Appo's Arc Feedback for [CURRENT UPDATE NUMBER HERE]

[CC-1119 'Appo']

I'll be updating this thread as updates continue rolling out, will just keep tweaking this OP/posting replies with updates on the glorious state of balance for ARCs and the priority things I think could do with tweaking.

Archive (Fixed issues)

Spoiler

Westar M5 - AMMO​

Westar M5 desperately needs loving ATM, I’ve already posted a suggestion thread for this but will gather what I’ve proposed there in here too.
The reserve ammunition for the M5 is far too low. As it stands, I find myself running out of ammo constantly, the magazine is fine but the reserve just isn't enough. You can't compete with snipers and you can't compete with soldiers at the moment so the M5's place, with or without a sniper scope, is pretty much nonexistent as other classes do it much better and you can just take the dual pistols which are just flat out better than the m5 in terms of stats.

I'd suggest either:
A) reduce the ammo per shot from 2 to 1, then ammo 2 / 3 would be fair because as it stands, you get 18 sniper shots or 180 normal shots with ammo 2 which, unless you're somehow hitting headshots with every single shot, is not enough to kill more than 6 players and that's with a generous accuracy rating of 50%.

B) Increase the reserve ammo. At least 1.5x times what it is now so, 360 for ammo 1, 540 for ammo 2 and around 720 for ammo 3.

Alternatively, you could beef up damage to compensate for low damage overall but, as it stands, I'd generally just take the pistols over the m5 every time if it wasn't for the goddamn awful deadzone of those pistols, you basically have to deliberately misplace your crosshair to fight in close quarters.

Westar M5 – FP Drain​

So I don’t know which developer ARC players have pissed off or if I’ve just magically started doing less FP damage but it seems like the Westar M5 has had a stealth nerf for FP drain, I’m routinely running out of ammo firing at a saberist, the guys simply don’t go down and I’m having to resort to the old tactic of heroes, let them swing and then fire, because I can’t break through their swingblock or drain their FP fast enough anymore. Can we get this looked at ASAP? I don’t want anything crazy like deka firepower vs saberists but definitely should be doing more than 4 - 5 FP per shot, more like 8 or so would be fair.

Clone Pistols (dual)​

The pistols have some serious issues surrounding them, the same as any other pistols in the game. First of all, the animations are super janky and need a touch up honestly. Secondly and more importantly, the convergence on these guns means that they are so useless at close range without swaying your mouse left/right to compensate for each shot. I'd like to see the alternate firemode on these pistols and in fact all pistols not change from firing both pistols to only one but instead adjust the convergence between close range and long range, so you can specify whether your pistols meet their deadzone at fifteen meters or sixty meters. This should make the pistols more enjoyable to use, balance wise though they are fine. DPS is technically higher on pistols than the M5 and the bounce shot is absolutely brilliant for harassing passive sith players.

Animation freeze​

There's an issue, I'm not sure what to call it other than animation freeze, where if an ARC is shot at during a getup animation and continues to be shot at, every shot seems to reset or delay the recovery of the getup. I dunno if it is intentional, but it is not intuitive and can really punish solid plays by penalizing one bad getup with a death as you are functionally stun-locked so long as you are getting hit.

Pulse Nades​

These things need some work I’d say increase their AOE range and add some health damage to it or failing that just make them cheaper. 4/6/8 points would be more than fair for what they are, they’re a worse frag, conc or sonic grenade that require a follow up as they don’t deal raw damage and weaken an enemy for the rest of the round. The most they do is drain your magazine and most of your armour, which a frag grenade would also have done while dealing health damage as well.

I think with a lower price we’d also start seeing more of these because as it stands, the cost is too high and means you’ll be basically useless as ARC once those nades are gone if you do decide to go for a nade build, unless you only take one but at that point they are practically worthless. If you don't get that follow up by risking yourself, it is more often than not a waste of 10pts.

Pulse Underbarreled Launcher​

Same price for the pulse nades should be applied here, maybe combine the two so you can only have two pulse nades in the launcher and 3 in hand, so instead of 4/6/8 it would be 6/8 for 2 launchable nades? Force the launcher to require M5 rank 1 though, so you can't upgrade your M5 to be laser accurate even while sprinting while also having grenades, give it that choice between either the versatility of a nadelauncher or the accuracy of an upgraded M5.

ARC Dexterity Getup Animation Cancel​

So I have an obligation not only to propose changes for things I like, but for things that I know are broken to get fixed. The ARC Dexterity getup animation cancel is one of them. Functionally this is when you press the BLOCK/RELOAD key to switch to a blocking animation while in a getup animation as an ARC. Doing this allows you to instantly get up with a very abrupt snap and no obvious indication to an opponent as to what just happened due to being able to cancel the animation and instantly recover. This is blatantly unintentional and needs to be fixed ASAP.

I do have to stress however, it needs to be fixed without impacting the ability of an ARC to cancel lunges and rolls with an uppercut or a block as both of these are crucial feinting maneuvers to bait Sith into an early swing. The dexterity getup animation cancel however removes most possibilities for a Sith to outplay an ARC player outside of very lucky knockdowns using lightning 3 or pull 3.

"""credentials"""

Spoiler

The second video was edited by @Shady

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Noooooooo. Nuuuuu. It's a weapon that only works if the enemy leaves an opening, and your teammates can create an opening. It's a strategic punishment tool, not comparable with any other weapon except, like, grenades. It's useless if you're on your own. That's fine. We don't need to make everything viable for Rambo-play. This isn't a dueling game. Except on duel servers :^U

If the Sith on the enemy team gets knocked over, that's an opening. If the Sith gets knocked over and then sniped into oblivion, that's infinite openings, and you can basically just eat the enemy gunners at that point, with six rockets.

Right, but as for PLX it basically never works, it's a weapon that lowers your mobility, costs 10+ points, requires a setup period and can be countered by shooting the projectile dead on to detonate it prematurely. Or, more easily, by a sith with Push.

It's a strategic punishment tool sure, but it only works when your enemy team is worse than you. Especially since rebels play on the offensive on almost every map there is, no room for ambushes unless imps push. There's no reason to be using a PLX if your enemy team is on an even skill level, you're just creating another opportunity for the Sith player to push that rocket and kill a few team mates. There is no situation where, in an even competitive match-up, that a PLX would be enough of a reward to justify taking that over an ARC with even a build as 'meh' as M5 Sniper.

Doesn't mean that it isn't great when it works though, just that I feel it's far too hard to get working, I don't use the PLX so at the end of the day it's no loss from my pocket but it is definitely a weapon I think doesn't have enough of a role in MB2. The issue is figuring out what that role is, because I sure as hell have no idea.

Please read again what I wrote, CC-1119 "Appo'. You are answering to a non existing message, which I didnt wrote. I did not want to remove bouncing shots of Clone Pistol, I love it. I said an alternative lvl3, which would grant charged shots if the player buys the ability would may help those, who dont like the bounce shots. I'm not one of them. I just said an alternative (not a replacement, these are 2 totally different things) solution, which wouldnt override the existing lvl3. You can feel yourself "fairly justified" if you want, I did not say that I dont appeciate the power of Clone Pistol. I even said I think its the best pistol ingame. Yet you say I said the opposite, and also say that I dont play this class properly because of this. Seriously? You even quoted I said the opposite what you wrote I said.

A small change for the Clone Pistol would be to remove lvl2, turning lvl3 into lvl2 (for the current points of course); and add a new lvl3 for the (dual) pistol which'd turn the bouncing secondary fire into a charged fire. I

In case you're still unsure of what you wrote, you're suggesting that a single pistol w/ bounce be removed in favour of dual pistols with bounce and then a new level to replace bounce with a charged shot, also known as, simply mirroring the Mando's pistols. Not a fun gameplay mechanic. Not to mention, Dual pistols on ARC for 10pts would be more than a bit broken. I could afford duals. m5 at rank 2 and dex 3 stam 3 armor 3, there's no reason to rebalance classes just because some people can't adapt.

Fire Grenades do not do much damage against any decent player... maybe 10-20 shield damage... even a Soldier can endure at least three times this much. Sonic Grenades force the targets to run back to cover... nothing more. Thats why nobody use these grenades. They're great on paper, but simply dont work ingame, because the targets are not stupid, and they simply run back to safety, without suffering any serious damage or tactical disadvantage. And the detonation time of Concussion Grenade is totally predictable.

They lock down doorways and prevent rushing, they do crazy damage and rushing through them (even as ARC w/ lunge) deals about 30 - 45 damage. Concussion grenades are also only predictable if the person using them is bad, being able to switch grenades prior to detonation makes them incredibly powerful, especially when used by good players.

Lore is not equal balance, but using your words, this is a "class based game mode". Why cant the classes use everything they did in the lore? Wouldnt this be the point of all this? Well, except for Jedi, but this is understandable because of their power.

'I understand this is a class based game mode, but I want classes to all be the same.' FTFY.

There are Mandos that have used sabers, maybe we should start issuing that. Or how about ARCs with miniguns, that'd be fair and accurate to lore right? We could even go a step further and bring Jetpacks for ARCs & Clones since jet-troopers are a thing.

The simple reason, besides the fact that some weapons would be OP on some classes, is that variety is good. People don't want every single class to be the same otherwise they wouldn't enjoy playing MB2, MB2 is an asymmetrically balanced game where the victory is decided first and foremost by skill and secondly by class composition, unless you're spamming 5+ of whatever class, you're not exactly going to be doing well with a bunch of the same class.

... you quote them like hell, but didnt read them. And state false things about what "I said". This conversation is totally pointless in my eyes. Good lock with your ideas. Read next time before quote.

You'll have to either forgive me or move on if you can't stand me removing fluff from your posts before I respond to them. If it's completely irrelevant to the point, I'm not going to engage with it. Save your French for when it's justified.

 

[Lessen]

can be countered by shooting the projectile dead on to detonate it prematurely

i'm dubious that this can be done consistently

Or, more easily, by a sith with Push

already answered this (use SERIOUS teamwork and the PLX rewards)

it only works when your enemy team is worse than you

the enemy team doesn't have to be worse for their Sith to be knocked down once, and all it takes is one knockdown for you to get a good rocket out.

you're just creating another opportunity for the Sith player to push that rocket and kill a few team mates

nobody's forcing you to fire the rocket when it's not a good opportunity. I'm not really talking about random pubs, I'm talking more theoretically, how the game could be played. The game as it is played right now is very low-level, very un-serious. The PLX has very little role in it. I agree with that. But with absolutely no changes to the game, aside from more serious, tightly coordinated players, the PLX becomes (theoretically) VERY powerful.

So I'm fine with it being useless in the context of regular pub-level coordination. It's a specialist tool. It serves a specialized function.

 

[foggy]

LETS GIVE TO ARC UHHH UHHHH A POCKET NUKE!!! AND A POCKET NUKE LAUNCHER!!!!! AND UHHH AND U INVINCIBILITY FOR 3 MINUTES ABILITY!!!! AN DMAKE ARCS FLY!!!! AND ADD GIVE ARCS VIBRATORS!!!!!!
i would like to hear constructive criticism and really looking forward to see this in the next version

 

[Darth Pujge]

LETS GIVE TO ARC UHHH UHHHH A POCKET NUKE!!! AND A POCKET NUKE LAUNCHER!!!!! AND UHHH AND U INVINCIBILITY FOR 3 MINUTES ABILITY!!!! AN DMAKE ARCS FLY!!!! AND ADD GIVE ARCS VIBRATORS!!!!!!
i would like to hear constructive criticism and really looking forward to see this in the next version

I think they should give arc troopers smaller arc troopers that they can throw like grenades at people, and then those smaller arc troopers can get even smaller arc troopers that they can also throw like grenades. :O

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I would just make everything 2 points cheaper for the class, with keeping ammo and armor the same.
That is easier than playing with scripts to find the middle ground for each skill or coming up with new shit to make it more interesting.
That will open up more build options to the class without it directly affecting other classes.

I am still going to push my idea of officer clones though, like Commander Cody.

Spoiler

Give them rally, and clone troopers trade concussive blast and EMP for one single forward spawn.
And the weapon reskins to a DC-15 carbine on the condition players don't have weapon attachments selected and is not rifle 3.

I think they should give arc troopers smaller arc troopers that they can throw like grenades at people, and then those smaller arc troopers can get even smaller arc troopers that they can also throw like grenades. :O

Or this.
I would like this.

 

[Sanic]

y r u talkin about making the nuke gun better when dual pistol still have rly bad firing angles on it

i lose 2 many fight because my aim gud but pistol aim is bad

is same story with grenAED if u use it gud its gud if u bad then it sux

"emp grenade sux omg buff" ok tru i agre but i use emp grenaed 2 scare jedi into pushing me so i shoot them in their nipples ya?

just make that beepin shit and then u kill them works evry tiem ok

srsly in ur op u dont even haev "pistols dont fire at croshair" in there u just have "it looks ugly" wtf r ur priroririties man

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

shitposts are fun.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

BUMP. Logged an issue on the m5 compared to other weapons, it's pretty much a worse e-11 with higher accuracy, that's pretty much its only shtick at the moment and isn't that amazing considering pistols cost about the same and provide higher DPS & damage per shot, only downside to the pistols is that their animation is dogshit.

 

[Damn Polak]

only downside to the pistols is that their animation is dogshit.

i feel you, animations are the reason i stopped using clownpistols

 

[Lessen]

imo, the Westar M5 (even without any attachments) is a fantastic gun, cuz an E-11 with pinpoint accuracy even while sprinting is a fantastic gun. Compared to the pistols though, it only really shines if you have pinpoint accuracy (since its only advantage over the pistols is that it fires at one spot rather than two). It has a slower and less reliable reload relative to pistols, but it also does get those attachment options, letting it either instanade or instantly switch from Ultra-E11 to a decent sniper. I like it.

but yeah I like pistols more, usually. The super high FP drain (although I haven't directly compared the two guns), quick reload speed, and easy access to bounce shots make for a very constantly threatening, pressuring gun that's strong at any range. But the M5 is more reliable for getting consistent headshots.....

(as for pistols not firing at the crosshair, unfortunately at this point you really just gotta learn how to aim with your model and your observation of your previous shots, at close range, cuz the crosshair is insanely misleading.) (although at longer range it's only slightly misleading, and is perfectly serviceable for suppressing snipers from a mile away while dodging, which is the second most-fun-thing-to-do with pistols, the first being fucking up sith.)

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

imo, the Westar M5 (even without any attachments) is a fantastic gun, cuz an E-11 with pinpoint accuracy even while sprinting is a fantastic gun. Compared to the pistols though, it only really shines if you have pinpoint accuracy (since its only advantage over the pistols is that it fires at one spot rather than two). It has a slower and less reliable reload relative to pistols, but it also does get those attachment options, letting it either instanade or instantly switch from Ultra-E11 to a decent sniper. I like it.

but yeah I like pistols more, usually. The super high FP drain (although I haven't directly compared the two guns), quick reload speed, and easy access to bounce shots make for a very constantly threatening, pressuring gun that's strong at any range. But the M5 is more reliable for getting consistent headshots.....

(as for pistols not firing at the crosshair, unfortunately at this point you really just gotta learn how to aim with your model and your observation of your previous shots, at close range, cuz the crosshair is insanely misleading.) (although at longer range it's only slightly misleading, and is perfectly serviceable for suppressing snipers from a mile away while dodging, which is the second most-fun-thing-to-do with pistols, the first being fucking up sith.)

It has significantly lower ROF than the e-11, so while it does have the accuracy - the comparison was mostly to show that its only advantage is its accuracy (at rank 2), at rank 1 it has literally no advantages over an e-11.

I never touch the attachments simply because of the cost implications vs a dexterity build, I only really use the M5 because, as said, the animations on the pistols suck and I prefer carbines to dual pistols tbh. I know tempest has talked about looking into fixing the crosshair placement with pistols so.. hopefully sometime in the future. I'm not touching the pistols while the animations are the same though - they're really, really awkward to watch in third person.

 

[Noob]

One thing to note with westar m5 is that since the reload time is always the same, never bother to reload too early unless you are sure no enemies are around

 

[StarWarsGeek]

I never touch the attachments simply because of the cost implications vs a dexterity build

Really? Because the M5 sniper is particularly amazing, especially with a dexterity 3 build. A pinpoint running accurate semi-automatic pseudo-sniper with high FP drain is extremely good. It's good in firefights for obvious reasons, and snipe shot's drains really make up for M5's lower FP drain against sith.

I never use the grenade launcher either though since it's basically just a worse version of ion blobs on a one life class. Outside of niche meme strategies like stickying a melee wook before he runs into sith, I've found it pretty useless due to the high cost/low reward of pulses.

 

[Lessen]

^ I use that run-and-snipe dex 3 build. Most of the time my aim isn't consistent enough for sniping in general tho. It's fun anyway.

One entertaining aspect of buying the nade launcher is that you can have five ion nades and just chuck em regularly, using the instant-max-strength alt-fire to carpet bomb an area. It's very silly. I'm not sure if it's any good, it stuns/disables/confuses people, and drains their shields, I suppose.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

To be honest, I've never found the m5 snipe to be worth it, because you get the damage of two unscoped shots with exactly the same projectile velocity as regular unscoped shots for the cost of 5 shots in terms of ammo. I can't see it really being worth it all that often, especially since it has implications to stamina or armour overall, which are both required to really stay viable in builds where you are dodging hits.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Well I almost never buy any stamina levels in my ARC builds anymore, so that's 5 to 15 points saved over traditional builds. Faster than default stamina regen isn't required to dodge hits well as long as you're conservative with your jumps and dives. The burst of quick damage from M5 sniper definitely makes up for the loss of ability to continually sprint and jump. You don't need to dodge as many hits if your enemies are dead first.

Also, M5 sniper shots do have increased shot velocity (unless both the ingame library and my sense of time are mistaken).

 

[Noob]

Well I almost never buy any stamina levels in my ARC builds

Yeah same. i find it as useless as ammo 3. i never have to worry about regen even on stam 1

 

[Lessen]

with exactly the same projectile velocity as regular unscoped shots

Just hopped in and tested since this didn't sound right, and my tests indicate that this is completely false. Sniper shots have a significantly higher shot speed. I remember seeing a spreadsheet at some point with shot speeds, but I don't remember all the details. Iirc, arc sniper shots have the same speed as mando sniper shots: slower than proj but still a bit faster than A280.

The damage per-shot is 47, which is (a little more than) what the P3 was before it got nerfed to 40, and the fire rate is substantially faster than that of a P3, so it's kind of a rapid-fire scoped higher-damage P3, which is pretty serious business in theory. P3 has a larger projectile size, though.

As for builds, my sniper build is:
Level 1 M5
Scope
Dex 3
Stam 3
Armor 2 (75)
Ammo 3 (600, or 60 sniper shots)
Or Armor 3 (100) Ammo 2 (480). 48 shots is a decent amount... I think...
Can also do Stamina 2 Armor 3 Ammo 3, although I strongly prefer to have Stam 3 for soloing Sith.

Can also do Armor 2 Ammo 2 if you either really want M5 2 (for accurate suppression) or really want P2 (for poking sith or gunners-in-cover).

I think in theory it's fine to sacrifice armor for a scoped M5 cuz with the high projectile speed the M5 theoretically lets you play safer and secure kills faster. That being said, I personally am not good enough with the scoped M5 yet that I would really consider it my best choice over pistols in the short term.

As an aside, it's the dumbest thing ever that scope "swaying" (while running) is turned on by default. It absolutely MUST be turned off in order to play sniper arc, since the sniper is 100% accurate while moving if you have Dex 3, even with a level 1 M5.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Yeah same. i find it as useless as ammo 3. i never have to worry about regen even on stam 1

You're also not running around dodging shots left and right

My ARC play-style is very much a distraction build - make a lot of noise and put on a show while dodging hits, I can take most classes 1v1 but lack the firepower to reliably win against an E-11 up close even against solds. If their aim is on point, I've got no edge because the M5 isn't all that amazing. I think this is pretty much the way to play ARC most times though because the alternatives aren't really that great or are super situational, nothing quite like pulling a PLX against 12 sith.

Just hopped in and tested since this didn't sound right, and my tests indicate that this is completely false. Sniper shots have a significantly higher shot speed. I remember seeing a spreadsheet at some point with shot speeds, but I don't remember all the details. Iirc, arc sniper shots have the same speed as mando sniper shots: slower than proj but still a bit faster than A280.

The damage per-shot is 47, which is (a little more than) what the P3 was before it got nerfed to 40, and the fire rate is substantially faster than that of a P3, so it's kind of a rapid-fire scoped higher-damage P3, which is pretty serious business in theory. P3 has a larger projectile size, though.

As for builds, my sniper build is:
Level 1 M5
Scope
Dex 3
Stam 3
Armor 2 (75)
Ammo 3 (600, or 60 sniper shots)
Or Armor 3 (100) Ammo 2 (480). 48 shots is a decent amount... I think...
Can also do Stamina 2 Armor 3 Ammo 3, although I strongly prefer to have Stam 3 for soloing Sith.

Can also do Armor 2 Ammo 2 if you either really want M5 2 (for accurate suppression) or really want P2 (for poking sith or gunners-in-cover).

I think in theory it's fine to sacrifice armor for a scoped M5 cuz with the high projectile speed the M5 theoretically lets you play safer and secure kills faster. That being said, I personally am not good enough with the scoped M5 yet that I would really consider it my best choice over pistols in the short term.

As an aside, it's the dumbest thing ever that scope "swaying" (while running) is turned on by default. It absolutely MUST be turned off in order to play sniper arc, since the sniper is 100% accurate while moving if you have Dex 3.

Dex 3, stam 2 - 3, armor 3 are pretty much mandatory for my playstyle but I'll have to try out the scoped M5 again, see what I can put together with it. It's admittedly been a while since I've played MB2 - caught up on other stuff the past few months.

That being said, it doesn't change the fact that the base M5 is still pretty eh compared to even just an E-11, it's noticeably slower firing and costs nearly 2x as much in order to get it into its full power (100 percent accurate while running at rank 2) without the rate of fire or damage to really compete with an e-11 up close.

It's a solid weapon at mid range though, but nothing compared to pistols which are basically just an M5 with the option to bounce shots, 4 extra damage per shot and a rate of fire more comparable to the e-11 - and all for less than the M5 at rank 2 (14 points for duals, 16 for m5 at rank 2).

 

[Lessen]

I actually do still like the base M5, at level 2. I respect your comparisons of it to the E-11 and Pistols, but even with the lower DPS and the absence of bounce shots, it's still the only weapon in the game that can lay down a TOTALLY accurate (single-point) stream of (fairly) high fire rate head-level fire while sprinting. The pistols have more damage per shot and bouncies, sure, but it takes a lot more luck (or a bizarre amount of skill) to land truly successive headshots with the pistols. I think the M5 is more /immediately/ deadly, because it fires a stream at a single point rather than two points. It makes you a lot more likely to land two or three quick headshots (if your aim is already good and you're not relying on the "spread" of pistols to "help" you).

I remember making some seemingly-not-terrible players rage a bit using a level 2 M5 and some really good aim so I was getting constant headshots while dodging around, buuuut I'll have to play around with it more. I think I also remember asking a visibly really-good-ARC why he didn't use the M5 and iirc he said it was too good, lol.

But dualie bounce shots are fantaaaaaaaaaaaaaastic for charging angrily down DOTF Main hurting everyone all the time regardless of cover, and also ofc great against Sith in lots of areas. And dualie fp drain is wonderful. I need to seriously compare dualie fp drain and M5 fp drain to be totally sure though.