Appo's Arc Feedback for [CURRENT UPDATE NUMBER HERE]

CC-1119 'Appo'

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I'll be updating this thread as updates continue rolling out, will just keep tweaking this OP/posting replies with updates on the glorious state of balance for ARCs and the priority things I think could do with tweaking.

Archive (Fixed issues)
Westar M5 - AMMO
Westar M5 desperately needs loving ATM, I’ve already posted a suggestion thread for this but will gather what I’ve proposed there in here too.
The reserve ammunition for the M5 is far too low. As it stands, I find myself running out of ammo constantly, the magazine is fine but the reserve just isn't enough. You can't compete with snipers and you can't compete with soldiers at the moment so the M5's place, with or without a sniper scope, is pretty much nonexistent as other classes do it much better and you can just take the dual pistols which are just flat out better than the m5 in terms of stats.

I'd suggest either:
A) reduce the ammo per shot from 2 to 1, then ammo 2 / 3 would be fair because as it stands, you get 18 sniper shots or 180 normal shots with ammo 2 which, unless you're somehow hitting headshots with every single shot, is not enough to kill more than 6 players and that's with a generous accuracy rating of 50%.

B) Increase the reserve ammo. At least 1.5x times what it is now so, 360 for ammo 1, 540 for ammo 2 and around 720 for ammo 3.

Alternatively, you could beef up damage to compensate for low damage overall but, as it stands, I'd generally just take the pistols over the m5 every time if it wasn't for the goddamn awful deadzone of those pistols, you basically have to deliberately misplace your crosshair to fight in close quarters.

Westar M5 – FP Drain
So I don’t know which developer ARC players have pissed off or if I’ve just magically started doing less FP damage but it seems like the Westar M5 has had a stealth nerf for FP drain, I’m routinely running out of ammo firing at a saberist, the guys simply don’t go down and I’m having to resort to the old tactic of heroes, let them swing and then fire, because I can’t break through their swingblock or drain their FP fast enough anymore. Can we get this looked at ASAP? I don’t want anything crazy like deka firepower vs saberists but definitely should be doing more than 4 - 5 FP per shot, more like 8 or so would be fair.

Clone Pistols (dual)
The pistols have some serious issues surrounding them, the same as any other pistols in the game. First of all, the animations are super janky and need a touch up honestly. Secondly and more importantly, the convergence on these guns means that they are so useless at close range without swaying your mouse left/right to compensate for each shot. I'd like to see the alternate firemode on these pistols and in fact all pistols not change from firing both pistols to only one but instead adjust the convergence between close range and long range, so you can specify whether your pistols meet their deadzone at fifteen meters or sixty meters. This should make the pistols more enjoyable to use, balance wise though they are fine. DPS is technically higher on pistols than the M5 and the bounce shot is absolutely brilliant for harassing passive sith players.

Animation freeze
There's an issue, I'm not sure what to call it other than animation freeze, where if an ARC is shot at during a getup animation and continues to be shot at, every shot seems to reset or delay the recovery of the getup. I dunno if it is intentional, but it is not intuitive and can really punish solid plays by penalizing one bad getup with a death as you are functionally stun-locked so long as you are getting hit.

Pulse Nades
These things need some work I’d say increase their AOE range and add some health damage to it or failing that just make them cheaper. 4/6/8 points would be more than fair for what they are, they’re a worse frag, conc or sonic grenade that require a follow up as they don’t deal raw damage and weaken an enemy for the rest of the round. The most they do is drain your magazine and most of your armour, which a frag grenade would also have done while dealing health damage as well.

I think with a lower price we’d also start seeing more of these because as it stands, the cost is too high and means you’ll be basically useless as ARC once those nades are gone if you do decide to go for a nade build, unless you only take one but at that point they are practically worthless. If you don't get that follow up by risking yourself, it is more often than not a waste of 10pts.

Pulse Underbarreled Launcher
Same price for the pulse nades should be applied here, maybe combine the two so you can only have two pulse nades in the launcher and 3 in hand, so instead of 4/6/8 it would be 6/8 for 2 launchable nades? Force the launcher to require M5 rank 1 though, so you can't upgrade your M5 to be laser accurate even while sprinting while also having grenades, give it that choice between either the versatility of a nadelauncher or the accuracy of an upgraded M5.

ARC Dexterity Getup Animation Cancel
So I have an obligation not only to propose changes for things I like, but for things that I know are broken to get fixed. The ARC Dexterity getup animation cancel is one of them. Functionally this is when you press the BLOCK/RELOAD key to switch to a blocking animation while in a getup animation as an ARC. Doing this allows you to instantly get up with a very abrupt snap and no obvious indication to an opponent as to what just happened due to being able to cancel the animation and instantly recover. This is blatantly unintentional and needs to be fixed ASAP.

I do have to stress however, it needs to be fixed without impacting the ability of an ARC to cancel lunges and rolls with an uppercut or a block as both of these are crucial feinting maneuvers to bait Sith into an early swing. The dexterity getup animation cancel however removes most possibilities for a Sith to outplay an ARC player outside of very lucky knockdowns using lightning 3 or pull 3.

"""credentials"""
The second video was edited by @Shady
 
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DaloLorn

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An alternative to cheaper/better pulse grenades might be more of them - possibly several per skill level. (Edit: That would probably make them like ion blobs... maybe even too much so.)
 
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But pulse nades knock you down and make you unable to shoot until you reload. Plus depending on your weapon the ammo loss can be a significant hit too. And there is the hard counter thing for deka and SBD.
 

Noob

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Wasn't Westar M5 JUST buffed with more ammo?
Pulse Nades aren't meant for standard units but are really meant for Dekas and SBDs, one pulse nade and half a clip of akimbo pistols and you will wreck any sbd/dekas in your way.
Arc is meant to be a niche class, mainly to deal with sbd/deka, but is also effective against sith with dex 3.

It's fine imo
 

CC-1119 'Appo'

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But pulse nades knock you down and make you unable to shoot until you reload. Plus depending on your weapon the ammo loss can be a significant hit too.

And there is the hard counter thing for deka and SBD.
As do other grenades, the only advantage these have is the reload as a result of ammo drain. It's a fair advantage but no where near enough to justify using a grenade that requires a follow up in every situation, you will never throw an EMP and have those 10 points be justified alone by the nade, it will always need further support from you or others, this usually ends up with the nade being useless. I've only ever seen EMPs used in a worthwhile way in competitive 5v5 matches but even then, only if team mates can follow up on it as after about 6 seconds the enemy has already recovered from the pulse.

Hard counter vs SBDs & Dekas isn't actually that bad but the cost is unreasonable, it's a grenade you have to follow up on and that means it is worth less than other grenades, you have to put in more effort to secure a kill or make that 10 point investment worthwhile because all it takes is a bit of delay and your investment is pointless. Not to mention that Deka can simply ball up and roll away due to the incredible health/shield values of the class, no idea who thought 400/700 was fair. (hp/shield)

Wasn't Westar M5 JUST buffed with more ammo?
Pulse Nades aren't meant for standard units but are really meant for Dekas and SBDs, one pulse nade and half a clip of akimbo pistols and you will wreck any sbd/dekas in your way.
Arc is meant to be a niche class, mainly to deal with sbd/deka, but is also effective against sith with dex 3.

It's fine imo
M5 has a larger magazine now, not a larger reserve ammo count. Magazine is fine, reserve is not. You end up running out of ammo in 5v5s & 6v6s if you even attempt to use any form of suppression fire, a bit shit for a class with 1 life.

I can see that with pulse nades but the issue is that they cost so much for something that requires a follow up. If EMP nades dealt like 80 - 100 HP damage to Deka/SBD I could see the cost being justified but 10 points for a nade that cannot kill (unless v. low hp) and always requires you to follow it up is unreasonable.

ARC isn't in a bad spot mind you, the class is still more than playable if you put work in it just has some odd downsides that make no sense and could use tweaking, the reserve ammo pool is so low that the M5 becomes very iffy to use if you're not getting accuracy rates of like 30 - 40%. Not so much of an issue with duals as you get more ammo.
 

Lessen

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I’m routinely running out of ammo firing at a saberist, the guys simply don’t go down
Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is because, when blocking (or swingblocking with def 3), FP drain is now super duper low, while regen is also extremely low. I haven't completely adjusted to this either, as a fellow gunner main, but I can tell you from playing sith for a little while that the FP drain when autoblocking (like, while running) is now maaaasssssive, and FP regen while capable of autoblocking is significantly worse than before.

So you can tear apart running saberists now, and turtling saberists are way better at turtling in the short run, but can't turtle literally indefinitely anymore.
 

DaloLorn

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Well, according to Tempest, the M5 will have 360/480/600 ammo in the next patch. Just giving a heads up to those not on the Discord chat. :p

Edit: Just watched your 'credentials' videos. The long one feels almost like a 'Join ARC now!' recruitment thing with all the stunts you've pulled off - even accounting for all the inevitable failures you must have experienced along the way, it definitely reinforces my opinion of you (and of arc-fu :p).

The short one feels a bit more realistic, and both have taught me a few things (for example, maybe the big default crosshairs aren't the best choice, and I definitely need to do without enhanced effects). :p
 
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Tempest

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Just had some thoughts for addressing some of the concerns with pulse nades:
What if they temporarily knocked out armor as well (similarly to what ions blobs do)? Maybe set armor to 0 and have it slowly (or have the rate/amount reduced be based on how close you were to the detonation) regen back up to what it was until you take damage? Think that would more justify the cost and make it require less follow-up while also making it more of a complementary grenade to others rather than kind of a derpy alternative.
 
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Just had some thoughts for addressing some of the concerns with pulse nades:
What if they temporarily knocked out armor as well (similarly to what ions blobs do)? Maybe set armor to 0 and have it slowly (or have the rate/amount reduced be based on how close you were to the detonation) regen back up to what it was until you take damage? Think that would more justify the cost and make it require less follow-up while also making it more of a complementary grenade to others rather than kind of a derpy alternative.
That can be really overpowered. You can more easily beat a BH better than ever with that tactic. Just throw a pulse and if it hits the BH, shoot him immediatly and you just did 120 damage. (100 armor and about 20 hp from the M5 shot)
 

DaloLorn

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That can be really overpowered. You can more easily beat a BH better than ever with that tactic. Just throw a pulse and if it hits the BH, shoot him immediatly and you just did 120 damage. (100 armor and about 20 hp from the M5 shot)
In all fairness, a good frag grenade will do a good portion of that 120 damage without the need for a mandatory follow-up shot. (Not that it's a bad point, though.)

Also, I thought only Mandos and ARCs had a full 100 armor?
 

CC-1119 'Appo'

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In all fairness, a good frag grenade will do a good portion of that 120 damage without the need for a mandatory follow-up shot. (Not that it's a bad point, though.)

Also, I thought only Mandos and ARCs had a full 100 armor?
He's saying that the EMP takes out all of the shield (100 at max) and then your shot deals 20 damage.
 

DaloLorn

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He's saying that the EMP takes out all of the shield (100 at max) and then your shot deals 20 damage.
Oh, I know. My point is that the frag grenade would also permanently take out the armor and damage the player underneath, except it wouldn't need help from a follow-up shot to make it happen. (Mind you, my point is based on a damage value that may be purely fictional - I haven't checked the library to get a baseline value for frag explosions.)
 

CC-1119 'Appo'

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Oh, I know. My point is that the frag grenade would also permanently take out the armor and damage the player underneath, except it wouldn't need help from a follow-up shot to make it happen. (Mind you, my point is based on a damage value that may be purely fictional - I haven't checked the library to get a baseline value for frag explosions.)
Whoops, misread your other post. My bad.

That being said, I think Tempest's suggestion for the EMPs is probably the best one I've seen so far, they may actually be worthwhile if it leaves the enemy weakened for a few moments (10s or so?)
 

zane

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Whoops, misread your other post. My bad.

That being said, I think Tempest's suggestion for the EMPs is probably the best one I've seen so far, they may actually be worthwhile if it leaves the enemy weakened for a few moments (10s or so?)
10 seconds is a long time to be disabled or weakened.
 

CC-1119 'Appo'

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10 seconds is a long time to be disabled or weakened.
I agree, but generally a good idea to start at the boundary. Disabling shields for 4 - 5 seconds would probably be more than fair enough, get the shields down, rush in and get a few hits on their unprotected health before backing off.
 
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I think that you are all totally ignoring the fact that pulse grenades drain your whole ammo clip, no matter which class you are, in addition to having even more destructive effects against droidekas and SBDs.
 

DaloLorn

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I think that you are all totally ignoring the fact that pulse grenades drain your whole ammo clip, no matter which class you are, in addition to having even more destructive effects against droidekas and SBDs.
In my experience, the only time that has been anything more than an annoyance was when I was playing Fenn Shysa in Corellia FA and got over half of my (ludicrously large) ammo reserve emptied in order to refill my (also excessively large) clip in what must have been half a minute of reloading. (Mind you, there wasn't enough of a follow-up by the 3-5 nearby clones to kill 'Sitting-Duck Shysa', which kinda proves Appo's point.) Well, I suppose you could also count instances of where my ARC got his M5's precious ammo wiped out, but that will be slightly less of a problem with the ammo changes in 1.4.4.

(Besides which, there was a comment in another thread that made sense - anyone with the slightest idea of how the game works will just hurry to switch to melee, and suddenly all he lost was whatever physical damage he took to his HP. I should have remembered that trick on Corellia. :oops:)
 
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In my experience, the only time that has been anything more than an annoyance was when I was playing Fenn Shysa in Corellia FA and got over half of my (ludicrously large) ammo reserve emptied in order to refill my (also excessively large) clip in what must have been half a minute of reloading. (Mind you, there wasn't enough of a follow-up by the 3-5 nearby clones to kill 'Sitting-Duck Shysa', which kinda proves Appo's point.) Well, I suppose you could also count instances of where my ARC got his M5's precious ammo wiped out, but that will be slightly less of a problem with the ammo changes in 1.4.4.
I had bad experiences with being hit by a pulse nade, ARCs attach it to me with secondary fire of their M5, and they run after me and I'm stunned and then unable to shoot and die. Even when they don't attach it to me, it's the same.
(Besides which, there was a comment in another thread that made sense - anyone with the slightest idea of how the game works will just hurry to switch to melee, and suddenly all he lost was whatever physical damage he took to his HP. I should have remembered that trick on Corellia. :oops:)
Are you sure that works, and your ammo clip isn't drained when you switch back to your weapon, or whether you can switch to melee in such a situation when being electrocuted at all.
 

DaloLorn

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I had bad experiences with being hit by a pulse nade, ARCs attach it to me with secondary fire of their M5, and they run after me and I'm stunned and then unable to shoot and die. Even when they don't attach it to me, it's the same.
You're too far from your team, then. A lone wolf in proximity to a pulse ARC might even be in danger, but the grenade fails miserably at countering droids (or anyone, for that matter) when they're at their strongest; locking down a corridor with their allies.

Are you sure that works, and your ammo clip isn't drained when you switch back to your weapon, or whether you can switch to melee in such a situation when being electrocuted at all.
It makes sense - I'm fairly certain that it only drains the clip of your current weapon, so switching to melee before the grenade explodes should work.
 
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