Appo's Arc Feedback for [CURRENT UPDATE NUMBER HERE]

[CC-1119 'Appo']

I'll be updating this thread as updates continue rolling out, will just keep tweaking this OP/posting replies with updates on the glorious state of balance for ARCs and the priority things I think could do with tweaking.

Archive (Fixed issues)

Spoiler

Westar M5 - AMMO​

Westar M5 desperately needs loving ATM, I’ve already posted a suggestion thread for this but will gather what I’ve proposed there in here too.
The reserve ammunition for the M5 is far too low. As it stands, I find myself running out of ammo constantly, the magazine is fine but the reserve just isn't enough. You can't compete with snipers and you can't compete with soldiers at the moment so the M5's place, with or without a sniper scope, is pretty much nonexistent as other classes do it much better and you can just take the dual pistols which are just flat out better than the m5 in terms of stats.

I'd suggest either:
A) reduce the ammo per shot from 2 to 1, then ammo 2 / 3 would be fair because as it stands, you get 18 sniper shots or 180 normal shots with ammo 2 which, unless you're somehow hitting headshots with every single shot, is not enough to kill more than 6 players and that's with a generous accuracy rating of 50%.

B) Increase the reserve ammo. At least 1.5x times what it is now so, 360 for ammo 1, 540 for ammo 2 and around 720 for ammo 3.

Alternatively, you could beef up damage to compensate for low damage overall but, as it stands, I'd generally just take the pistols over the m5 every time if it wasn't for the goddamn awful deadzone of those pistols, you basically have to deliberately misplace your crosshair to fight in close quarters.

Westar M5 – FP Drain​

So I don’t know which developer ARC players have pissed off or if I’ve just magically started doing less FP damage but it seems like the Westar M5 has had a stealth nerf for FP drain, I’m routinely running out of ammo firing at a saberist, the guys simply don’t go down and I’m having to resort to the old tactic of heroes, let them swing and then fire, because I can’t break through their swingblock or drain their FP fast enough anymore. Can we get this looked at ASAP? I don’t want anything crazy like deka firepower vs saberists but definitely should be doing more than 4 - 5 FP per shot, more like 8 or so would be fair.

Clone Pistols (dual)​

The pistols have some serious issues surrounding them, the same as any other pistols in the game. First of all, the animations are super janky and need a touch up honestly. Secondly and more importantly, the convergence on these guns means that they are so useless at close range without swaying your mouse left/right to compensate for each shot. I'd like to see the alternate firemode on these pistols and in fact all pistols not change from firing both pistols to only one but instead adjust the convergence between close range and long range, so you can specify whether your pistols meet their deadzone at fifteen meters or sixty meters. This should make the pistols more enjoyable to use, balance wise though they are fine. DPS is technically higher on pistols than the M5 and the bounce shot is absolutely brilliant for harassing passive sith players.

Animation freeze​

There's an issue, I'm not sure what to call it other than animation freeze, where if an ARC is shot at during a getup animation and continues to be shot at, every shot seems to reset or delay the recovery of the getup. I dunno if it is intentional, but it is not intuitive and can really punish solid plays by penalizing one bad getup with a death as you are functionally stun-locked so long as you are getting hit.

Pulse Nades​

These things need some work I’d say increase their AOE range and add some health damage to it or failing that just make them cheaper. 4/6/8 points would be more than fair for what they are, they’re a worse frag, conc or sonic grenade that require a follow up as they don’t deal raw damage and weaken an enemy for the rest of the round. The most they do is drain your magazine and most of your armour, which a frag grenade would also have done while dealing health damage as well.

I think with a lower price we’d also start seeing more of these because as it stands, the cost is too high and means you’ll be basically useless as ARC once those nades are gone if you do decide to go for a nade build, unless you only take one but at that point they are practically worthless. If you don't get that follow up by risking yourself, it is more often than not a waste of 10pts.

Pulse Underbarreled Launcher​

Same price for the pulse nades should be applied here, maybe combine the two so you can only have two pulse nades in the launcher and 3 in hand, so instead of 4/6/8 it would be 6/8 for 2 launchable nades? Force the launcher to require M5 rank 1 though, so you can't upgrade your M5 to be laser accurate even while sprinting while also having grenades, give it that choice between either the versatility of a nadelauncher or the accuracy of an upgraded M5.

ARC Dexterity Getup Animation Cancel​

So I have an obligation not only to propose changes for things I like, but for things that I know are broken to get fixed. The ARC Dexterity getup animation cancel is one of them. Functionally this is when you press the BLOCK/RELOAD key to switch to a blocking animation while in a getup animation as an ARC. Doing this allows you to instantly get up with a very abrupt snap and no obvious indication to an opponent as to what just happened due to being able to cancel the animation and instantly recover. This is blatantly unintentional and needs to be fixed ASAP.

I do have to stress however, it needs to be fixed without impacting the ability of an ARC to cancel lunges and rolls with an uppercut or a block as both of these are crucial feinting maneuvers to bait Sith into an early swing. The dexterity getup animation cancel however removes most possibilities for a Sith to outplay an ARC player outside of very lucky knockdowns using lightning 3 or pull 3.

"""credentials"""

Spoiler

The second video was edited by @Shady

 

[DaloLorn]

Another solution would be to nerf Force Push/Pull. It can also be done by reducing their cooldown and radius, so that saberists actually have to aim in order to push something/someone and not push everything and everyone in front of them. I don't know where in the movies Push/Pull functions like it does in MB2, so it can be changed. Force Push/Pull is the only reason Jedi/Sith are overpowered. Instead of nerfing it directly, other mechanics were added like flinch to reduce their overpoweredness.

Grip and lightning, too...

(I'm not joking - at least push/pull has a defense other than 'outright avoid engaging the Sith, be a Wookiee, or pick up a lightsaber'. Not to mention the fact that more classes are immune/resistant to push/pull than grip/lightning - high-dexterity ARCs will kill pretty much anyone dumb enough to push them, and pulling is no guarantee of success either; high-strength Wookiees are immune to everything...)

 

[S o l d i e r]

Grip and lightning, too...

(I'm not joking - at least push/pull has a defense other than 'outright avoid engaging the Sith, be a Wookiee, or pick up a lightsaber'. Not to mention the fact that more classes are immune/resistant to push/pull than grip/lightning - high-dexterity ARCs will kill pretty much anyone dumb enough to push them, and pulling is no guarantee of success either; high-strength Wookiees are immune to everything...)

But at least you don't have to walk because of them, and thus can escape sabers.

 

[Jeob]

Wow, so much disrespect for PLX. I can't help but to stand up for it.

and the PLX being useless in all but 1 situation (enemy is afk or doesn't have a half-decent sith).

Or when the sith is/are dead or is not around or is distracted by something or is unable to push (like after using lightning). Then again you undervalue any other build than dex 3+stam3, so I'm not surprised by your comment.

Right now you kill more teammates with it than enemies

Please, we could make exaggerated statements about frag nades as well or about anything. Last time I played a longer session as rocket ARC, I only had 1 tk and 48 enemy kills (not every kill was with rocket though). Also that tk was what I call, a calculated tk. A clone was fighting a sith and I estimated the clone to die by the time my rocket reaches them, but it was too early.

I've never seen one pro ARC rocketeer in my life. Mostly new players take rockets because they deem them cool and drop them later when they see how much they suck.

Maybe you just weren't lucky, or you don't give credit to good rocket ARCs. What do you consider a pro ARC rocketeer. Also there are plenty of frag videos where you see experienced players kick ass with PLX, like directly hitting flying mandos. I'd say most of the people who play this for years can use PLX pretty effectively.

The slight increase in rocket speed I proposed for rank 2 and rockets staying in the barrel after changing weapons for rank 3 wouldn't make the weapon overpowered, especially as you no longer get max 6 rockets but only 4. It still wouldn't be too hard to push the rockets, only more challenging

Well Vitéz pointed this out, but nothing would change about pushing rockets from close range. People just wait for the rocket to come out and instantly pushes it back, looking as if the ARC blew himself up. Increasing the speed won't change this. PLX is fine, pls don't make unnecessary changes.

It's the worst weapon in the game in cost/effectiveness, it could use a buff.

I'm not sure what you say is true, the 1st rocket costs 10 points. For that points you can easily kill 1, 2 or even 3 ppl in the right situation. Then there is sonic detonator for example, which also costs 10 points and probably won't get you a kill, therefore having worse cost/effectiveness than lvl 1 plx. However lvl 3 PLX cost 60 points, so its cost/effectiveness can be really bad, like you die after shooting 1 rocket, but that doesn't have to happen, you can easily have a round where you make good use of 4 rockets or more.

There's the right moment and place to use PLX just like for any other weapon, good sith can pretty much shut down a PLX ARC completely, but it doesn't warrant the PLX being buffed. Rocket ARC's usefulness is always determined by the enemy team's composition. Like if all of them are sith, regardless if they are good or bad sith, you won't be able to do anything with rockets, the more gunners there are on the enemy team, the more viable rockets become. Simple as that. Gunners are often free frags for a rocket ARC, well snipers counter rocket ARCs hard too though, so that's not entirely true either.

 

[S o l d i e r]

Wow, so much disrespect for PLX. I can't help but to stand up for it. ...

That's because it is underpowered. There may be good moments and good players with rocketeer ARCs, but the fact is that there are much less of those moments and players with them than with most other builds. Rocketeer ARCs rely on luck possibly more than any other build out there, along with grenadiers. You have 6 rockets and if they fail you are pretty much useless. Skill also plays a role, but most of the possible skillful situations with rocketeer ARCs rely heavily on luck (ambushing behind corners, launching from cover and unseen places, etc.), because you really depend on whether you are seen or not and whether your rocket is seen and expected or not. After the first round you play pretty much everyone on the enemy team will be expecting you and your rockets, and they will be prepared to focus on you and your rockets as their primary target because of their extraordinary power. Another thing is that if you go full-rocket build you pretty much don't have almost anything else available to you so if your rockets fail you are toast, or you can be toast even if you still have rockets in certain situations because rockets' usefulness is very situational.

Please, we could make exaggerated statements about frag nades as well or about anything. Last time I played a longer session as rocket ARC, I only had 1 tk and 48 enemy kills (not every kill was with rocket though). Also that tk was what I call, a calculated tk. A clone was fighting a sith and I estimated the clone to die by the time my rocket reaches them, but it was too early.

But how many times your pushed rocket killed your teammate?

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

28 damage

Huh? I'm pretty sure this weak-ass gun deals 24 dmg per shot. It takes a lot of hits to kill even a soldier, unlike with pistols.

28 dmg is god-tier level like ee3 and t21

 

[Lessen]

@Liniyka_xddd oh shit you're right. Wonder where I got that figure from then. Moreover, I would have sworn that the E-11 secondary was 26 damage, but the Library says it's 24 too.

Still though, that means my overall point that the M5 is like a totally accurate run-and-gun headshot-fu E-11 secondary, is still valid.

Still, with the damage difference, the pistols become a little more compelling since they're also full-auto head-level spray, plus they have bouncy shots. But the M5 still has the accuracy advantage of not aiming at two places, meaning if your aim is really precise then it's better for getting multiple consecutive headshots.

 

[Tempest]

I wonder how upgrading the PLX to allow for guided rockets in some manner would pan out.

 

[S o l d i e r]

I wonder how upgrading the PLX to allow for guided rockets in some manner would pan out.

That would be so cool. Something like this:

 

[SomeGuy]

I wonder how upgrading the PLX to allow for guided rockets in some manner would pan out.

Check out the guided rocket launcher in PlanetSide 2, the Phoenix. NC15 Phoenix It is a camera guided missile that can be shot out of the sky. It flies slowly at first but you can force it to increase speed while making the maneuverability significantly worse. Also it has a maximum range where it just explodes at that point.

Personally I love using Rocket ARC. Especially when used in tandem. The problem most people have is how it's usage is applied. Aim around corners, use the splash damage. Stop trying to blast opponents head on. It's all about map knowledge and positioning. Such as firing a rocket far enough away the Sith don't hear the launch. Rockets don't need a major change at all.

I would absolutely love more heavy weapon options added to ARCs, too.

 

[Lessen]

Anyone who uses the PLX as a "primary weapon" is taking the role of a hyper-specialist and needs to be supported by a good team. Also, the PLX is not completely useless against a group that includes a Sith. First off, if the Sith pushes the rocket back, a Jedi can still push it back again. This is risky.

Secondly, in theory the rocketeer could just wait for the moment the Sith is knocked down, and THEN fire. At mid/close range, I would think that even if the Sith does a quick getup, he still won't have time to push the rocket back. And Rebs have concussion blobs, the best knockdown in the game.

My point is that the PLX is not useless, it just takes more coordination to use well. Six rockets is a ton of damage, mind you, and the fragility of a 6-rocket ARC is irrelevant if the ARC is protected by allies and only comes out of cover to fire well-timed rockets.

There's also the matter of EMP rockets, which you can detonate in midair. I don't know, do they do full rocket damage PLUS EMP effects? Can you detonate them in the air AFTER they've been pushed? That would at least give you something of a safeguard against pushes.

 

[RG4]

I wonder how upgrading the PLX to allow for guided rockets in some manner would pan out.

 

[Hexodious]

I'd like to see small changes to make PLX more consistent:

- 15 Points / 2 Rockets Per Rank (from 60 total to 45 total).
- Alt Fire (Mid Air): Now applies to both Normal and EMP Rockets.
- Sprint works with PLX as long as it is not loaded.

Cheaper PLX offers more variety and power to Rocket/EMP styled builds without buffing the already strong Dex3+Gun builds. While Alt Fire improvements allow ARCs to make more strategic rocket choices (and to a lesser extent counter play longer range rockets vs push). The Sprint change is simply quality of life for the ARC player.

 

[Vitéz]

If I remember it well, the current point requirements are 10+20+30 for 1+2+3 rockets. Lets say you dont want to get lvl6 for max rocket, its usually useless anyway, so lets say you want to get lvl2. Nowdays its 30 points for 3 rockets. Your idea is to get 2+2=4 rockets for 15+15=30 points. It wouldnt help players to get more versatile builds on lower lvl, you only gave them +1 rocket for free. Plus lvl1 became more expensive. And if a player get lvl3 rockets with 6 ammo, I say its fair that they have a very limited choice for their builds. This idea is like "poor Force users cant get lvl3 for each offensive ability, and get lightsaber skills together, so lets make Force abilities cheaper". Its not working that way. If the players decide to choose the 6 rockets over the other abilities, its their decision. Again: ARC is viable without having either Dexterity lvl3 or PLX lvl3...
The second idea is like... okay, do it. Wouldnt make a huge difference, Sith will still push the rocket back, so detonating it will make huge explosion between the players, damaging no one... well, maybe you can TK your Jedi with it.
The 3rd idea doesnt make sense with RL logic, and doest give much benefit to the user ingame. Its not like swapping weapons takes much time. On the other hand its totally unrealistic that you can sprint if you have the rocket in your inventory, but when you load it onto your launcher, you suddenly cannot sprint.
As I see: ARC is a specialist class, which requires a totally different playing style than common soldier classes as Soldier/ET/Hero/BH/etc. require, and players are complaining about the fact that their usual methods are not working, even making them bad with this class. So its nothing new, as I remember, this "problem" comes up quite frequently.

 

[DaloLorn]

But at least you don't have to walk because of them, and thus can escape sabers.

Sure, because almost every Sith sacrifices push/pull for grip/lightning instead of combining them... oh, wait, it's actually the exact opposite. (Besides which, saberists are one of the fastest classes in the game, retreat is somewhat unviable even if they can't knock you to the floor.)

 

[S o l d i e r]

This discussion about PLX isn't leading anywhere. Some people think it's this way and want it this way, some think it's that way and want it that way, and I won't be repeating everything I already said. Like pretty much any discussion about game features, there are opposing views, and it's pretty much about the point of view you take, and not about reality, since this mod is so complicated, no one could calculate the usefulness or uselessness of anything with extreme precision, and in any situation you can take at least two stands, if not more, because of the unparticularness and dynamicity of the situation.
For start I would say do this:

- Alt Fire (Mid Air): Now applies to both Normal and EMP Rockets.
- Sprint works with PLX as long as it is not loaded.

And with a Stamina level that you can sprint even with the loaded PLX, or that you can sprint with PLX (both loaded and unloaded) only with a Stamina level.

(Besides which, saberists are one of the fastest classes in the game, retreat is somewhat unviable even if they can't knock you to the floor.)

But running is still better than walking, and calculating when to hold shift and when to not hold it.

 

[Jeob]

That's because it is underpowered.

So if it's underpowered then we have to talk shit about it in exaggerated ways. Also it could be debated whether it's underpowered or not. In game I was often told that the PLX is op when I used it (and that I only use op stuff), but the reason for that is simply because people tend to call anything op which gets them killed.

You have 6 rockets and if they fail you are pretty much useless.

Well, of course. That's what you signed up for when investing 60 points into rockets. Would it be fair if you could continue with dex 3 maneuvers after launching 6 rockets?

Rocketeer ARCs rely on luck possibly more than any other build out there, along with grenadiers.

Oh, I thought people went over this in that movement thread.

Skill also plays a role...(ambushing behind corners, launching from cover and unseen places, etc.), because you really depend on whether you are seen or not and whether your rocket is seen and expected or not. After the first round you play pretty much everyone on the enemy team will be expecting you and your rockets, and they will be prepared to focus on you and your rockets as their primary target because of their extraordinary power. Another thing is that if you go full-rocket build you pretty much don't have almost anything else available to you so if your rockets fail you are toast, or you can be toast even if you still have rockets in certain situations because rockets' usefulness is very situational.

All of this is true and it balances out the PLX. You seem to ignore the benefits of PLX. Like how effortlessly you can kill people sometimes with it comparing it to any other weapon in the game. It has huge damage with large AOE, which makes the aiming requirement quite easy. You can just shoot the ground nearby your target and get a kill with it meanwhile every other projectile based weapon requires precise shots on the body (and on the head if you want maximum damage).

Regarding that the enemy is prepared for you after 1 round, well you can be prepared that they are prepared for your rockets and still make them eat rockets with the correct adjustments. Also the players aren't flawless, many players will keep forgetting about your rockets, and your teammates can help them forget about your rocket. This is why I would rather say rocketing requires brain, not skill. Skill wise there's not much to PLX because it doesn't require high accuracy thanks to its AOE, the only skilled part is directly hitting midair sith/mandos with it, but you can skip that part and still be successful with PLX.

I would also mention how powerful lvl 2 PLX builds are. You can get stamina lvl 2-3, dex lvl 1-2, some armor and ammo next to it with a weapon, which is pretty solid build for gunfights and you can also deal with sith almost as well as a clone thanks to sprint. Next to that you can earn easy kills with 3 rockets.

But how many times your pushed rocket killed your teammate?

Kind of expected you to say this and I thought about adressing it in my previous post. Well I don't remember but around 0-5. The sith has to be 2 steps ahead to push your rocket into one of your teammates, the natural reaction of even the best sith is usually just to push it right back in the ARC's face (which may blow up 1 of your teammates who's near you) or to simply push it anywhere they can. From my general experience it rarely happens with my rockets that they are pushed back into my teammates because I simply don't shoot the rocket when the sith can focus on my rocket to this extent. Really rocketing is all about paying attention to both your teammates and enemies actions, decisions, it teaches you much higher situation awareness than most of the other classes/builds in mb2.

- 15 Points / 2 Rockets Per Rank (from 60 total to 45 total).

That would buff 6 rockets builds maybe too much. Let's make a build. Let's get lvl 2 stamina (55 pts), westar 1 (65 points), armor 3 (75 points), ammo 2 (79 pts). Alternatives: dex 1 for armor 3 or ammo 2, pistols instead of M5, M5 sniper instead of armom/ammo/stamina and of course getting 1, 2 or 3 pulses.
This may be too good for someone with 6 rockets, everyone can decide it for themselves.

Alt Fire (Mid Air): Now applies to both Normal and EMP Rockets.

Clearly a buff, but nothing game breaking. I'm ok with it. You could hit airborn targets easier with it, and save yourself and/or your teammates from a pushed back rocket.

- Sprint works with PLX as long as it is not loaded.

Harmless change. Right now you sprint with other weapon (let's say melee) then switch to PLX and load it. With that you would only save the time of switching weapons, which is something like 0,3 sec.

This discussion about PLX isn't leading anywhere.

Yea, probably, like many other discussions on this forums, but we enjoy doing it right?

 

[DaloLorn]

But running is still better than walking, and calculating when to hold shift and when to not hold it.

If a Jedi tries to come at me, I'll blast him or die trying. (Things get a little pear-shaped if he has backup, though.) If a Sith tries to come at me, I'll blast him, die trying, get gripped and sabered, or get fried and sabered. If the Sith knows anything about anything, these last two scenarios can only be prevented by considerable distance (not viable in most maps) or extremely good Jedi. (Alternatively, a friendly blob/grenade in the nick of time.)

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Or when the sith is/are dead or is not around or is distracted by something or is unable to push (like after using lightning). Then again you undervalue any other build than dex 3+stam3, so I'm not surprised by your comment.

Ok, so basically it's only useful when you're not playing competitively yeah?

It's a weapon that only works if the enemy makes a mistake, if they're on-top of their game, it's a waste of 10+ points that deals more friendly fire damage than enemy damage in most circumstances. I don't have a perfect solution for this weapon mind you, because I think it's extremely situational to the point of basically never even using it.

ARC without Dex 2+ is the meta simply for how much work it can put out and that playing ARC without Dex 2+ is basically just like playing a worse variation of a clonetrooper.

Whats the problem with using other classes' abilities?

It's a class based game. That means classes shouldn't be identical in almost all cases. Really shouldn't have to explain this but if classes mirror each other too much, they stop being unique, if they stop being unique, it loses any semblance of asymmetric balance.

ARC is viable without having either Dexterity lvl3 or PLX lvl3...

Of course, that doesn't mean it's not in a poor place however. If a weapon is basically useless in 90% of situations, it's probably not a bad idea to try and fix it so it's actually playable.

As I see: ARC is a specialist class, which requires a totally different playing style than common soldier classes as Soldier/ET/Hero/BH/etc. require, and players are complaining about the fact that their usual methods are not working, even making them bad with this class. So its nothing new, as I remember, this "problem" comes up quite frequently.

And yet you wanted to remove bounce on pistols because it's not familiar to people.

Its not like ARC Troopers didnt use "non ARC Trooper" stuffs like Blaster (DC-15=E-11); normal grenades (Frag Grenade), repeaters (DC-15A) in canon. And half of the gunner classes are already doing it, so it really cant be such a problem.

Lore =/= Balance.

What kind of change do you want to see?

This is the kind of question that annoys me.
Read the original post if you're interested in my suggestions, they've already been posted.

If they're archived in the OP, that means they've been solved.

Ah, sorry, not useless, "just as useful as Sonic Grenade and Fire Grenades are". Speaking of them, they'd have to be cheaper if Pusle would be cheaper, because they're all "special grenades": we use them to stun and make other stuffs to the target, not to kill.

Except Fire Grenades deal some damage over time (albeit, counter-able with a roll) and Sonic Nades completely disable the ability for any non-droid hit to fire or attack for a few seconds.

Fire & Sonic nades already have a purpose, as do Conc nades for unpredictable detonation time but EMPs are useless for the most part, they work vs Droids but are so easily countered even if you catch the enemy off guard that it makes them a bit pointless, either due to cost or AOE range.

About the Pistol change: I think the Clone Pistol is the best pistol ingame. I only suggested to give charged shots as an alternative, because many players simply dont use it, I thought maybe they'll consider the charged shots more useful for their game style, so they'd choose the Clone Pistol. And I agree with you, I also think Pistol is much better than M5, but as I see ingame, others see it differently. And this change wouldnt take away the bouncing shots, so I have to ask, why not?

I think I'm fairly justified in saying that if you don't appreciate the power that clone pistol 2 or 3 add, you're not playing ARC/Clone properly.
That bounce is incredibly powerful at countering snipers & sith when used right.

I also don't want to see every class in this game be a goddamn mirror because of your desire to see the game more realistic or whatever nonsense you want to spout to justify dumbing down the game's choice in classes.

 

[Lessen]

It's a weapon that only works if the enemy makes a mistake

Noooooooo. Nuuuuu. It's a weapon that only works if the enemy leaves an opening, and your teammates can create an opening. It's a strategic punishment tool, not comparable with any other weapon except, like, grenades. It's useless if you're on your own. That's fine. We don't need to make everything viable for Rambo-play. This isn't a dueling game. Except on duel servers :^U

If the Sith on the enemy team gets knocked over, that's an opening. If the Sith gets knocked over and then sniped into oblivion, that's infinite openings, and you can basically just eat the enemy gunners at that point, with six rockets.

 

[Vitéz]

Please read again what I wrote, CC-1119 "Appo'. You are answering to a non existing message, which I didnt wrote. I did not want to remove bouncing shots of Clone Pistol, I love it. I said an alternative lvl3, which would grant charged shots if the player buys the ability; what may would help those, who dont like the bounce shots. I'm not one of them. I just said an alternative (not a replacement, these are 2 totally different things) solution, which wouldnt override the existing lvl3. It'd be just an extra. You can feel yourself "fairly justified" if you want, I did not say that I dont appeciate the power of Clone Pistol. I even said I think its the best pistol ingame. Yet you say I said the opposite, and also say that I dont play this class properly because of this. Seriously? You even quoted I said the opposite what you wrote I said.

Fire Grenades do not do much damage against any decent player... maybe 10-20 shield damage... even a Soldier can endure at least three times this much. Sonic Grenades force the targets to run back to cover... nothing more. Thats why nobody use these grenades. They're great on paper, but simply dont work ingame, because the targets are not stupid, and they simply run back to safety, without suffering any serious damage or tactical disadvantage. And the detonation time of Concussion Grenade is totally predictable.

Lore is not equal balance (why would they be, they are tottaly different things), but using your words, this is a "class based game mode". Why cant the classes use everything they did in the lore? Wouldnt this be the point of all this? Well, except for Jedi, but this is understandable because of their power.

And I read your first post. I also said in a previous post what's the problem with buffing Pulse Grenade. So semi-quoting you, this is the kind of answer which annoys me. You dont even read my full answers, you quote them like hell, but didnt read them. And state false things about what "I said". This conversation is totally pointless in my eyes. Good lock with your ideas. Read next time before quote.