[TadekRaeod]

People want to nerf Clone without actually nerfing it, and make incredibly tiny adjustments, yet fail to realize that the entire class is really the problem. It has one weapon, and one 'mechanic', they are both one trick ponies.

so you don't consider the nerfs that Jeob suggested as nerfs?The ammo nerf suggested is a little more than an "Incredibly tiny" adjustment,since ammo is almost everything for Gunners.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

so you don't consider the nerfs that Jeob suggested as nerfs?The ammo nerf suggested is a little more than an "Incredibly tiny" adjustment,since ammo is almost everything for Gunners.

As I've stated, nerfing the blob amount won't do much, and with ammo 2 you would still be able to afford 3-4 blobs, which would be enough for potentially 4 easy kills, on just one life alone (disregarding even Ion, which is stronger against gunners). Blob itself is just a poorly implemented mechanic, it is an instant-fire long-ranged hard-CC ability with 0 counter play, yet people on these forums appear to see no issue with that.

My suggestion was to do the following:

Remove blobs

DC-15s receives a weapon mode "Stun Function"
Stun Function primary charges shots, without any charge the shots have a medium range, and will stagger targets hit for a short moment. The more you charge it, the more powerful the stun becomes, the less range it has, and the larger the size of the projectile becomes, until you reach a very close ranged shot that knocks-down people. These would be blockable by Jedi/Sith, but not deflectable.

 

[TadekRaeod]

My suggestion was to do the following:

Remove blobs

DC-15s receives a weapon mode "Stun Function"
Stun Function primary charges shots, without any charge the shots have a medium range, and will stagger targets hit for a short moment. The more you charge it, the more powerful the stun becomes, the less range it has, and the larger the size of the projectile becomes, until you reach a very close ranged shot that knocks-down people. These would be blockable by Jedi/Sith, but not deflectable.

I personally think the blobs Jeob suggested with the "ammo consuming" is better than this "Stun Function".By stagger,you mean "the target runs slowly" or "the target stops for a few seconds"?if it's the second,then it would be a less powerful version of the conc blob.
And imagine a scenario where a Sith and a Clone fight 1vs1 ,with this "Stun Function":The clone who is about to use a Stun at close range would not only be blocked by the Sith,but also killed because of it,since(i assume)after the Stun is used the clone guns stops for a few seconds before shooting again(like the blobs).
Blobs won't probably be removed because a)devs decide(and because of that,this poll would be semi-useless) b)the number of people that voted "remove blobs".

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I personally think the blobs Jeob suggested with the "ammo consuming" is better than this "Stun Function".By stagger,you mean "the target runs slowly" or "the target stops for a few seconds"?if it's the second,then it would be a less powerful version of the conc blob.
And imagine a scenario where a Sith and a Clone fight 1vs1 ,with this "Stun Function":The clone who is about to use a Stun at close range would not only be blocked by the Sith,but also killed because of it,since(i assume)after the Stun is used the clone guns stops for a few seconds before shooting again(like the blobs).
Blobs won't probably be removed because a)devs decide(and because of that,this poll would be semi-useless) b)the number of people that voted "remove blobs".

By a stagger, I mean the target is staggered (flinch anim) for a second, and is dealt a small amount of damage (2 or so). The uncharged blast would have reach, the more you charge it, the more powerful it becomes (longer stagger, up into a knockdown), but the less range you have.

The stun function wouldn't be widely used against Sith, you would want to use your bash. However, if the Sith swings, and the Clone fires the stun function, it would still flinch, and if the Sith doesn't swingblock, you can potentially hit them with a fully charged stun shot, then switching to your primary weapon mode to kill them. The rate of fire would basically be the same as Wookiee charge mode.

The Clone would have bash, remember? Which would work like a Wookiee's slap, only with a stagger instead of a knockdown, and a 3-4 second cooldown.



Also, keep in mind, the votes to rework Clone are also votes to remove blobs. Speaking of which, I decided to add a 'Tweak Clone' function, since people whined about it, which will only serve to dilute the 'Keep clone as is' votes.

 

[Fang]

Which should be done this patch, of course when someone cries it comes creeping back anyway.

As for this thread, well............. remains to be seen

 

[SK5]

Chargeable conc blobs would only expose Clone to too much gunfire :/

Thats why it would require to charge it behind cover and not be an instant 1v1 winner like "i hit you with my instant blob and i won because of that" and against a sith you dont have to be in cover unless you want to catch him by surprise

 

[TadekRaeod]

By a stagger, I mean the target is staggered (flinch anim) for a second, and is dealt a small amount of damage (2 or so). The uncharged blast would have reach, the more you charge it, the more powerful it becomes (longer stagger, up into a knockdown), but the less range you have.

The stun function wouldn't be widely used against Sith, you would want to use your bash. However, if the Sith swings, and the Clone fires the stun function, it would still flinch, and if the Sith doesn't swingblock, you can potentially hit them with a fully charged stun shot, then switching to your primary weapon mode to kill them. The rate of fire would basically be the same as Wookiee charge mode.

The Clone would have bash, remember? Which would work like a Wookiee's slap, only with a stagger instead of a knockdown, and a 3-4 second cooldown.



Also, keep in mind, the votes to rework Clone are also votes to remove blobs. Speaking of which, I decided to add a 'Tweak Clone' function, since people whined about it, which will only serve to dilute the 'Keep clone as is' votes.

Ok,let's do maths,based off your rework.I want to create a build for Clone that has enough to counter Sith and Gunners at close range.
I obviously want Bash at max:22 points.58 points remain.
And,of course,Stun at max(i'm going to consider it an 18,or an 2/6/10 in someway,for the DC-15s and not for the DC-15a,since that is long range):18 points.40 points.+6 from the DC-15s,34 points.Since i also would need a good rate of fire,i pick DC-15s at full.21 points in total,and 19 points remain.
I pick sprint 2 for running away in case things get bad,6 points.13 points remain.I pick max ammo,10 points.3 points remain.
Now,what's wrong with this build?
No.Reinforcements.You get one try to do this,while with the current build you can have a reinforcement,decent fire rifle,and both the Stun and bash function COMBINED for 5 points(conc blob),instead of spending 40 points for a knockdown at close range where you risk yourself to gunfire and 1 second of stagger against a Sith.
My point is:This rework would make the clone a not very good class.Of course,there are other possible builds,like a long ranged one,but already 2 classes have long range,sniper-like weapons:ARCs and Heroes(and,in a way,Commandos and Wookies).We don't need a 3rd one.
The Minigun being a seperate weapon is,IMO,useless and costs WAY too much.
This rework,by removing blobs and adding these useless things that other classes already have(with the exception of the minigun)only makes clone a bad class,and not what it's supposed to be.Plus it would take more work for the devs,by adding more "slots" for new weapons,re-skins,and the animation for the bash.All of this "rework suggestion" because blobs are "unbalanced".
Also:In your original post,i didn't see the "remove blobs" thing.And since you never specified in the original posts,the one who are voting "rework clone" aren't actually voting for removing blobs.

Thats why it would require to charge it behind cover and not be an instant 1v1 winner like "i hit you with my instant blob and i won because of that" and against a sith you dont have to be in cover unless you want to catch him by surprise

It's not really an 1v1 "insta winner" xd the Sith can move around,and both(Gunners and Siths)should at least expect a conc or ion blob when they see a clone.charging the conc blob around a corner/in cover would only give the clone disadvantage if he misses.Plus,the Sith/gunner can expect that he's charging the conc blob,making the conc blob less useful since they can dodge out of the way since they see it(ofc,this depends also on the Clone's aim and the gunner/sith ability to dodge).But when it's instantaneous,Clone has the advantage since you can't see him charging it,and you have to expect it.

Tl:dr=With charged conc blobs,the situation against a Sith would be "Sith almost surely wins",when the conc blob is instantaneous,instead,it's more of a "both can win if they play well".

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

So you want to be able to build *everything*? That is why? You're not supposed to be able to get EVERYTHING.