Adjustments to General Gameplay

Gargos

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@Gargos wait wait, I re read what you just said. Does that mean you would still be perfectly accurate while moving? Unlike how it is now? As in you run and the shot wouldn't veer off?
If it says 100 percent accurate after waiting still for 1,5 seconds, Id assume that will stay until unscope. Just my assumption though. What would make this interesting is that the scope delay would be removed --> face snipes in which accuracity is not as important. And if the change was implemented that running saberist couldnt block a proj anymore at least at close range this would bring us shotguns back
 
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Allrighty! Loving most of these changes, however there are some things I'd like to address


  • Assist TKs can be punished
(Ok, so this is mostly personal, but I know for sure that this will get abused. There will always be those salty that they die to a teammate, assist or no, even if it means stopping a large group of enemies in exchange for their life. I'd prefer not having to watch my TK points passively rise from assist tks, which I know I will get often.)
  • A primed grenade will tick passively to alert for corner camps

(This to me is not necessary. A grenade has a rather loud clicking sound to it when being primed, that it now also has a tick involved means that a sneaky nade throw against unsuspecting enemies is no longer an option. Sneaky nades can sometimes be the difference between a win or a loss and I'd hate to see that disappear from MBII)

Projectile Rifle

  • Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved
(I can tell you, on behalf of the high pingers of mb2, please dont do this. Even for regular ping'd snipers this is not a good idea. This kills the essence of flick sniping, a viable strat too. But for high pingers, 1.5s of our time, (which is also what the game thinks is 1.5s) Is us standing there for 2- 2.5 seconds. It's a major disadvantage that honestly doesn't need to be there.)

Westar M5
  • Increase sniper ammo cost so that the clip can fit 1 less sniper shot
  • Decrease sniper shot base damage by 3
(Okay, so let's talk about the Westar. This gun in already really nerfed, taking snipers shots from it will not help in the slightest. Already it can take 3-4 shots of a westar sniper to kill a bh or commander, (not including hs's) And decreasing the damage is also not viable imo, infact the westar shouuld be getting an increase in damage if you are taking the sniper shots down one less shot.)

Melee
  • Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching
(This, as many have already said, is not helping melee in the slightest. The purpose of the legsweep is to stop someone just crouching all the time to avoid flick kicks or normal kicks, allowing someone to knock their foe over and start either punching them to death or a kata.)

Poison Dart
  • Reduce duration by 33%
(With the way Jedi are already, giving them a chance against poison does not seem like a wise move. Jedi since the dawn of time, usually rush down main holding W. of course this isn't who jedi are supposed to be played, but that is the reality of how the majority play. Bounty hunters have one of two proper ways to counter jedi: Tracking darts, and Poison darts. Keep them more or less the same)
 
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Getting a feedback from noobs that play this game for 1 week isn't really a feedback. Because that short stun after lightning ends we talk so vigorously about is here since 2006. And out of sudden became a problem recently? Ok. Makes sense /sarcasm.
You're being dense if you think lightning is only now a problem.
 

Nex

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You're being dense if you think lightning is only now a problem.
You're dense if you assume I think it is the only problem. Try reading the whole thread kid then talk your bs nonsense. Also a tough statement from a 1 post no name random shittalker.
 

MaceMadunusus

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You're dense if you assume I think it is the only problem. Try reading the whole thread kid then talk your bs nonsense. Also a tough statement from a 1 post no name random shittalker.
Corsair isn't new. Hes been around a long time. Assuming its the old Corsair anyway. Far longer than I have known you anyway. Remember, not everyone made new accounts when we switched sites. He might be coming back now. If so hey dude!

There really is not much reason for that.
 

Nex

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Corsair isn't new. Hes been around a long time. Assuming its the old Corsair anyway. Far longer than I have known you anyway. Remember, not everyone made new accounts when we switched sites. He might be coming back now. If so hey dude!
I've never heard of him. I see no difference between him and 1 day noob that just arrived with the new wave and now jumps in to the thread only to insult 10+ year old vets.
 
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I like many of these changes, push really is the biggest issue when it comes to jedi/sith being OP, so it definitely needs these changes. Its also good to see that some gunner classes are actually getting nerfed, however imo not in the right places. The Mando seems quite balanced to me, same with the disruptor. the most OP gunner classes still seem to be untouched (hero P3, SBD, wookie) although clones blob got nerfed so thank god for that.


Please, please, dont reduce the defense arc of staff/duals. 1.4 already made BWs so much more common, honestly defense arcs need a big increase in general, just against sabers if thats possible. 1.4 has brought on a BW kind of meta, I atleast have never seen such a large number of BW hunters as i do now. Its quite the problem, especially in 1vX situations in Open. Fighting a pack of BW hunting Jedi/Sith is one of the most frustrating things iv encountered in MB2, because of the changes made in 1.4. BWs are no fun, I think we can all agree. If the enemy is any decent (which you dont even need to be to BW hunt) its basically impossible to defend against with single saber styles regardless of how good you are. You will either get BWed (most likely) or lose all your bp to running constantly to protect your back. Duals/Staff are really the only way to counter gangs of sith/jedi...

Personally I dont think flinch needed a buff, considering it was already a buff to every gunner class... making weapons like the CR2/3 or SBD stupidly strong with their fire rate.... honestly atleast with clone, flinch is quite unfair, and it or CR2/CR3 should be adjusted.



So this means FP drains are getting increased while not blocking right? Really not necessary imo. FP drains feel quite balanced to me, if your going to make this change you should atleast reduce the drains while blocking like it was in a previous version. Personally, I cant remember what version it was, but besides the super slow FP regen, I REALLY enjoyed when blocking blaster fire had a big effect on FP drains. While the high FP drains when not blocking made me really think about how I wanted to attack, the low FP drains while blocking allowed me to stand my ground against the gunner gang-bangs that like to roam around.

1.4 changed many things, and one of the biggest results of these changes (imo) is that it became alot more difficult to survive when you're outnumbered. The change to parrying, reduced BP damage on combos and reduced BP damage of swings while running, combined with flinch and reduced defensive arcs, really screws over the "lonewolf" type players out there, or just the people who find themselves heavily outnumbered. Reduced BP drains while blocking really felt good because it was FINALLY a tool I could use against hordes of enemies. We need more tools like this - In other fast paced combat games similar to MB2, if you're good enough, you can deal with hordes of enemies by killing them quickly, using aggression, speed and misdirection. This doesnt work in MB2 because of of the BP system - when you are 1v2 other saberist you automatically have to chew through twice the amount of BP points, a huge disadvantage that doesnt take skill into account, made worst by the fact that the saber system punishes you for running. I know this isnt the place for saber vs saber discussion but I only mention this because if you add one or two gunners to those two sith/jedi who are ganging you, well.... the game doesnt give you many tools to defend yourself. Increasing FP drains while not blocking would make these kind of situations so much worst. So personally id like to see us go back to the system where there are very high FP drains while not blocking, and very low FP drains while blocking, if there must be a change.


Lightning really does not need a nerf - I mean yes, Lightning can be VERY powerful, to the point of being OP, but at the same time Sith need this ability to counter other OP classes. For example the Hero - a good Hero is basically unkillable to a Sith because of their move speed and dash... lightning is the one reliable counter to Heros that Sith have (even then its a LONG war of attrition....). Pull can work too, but good Heros will never let you pull them and will just 1 shot you with P3. Clones as well, lightning is one of the few counters sith have to packs of clones, which have become incredibly OP due to flinch and their insane fire rate... however the nerf to blobs may fix this so...

I apologize for so much text, but I love MB2, I think its one of the greatest games around, however i have been INCREDIBLY frustrated by 1.4, to the point where iv stopped playing. Id like to do whatever I can to help improve it, so I hope my input is of use....



TL;DR - I like that some gunner classes are finally getting a nerf, however I feel they are in the wrong place. Good that push/knockdown is getting a nerf, same with clone blobs, thank god for that. Please dont nerf defensive arcs, on anything. Defensive arcs, against sabers, need a buff, there are too many BWs in 1.4. Lightning doesnt need a nerf, its a necessary evil to deal with things like Hero dash. If you must change FP drains, increase FP drains while not blocking, decrease FP drains while blocking. The power of outnumbering your opponent needs a nerf. Skill should be rewarded more in 1vX situations, considering the mechanics of this game already favor the many over the few.
I agree with everything this man says regarding the changes. If you remove the additional defence arc of staff and duals whats the point of even having them ? They're supposed to have some sort of incentive to use.
 

MaceMadunusus

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I agree with everything this man says regarding the changes. If you remove the additional defence arc of staff and duals whats the point of even having them ? They're supposed to have some sort of incentive to use.
I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head right now and I am not really a saberist. But I remember when hearing the number I felt that while I agree they should have larger arcs than single sabers that their arcs were too large. Would you support a lessening of the arc (But not putting them equal to single sabers)?
 

Helix

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Lightning only stuns for the frames that it hits
This would effectively render it useless just as with grip. It's physically (yes-yes, physics in star wars) wrong, because the electricity stays in body after it was hit. I think lightning is in a very good spot atm, it fulfills it's only purpose to stop enemy fire whilst you're trying to slash him. If he's good enough to strafe-jump away, try it again.
FP drains are no longer capped when not blocking
I didn't quite understand this but I feel a disturbance in the force.
Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved
Hm, this would effectively kill an important mechanic present in every shooter. I don't really know the name, but it's when you stop for a moment, able to snipe with 100% accuracy and keep moving. This is often used in CS. Not being able to make a 100% accurate shot in a moment of releasing my direction button just to press it again in a moment seems meh to me.
Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching
But it already doesn't knock you down if you crouch + hold block. No need to simplify it, imo.
Reduce duration by 33%
As a main sith/jedi I find it quite annoying whenever I'm stuck in a middle of a corridor with just me and BH aiming at me with melee, and would love to have the duration reduced, but at the same time it would also kill that challenge of survival and all the actions you have to take to actually fool a BH. tldr 33% is too much. 20% would work well for the first change.
 

Tempest

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Some thoughts I had:
- What if flinch only worked during the first half of swings (This means people can't just facehug and swing at you but it's also not 100% avoidable just by holding the fire button with high RoF weapons; could even be just for Red/Purple, idk).
- Move defense arcs back toward how they were before they got nerfed (help with BW/SW spam)
- Grip no longer tied to FP but the "ticks" for being able to grip go down when being shot (or some variation). I personally hate the "must have X FP to use a power" but I can see why it's been a thing for a long time.
- Getting rid of the FP debuff and tying it solely to when flinch can be triggered.
- If the FP debuff stays, split the duration/intervals into 0.5s instead of 1s->2s->3s or whatever it is now. Can still rack it up really quick if you're under heavy fire but less targets/more maneuvering = faster recovery.
- Giving dual pistols deka aiming in some form (in that by default, they fire split but, when aimed at a target, they fire toward one combined point)

(This to me is not necessary. A grenade has a rather loud clicking sound to it when being primed, that it now also has a tick involved means that a sneaky nade throw against unsuspecting enemies is no longer an option. Sneaky nades can sometimes be the difference between a win or a loss and I'd hate to see that disappear from MBII)
Cause it's super fun to have someone sitting with a silent nade and then pop around a corner and be 90% likely to kill you?

Assist TKs can be punished
This was supposed to be originally for explosives/things that indirectly led to deaths (i.e. gripping a teammate or kicking them out into the open and them being shot).

Also, some of these suggestions regarding Grip/Lightning in dev discussions are with my rework to Force stuff that actually make them more balanced/useful overall (don't have all the details worked out yet but hopefully I'll be done soon).
 
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Some thoughts I had:
- What if flinch only worked during the first half of swings (This means people can't just facehug and swing at you but it's also not 100% avoidable just by holding the fire button with high RoF weapons; could even be just for Red/Purple, idk).
Or... we can just do what I suggested and make saber vs gunning take skill, and add specific mechanics for those fights, so that it isn't a constant strafe/spam fest that takes more luck than skill on both sides.

- Move defense arcs back toward how they were before they got nerfed (help with BW/SW spam)
Yeah, but also you could just add swing direction restrictions again so people can't run around your side spamming WA A WA A swings over and over. Because back in 1.3, Sidewhacks were less of a problem due to the fact that you could only get a maximum of *two* swings in any direction before having to go into the other direction, and that's only IF you knew the combo to get those two swings i.e. SA/WA or SD/WD.

- Grip no longer tied to FP but the "ticks" for being able to grip go down when being shot (or some variation). I personally hate the "must have X FP to use a power" but I can see why it's been a thing for a long time.
Or, just overhaul the forcepowers like I suggested ages ago so they take more skill to use, and have counter plays. Why is grip just some shitty gimmick to give you a free lightsaber swing, and why isn't it used as a lethal force power?

- Getting rid of the FP debuff and tying it solely to when flinch can be triggered.
Eh, I'd just get rid of the FP debuff entirely, and increase FP Regen (since it is abysmal even without the FP Debuff)

- If the FP debuff stays, split the duration/intervals into 0.5s instead of 1s->2s->3s or whatever it is now. Can still rack it up really quick if you're under heavy fire but less targets/more maneuvering = faster recovery.
Or just remove it. That's also an option.

- Giving dual pistols deka aiming in some form (in that by default, they fire split but, when aimed at a target, they fire toward one combined point)
Yes.


Cause it's super fun to have someone sitting with a silent nade and then pop around a corner and be 90% likely to kill you?


This was supposed to be originally for explosives/things that indirectly led to deaths (i.e. gripping a teammate or kicking them out into the open and them being shot).
It's still not going to help, though. Because what will happen with the beeping nade thing, is good players will only prime it when their target is *already in range* of the grenade. It'll still be a cheap unavoidable death for basically anyone. Just remove alt frag, and let Conc be the CC weapon.

Also, some of these suggestions regarding Grip/Lightning in dev discussions are with my rework to Force stuff that actually make them more balanced/useful overall (don't have all the details worked out yet but hopefully I'll be done soon).


When I hear that Devs are talking about a rework behind closed doors.
 
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Yeah, but also you could just add swing direction restrictions again so people can't run around your side spamming WA A WA A swings over and over. Because back in 1.3, Sidewhacks were less of a problem due to the fact that you could only get a maximum of *two* swings in any direction before having to go into the other direction, and that's only IF you knew the combo to get those two swings i.e. SA/WA or SD/WD.
Actually, 1.3 had just as many sidewhacks as the other builds.

It's still not going to help, though. Because what will happen with the beeping nade thing, is good players will only prime it when their target is *already in range* of the grenade. It'll still be a cheap unavoidable death for basically anyone. Just remove alt frag, and let Conc be the CC weapon.
Theres no need to remove alt fire nade. It is an effective tool to A) knockpeople over, and b) can give a gunner a chance to avoid a messy jihad rocket. It only does 20 dmg, it's not a big deal.

Cause it's super fun to have someone sitting with a silent nade and then pop around a corner and be 90% likely to kill you?
Timing with a primary nade can be incredibly important, stealth nades especially have a great pay off, allowing me time to consider both the angles and direction I'm throwing it in.
 
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Actually, 1.3 had just as many sidewhacks as the other builds.
Saying it, doesn't make it true. I almost never was SW'd in 1.3. As soon as 1.4 hit, everyone noticed sidewhacks becoming more frequent. That's simply a not true statement. Pretty sure even the numbers between 1.3 and now would prove you wrong as well, due to the defense changes and lack of swing restrictions. It's much MUCH easier to get a SW on purpose.

Theres no need to remove alt fire nade. It is an effective tool to A) knockpeople over, and b) can give a gunner a chance to avoid a messy jihad rocket. It only does 20 dmg, it's not a big deal.
1) It's a gimmick that has 0 counter play used to 'knock people over'. Just because it's effective at what it is designed to do doesn't make that purpose any less cancerous.

2) So nerf the Jihad rocket. I already explained in my Manifesto I wanted a 'minimum travel distance' to rockets before they explode.

3) 20 Damage + instant death by blaster shots if you don't have quick-getup, and atleast 1 shot if you do have quick getup (Or more if he has teammates)

Timing with a primary nade can be incredibly important, stealth nades especially have a great pay off, allowing me time to consider both the angles and direction I'm throwing it in.
Yes, too much pay off. Simply because it is strong doesn't make it balanced, in fact quite the opposite.
 
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You know if you guys want to just keep trying to make this game play like battlefront 2 with crappy capture point objective designs and removing all the things that make this game feel like MB2 rather than another generic shooter, keep going this route.
 
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Saying it, doesn't make it true. I almost never was SW'd in 1.3. As soon as 1.4 hit, everyone noticed sidewhacks becoming more frequent. That's simply a not true statement. Pretty sure even the numbers between 1.3 and now would prove you wrong as well, due to the defense changes and lack of swing restrictions. It's much MUCH easier to get a SW on purpose.
As someone who played extensively through 1.3, I can tell you that sidewhacks were a thing and still are. They only became more apparent to those with lower pings due to the change in radius.

1) It's a gimmick that has 0 counter play used to 'knock people over'. Just because it's effective at what it is designed to do doesn't make that purpose any less cancerous.

2) So nerf the Jihad rocket. I already explained in my Manifesto I wanted a 'minimum travel distance' to rockets before they explode.

3) 20 Damage + instant death by blaster shots if you don't have quick-getup, and atleast 1 shot if you do have quick getup (Or more if he has teammates)
1) It's not a gimmick, it's a legitimate strategy to use your frag grenade in alt form to knockdown someone and allow your team to either fire on them, or back away from them should they be a rampaging sith/jedi.

2) Jihad rockets are point blank, you cant nerf the damage of a point blank rocket, that'd be ridiculous.

3) Instant death to blaster shots if you're not a jedi/sith for one. Also, you should be with your team who should be shooting at said people gunning you down. 20dmg is fine, especially now that all classes besides sbd can roll from a knockdown, making this even more acceptable.[/B]

Yes, too much pay off. Simply because it is strong doesn't make it balanced, in fact quite the opposite.
Not at all. There are plenty of counters to a sneaky nade user. Namely using your head and considering checking corners. Then there's also sense, the ultimate way of finding someone hiding.
 
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Poison Dart
  • Reduce duration by 33%
This is the only change I am very much against, although I am not crazy about nerfing the M5 either. Darts are the thing that makes BH unique and cool and a very good way to counter a Jedi onslaught. They used to work also for a Hero's Dodge. Is that still true? If not, could they be used again for shutting down Dodge for Heroes and Commanders? All while keeping the duration the same? Maybe spreading the poison out to a few different classes would make the Jedi feel less picked-on.
 
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I fully agree with blob speed slowdown.

Ideally, something also needs to be done with SBD.

This would effectively render it useless just as with grip. It's physically (yes-yes, physics in star wars) wrong, because the electricity stays in body after it was hit. I think lightning is in a very good spot atm, it fulfills it's only purpose to stop enemy fire whilst you're trying to slash him. If he's good enough to strafe-jump away, try it again.
LOL. Are you saying this because this is the only way you get kills as a sith? Because "I'll cheese fry a gunner so that he can't really kill me and can only run, but he can't run that fast because it also microstuns him, so sux to be him" - is apparently good game-design.

Few patches ago there were major changes in the core of saber vs gunner balancing, and it all revolved around the very base of the matchup: how saberist alone without any forcepowers can kill a gunnder of different classes in different situations, that also only have their base stats and do not use abilities. This was worked on and fixed, and currently looks reasonably good for both sides, offering many options to the players that know what they are doing.

Now, after the base level is established and looks reasonably good, the next logical (and, IMO, necessary) step is working on abilities balance of all the classes, which includes forcepowers. In fact, I think, not doing any changes to forcepowers will actually make the changes to the core mechanics meaningless.

In all honesty, many forcepowers are in dire need of change. Ideally I would like us to achieve a system where all powers have their use in amplifying forceusers' options and adding them new leverages to in-game situations. Currently, they either don't or do it too hard. Neither is good.

I think the role of the forcepowers is to enchance the core gameplay of the forceuser class, allowing him some additional options, or helping fullfill certain roles as a teamate. Ideally, these options should be just enough to spice up and refresh gameplay a bit. Not more than that.

The powers that are currently too useful in my opinion: push, lightening, maybe sense (not so sure on the last one). The powers that currently look too useless or difficult to apply: speed, and arguably mindtrick (although I don't really see any good place for mindtrick at this point).

I think the changes for lightening are worth a try.

I think changes to push do nothing useful. I really do not see how it helps the situation. The way push is right now people will still get it, it is too useful in comparison to any other force power to pass by.

My current opinion about push and its role in the game is roughly as follows.
It successfully accomplishes the role of a great support ability: you can push nades and rockets that fly at your team back to the enemy. This also requires application of some skill from the player: you need to time this kind of push correctly, you need to aim your crosshair at the correct angle to make sure you don't push all this stuff right into your teammates, etc... It even depends on what exactly you push: rockets and blobs behave differently from nades. It is AOE, and the range is big enough both for Push 2 and Push 3 to allow comfortable use of the ability, but not too large to make it overpowered in that sense. It also has long after-use vulnerability window, therefore you can't just use it completely thoughless, you can be punished for a bad use. All of which is very good and makes push a very nice ability.

Now, the problem I see with push is that it also does so much more. The effect is instant right when you press the button. And the impact it has on the gunners is potentially huge: knockback is in most situations a life or death question for most gunner classes. And this effect has the very same huge AOE The counter to that is relatively simple: walk or crouch, switching to these modes is also instant, so it kind of works out...

But does all this really result in interesting gameplay? I don't think it does. Gunner can't really react to push. He has to guess. Jedi can't really react to a running gunner. He has to guess. And the impact of the movement speed changes is so huge both classes are constantly effectively playing around Push, which makes it a more core part of the mechanics than the actual core mechanics: FP drains by weapons, movement speed of different classes, flinch, etc. It is the most picked, the most useful forcepower, which is one of the forms of bad balance. And I don't think just making it expensive really solves the problem here. Especially doing it just by to points. It is just not a solution.
The proper solution would be changing the way this ability works itself. My rough suggestion:
  • On instant tap Push 2/3 works as knockdown only on the person forceuser is directly aiming at with his crosshair, unless target is standing still/walking/crouching;
  • Holding Push 3 for a moment would make knockdown effect an AOE on button release; I think needs to be held roughly for half as short amount of time as Force Repulse;
  • There should be some sort of animation started and, probably, a sound effect played when the button is held - audio-visual feedback for the opponents to react to;
  • I do not think forceuser should be vulnerable during the windup time, but it is an option; IMO, he should stay just as protected as he normally is and deflect shots normally even during AOE-push windup;
  • Possibly, effect distance for interactions with characters should be decreased for Push 3 and potentially Push 2;
  • Effect of Push against nades/rockets/blobs should stay exactly the same as in current version (same range too), for held push taking effect on release;
Some of the possible resulting consequences:
Since push, the way it is right now, constantly affects core gameplay of the matchup, these very core mechanics may need a buff. If a gunner can run more freely in some situations, forceuser may find himself in a situation when he just can't catch-up, making it quite unfair. FP drains decrease may be necessary if this turns out to be the case.
 
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