Adjustments to General Gameplay

GoodOl'Ben

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For the past couple months we have been gathering up ideas and thoughts on how to alter some values to reduce critical breakpoints in the gameplay experience while still staying true to MB2's signature feel. Before even trying them out, we would like to see some discussion on the potential implications and if there are some controversial changes in the mix. None of these changes are final and surely not all of them will ever see the light of day, but many of these ideas attempt to address issues that particularly new players might feel are frustrating.

Note that these changes do not focus on Saber vs Saber mechanics as that is explored elsewhere in Tempest's tweak threads.

General mechanics
  • Getup from knockdown activates 0.5-1 second sooner for single life classes
  • Getup animation from knockdowns changed to a sped up Soldier getup animation while on the ground (mid-air getup is still current coinflip)
  • Can't hack objectives while on fire
  • All single life classes can sideroll upon knockdown except SBD
  • Sonic detonator stuns count as assists
  • Incendiary Grenade flames stop dealing TK points after being lit for 5 seconds
  • Assist TKs can be punished
  • A primed grenade will tick passively to alert for corner camps
These changes would be focused towards reducing frustration, fixing oversights and small changes to make the game look a bit better. The most significant of these are the changes to how knockdowns look and feel.

Currently the knockdown is a very powerful mechanic that creates tension during a fight and allows for powerful crowd control abilities to be potent. It is one of the big things that sets MB2 apart from everything else. However it can prove very frustrating and can feel unavoidable for the less experienced players. By slightly reducing the time it takes for the getup and giving additional control over your destiny, we hope to alleviate general frustration while slightly reducing the game-ending impact of a knockdown.

All primed grenades will tick similar to Concussion Grenades to allow players to detect corner ambushes more reliably. This will also help players read the battlefield better as they can now determine if a grenade has been primed or not without having to hear the priming beeps.
The Force:
  • Pull vulnerability frames changed to match Push
  • Push costs changed from 2-2-8 to 2-4-8. Single target knockdown added for Push 2.
  • Lightning only stuns for the frames that it hits
  • FP drains are no longer capped when not blocking
These changes to the way the Force works are slight tweaks to reduce frustrating behaviour in Pull and Lightning. There was a big cool factor in hitting snipes on Jedi/Sith who were playing carelessly, so we would like to bring that back.

Push 3 is generally perceived to be very powerful and easy to use considering its utility. We are thinking of an indirect nerf by making it cost 2 points more to access. Boosting Push 2 would encourage players to save points for other abilities as long as they are comfortable with aiming at their intended targets. People who can do single-target pushing reliably will be able to do so with less points. However, if someone wants to be a crowd control powerhouse, that is still possible, just with an added cost.
Lightsaber
  • Passive deflects should never fly behind the deflecter
  • Increase Flinch range to match Close IDR for better consistency
  • Staff/Duals cost to 0
  • Staff/Duals defense arc to match regular stances
These behavioural changes explain themselves for most part. Staff and Duals are made more accessible, but they lose their defensive bonus. Flinch becomes more reliable and both players can expect a specific result when getting shot.
Frag Grenade
  • Secondary throw FP drain removed
Knockdown is already punishing enough. It also feels inconsistent as it is the only explosive that does this.
Clone Rifle
  • Reduce velocity of both blobs by 15%
The Clone Rifle's blob blasts have become very fast over the course of the years almost sneakily. This has removed a certain feeling of pride and accomplishment from landing air blobs on mandalorians. This also reduces the game ending power the Blob currently holds over Jedi/Sith.
Concussion Grenade
  • Direct hits explode on impact dealing extra damage (10-20 HP)
Bring back some of the old Primary Grenade feel to the Soldier class while giving the Double Conc Build a bit more oomph.
Projectile Rifle
  • Remove firing delay while scoping
  • Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved
  • Adjust ammo available per level 8-12-18
Give the Projectile Rifle back its possibility of quickscoping, but create a requirement of having a setup for making clear shots. Ammo amounts available are also tweaked to make sniping a more conscious decision as it cannot be done wastefully.
Westar M5
  • Increase sniper ammo cost so that the clip can fit 1 less sniper shot
  • Decrease sniper shot base damage by 3
The M5 is largely where it needs to be, but being able to fire so many shots in succession reduces the feeling of every shot counting. In similar fashion the base damage would be decreased just slightly to emphasize the importance of landing two consecutive shots for the kill.
Bowcaster
  • Implement a curved damage increase for the charged shot like with the Disruptor
  • Include a sound effect for charging the shot
  • Fully charged shots are always accurate
The rapid fire/charged shot swap has made the gun feel more like its own thing. It no longer feels like an overpowered E11, even if only at Level 2. The charged shot is given more emphasis while also slightly reducing its initial damage output, while keeping the maximum charge damage the same. Currently the damage adds up too fast resulting in high damage with very little charging required. These changes just nudge us more towards making the gun feel as punchy as it felt like in Episode 7.
EE3
  • Sniper shot damage decreased from 100 to 90
The sniper shot damage is reduced slightly to emphasize shots that land on the chest and head.
Disruptor
  • Primary shots pass through targets
  • Increase reload time by 20%
The non-scoped mode gets a fun feature that should make it an interesting option in a tight hallway. The Disruptor reloads very fast and this leaves very small timing windows for enemies to relocate and suppress. Increasing reload time should make sniping a more responsible decision.
Melee
  • Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching
This behaviour inconsistent and the legsweep has a very large hitbox, so knocking down players with it is not exactly as thrilling and skillful as it should be. Now players have some counterplay against it.
Poison Dart
  • Reduce duration by 33%
Poison can feel like a very frustrating ability when stacked as it forces a player out of the fight. It also grants the Bountyhunter a long timing window for pressure or even securing the kill. This change should increase significance of landing consecutive darts and gives the Bountyhunter less time to capitalize.
That was a lot more than I expected. Please take your time to read and think about these changes. As said above, none of them are set in stone and are more-so starting points rather than final values.

We would love to hear your thoughts. What sounds good? What sounds bad? Why? I am fond of all of these changes and truly believe they make the game more nuanced without feeling too heavy-handed. I am sure we'll disagree on some of the more drastic points, but I would love to see you also highlight which of the changes make the game better even if you feel strongly against some other features.
 
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----Kas----

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  • Getup from knockdown activates 0.5-1 second sooner for single life classes
  • Getup animation from knockdowns changed to a sped up Soldier getup animation while on the ground (mid-air getup is still current coinflip)
  • Can't hack objectives while on fire
  • All single life classes can sideroll upon knockdown except SBD
  • Sonic detonator stuns count as assists
  • Incendiary Grenade flames stop dealing TK points after being lit for 5 seconds
  • Assist TKs can be punished
  • A primed grenade will tick passively to alert for corner camps
Great ideas!

Push costs changed from 2-2-8 to 2-4-8. Single target knockdown added for Push 2.
Very nice one.
Why don't you do the same for force pull? For example let pull 3 be stronger, let's say pull three closest enemies and their guns and pull 2 would be like pull 3 today.

  • Passive deflects should never fly behind the deflecter

  • Increase Flinch range to match Close IDR for better consistency

  • Staff/Duals cost to 0

  • Staff/Duals defense arc to match regular stances
I like that.

EE3
  • Sniper shot damage decreased from 100 to 90
I totally don't like that. Mando will have to snipe jedi two times. The usefulness of ee-3 will drastically decrease. Even now most classes can survive chest shot or even head shot.
 

----Kas----

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Ok, hmm where can I find the damage formulas for each bodypart? I was always curious about it.
 
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Only lightning 3 will actually be useful if you make it stun only while it hits. With M5 I think it's a highly balanced gun that should be left alone. Also, would side roll work when being pushed? If so that would greatly decrease the usefulness of push and pull. If you reduce duration of poison darts, I think you should also increase damage. Disruptor is already underused as it is, why would you nerf it? I also think projectile rifle should be left alone. Besides that I think the rest are good and this is a good starting points for improving the game.
 
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Most of these sound fine, but we'll never know how it plays until we play it. I like changes even if they're kinda bad, gives the game a refreshing feeling to it, if we played the same build for 10 years, we'd be more likely to quit.

I guess the biggest game changer here is the ones messing with the knock down mechanics/quicker getups, I'm most curious how that's gonna turn out. Surely it will be disadvantageous mainly for jedi/sith.

I miss 1 thing from the list. Nerfing ion blob stun time against non-droid classes. Maybe even make it uneffective against humanoids, I believe it was implemented as a counter feature against SBD/deka, not to stun a bh/sith/ET/mando for 3 seconds.

Melee
  • Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching
I only fully disagree with this. It's the main benefit of the move if we compare it to flying kick. Crouching is counterplay against flying kick and normal kicks. Only real use of the move is against jedi/sith anyway, but I believe currently if you crouch+block (or maybe even if you stand+block), then you only stagger, so that's already an option. Other than that with good movement jedi can just outrange you with the saber, there's also an option to jump a little if you don't have time to get out of sweep range, not to mention quick getup, which often prevents any real punishment of any knockdown.
Gunners shouldn't be close enough to fall for a sweep unless they decide to melee. In melee you crouch+melee block, there's that counterplay.
The sweep is really good cause of it's fast startup. A jedi can be inches away from slashing you down, you activate sweep and your sweep will connect before the saber hits you. That's something you can't do with normal kicks or uppercut (uppercut needs some love, sweep and flying kick are far better options), you need to time it better. Doing something about that fast startup might be a better approach if you don't want to leave this move alone.
 

DaloLorn

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Interesting... frightening, but interesting...

Edit: Pull should probably be buffed a little to be more in line with Push, though - either through lower prices or better functionality. Right now, I can see very little reason to take Pull 3 over Push 2.
 
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I like many of these changes, push really is the biggest issue when it comes to jedi/sith being OP, so it definitely needs these changes. Its also good to see that some gunner classes are actually getting nerfed, however imo not in the right places. The Mando seems quite balanced to me, same with the disruptor. the most OP gunner classes still seem to be untouched (hero P3, SBD, wookie) although clones blob got nerfed so thank god for that.

Lightsaber
  • Passive deflects should never fly behind the deflecter
  • Increase Flinch range to match Close IDR for better consistency
  • Staff/Duals cost to 0
  • Staff/Duals defense arc to match regular stances
Please, please, dont reduce the defense arc of staff/duals. 1.4 already made BWs so much more common, honestly defense arcs need a big increase in general, just against sabers if thats possible. 1.4 has brought on a BW kind of meta, I atleast have never seen such a large number of BW hunters as i do now. Its quite the problem, especially in 1vX situations in Open. Fighting a pack of BW hunting Jedi/Sith is one of the most frustrating things iv encountered in MB2, because of the changes made in 1.4. BWs are no fun, I think we can all agree. If the enemy is any decent (which you dont even need to be to BW hunt) its basically impossible to defend against with single saber styles regardless of how good you are. You will either get BWed (most likely) or lose all your bp to running constantly to protect your back. Duals/Staff are really the only way to counter gangs of sith/jedi...

Personally I dont think flinch needed a buff, considering it was already a buff to every gunner class... making weapons like the CR2/3 or SBD stupidly strong with their fire rate.... honestly atleast with clone, flinch is quite unfair, and it or CR2/CR3 should be adjusted.


The Force:
  • Pull vulnerability frames changed to match Push
  • Push costs changed from 2-2-8 to 2-4-8. Single target knockdown added for Push 2.
  • Lightning only stuns for the frames that it hits
  • FP drains are no longer capped when not blocking
So this means FP drains are getting increased while not blocking right? Really not necessary imo. FP drains feel quite balanced to me, if your going to make this change you should atleast reduce the drains while blocking like it was in a previous version. Personally, I cant remember what version it was, but besides the super slow FP regen, I REALLY enjoyed when blocking blaster fire had a big effect on FP drains. While the high FP drains when not blocking made me really think about how I wanted to attack, the low FP drains while blocking allowed me to stand my ground against the gunner gang-bangs that like to roam around.

1.4 changed many things, and one of the biggest results of these changes (imo) is that it became alot more difficult to survive when you're outnumbered. The change to parrying, reduced BP damage on combos and reduced BP damage of swings while running, combined with flinch and reduced defensive arcs, really screws over the "lonewolf" type players out there, or just the people who find themselves heavily outnumbered. Reduced BP drains while blocking really felt good because it was FINALLY a tool I could use against hordes of enemies. We need more tools like this - In other fast paced combat games similar to MB2, if you're good enough, you can deal with hordes of enemies by killing them quickly, using aggression, speed and misdirection. This doesnt work in MB2 because of of the BP system - when you are 1v2 other saberist you automatically have to chew through twice the amount of BP points, a huge disadvantage that doesnt take skill into account, made worst by the fact that the saber system punishes you for running. I know this isnt the place for saber vs saber discussion but I only mention this because if you add one or two gunners to those two sith/jedi who are ganging you, well.... the game doesnt give you many tools to defend yourself. Increasing FP drains while not blocking would make these kind of situations so much worst. So personally id like to see us go back to the system where there are very high FP drains while not blocking, and very low FP drains while blocking, if there must be a change.


Lightning really does not need a nerf - I mean yes, Lightning can be VERY powerful, to the point of being OP, but at the same time Sith need this ability to counter other OP classes. For example the Hero - a good Hero is basically unkillable to a Sith because of their move speed and dash... lightning is the one reliable counter to Heros that Sith have (even then its a LONG war of attrition....). Pull can work too, but good Heros will never let you pull them and will just 1 shot you with P3. Clones as well, lightning is one of the few counters sith have to packs of clones, which have become incredibly OP due to flinch and their insane fire rate... however the nerf to blobs may fix this so...

I apologize for so much text, but I love MB2, I think its one of the greatest games around, however i have been INCREDIBLY frustrated by 1.4, to the point where iv stopped playing. Id like to do whatever I can to help improve it, so I hope my input is of use....



TL;DR - I like that some gunner classes are finally getting a nerf, however I feel they are in the wrong place. Good that push/knockdown is getting a nerf, same with clone blobs, thank god for that. Please dont nerf defensive arcs, on anything. Defensive arcs, against sabers, need a buff, there are too many BWs in 1.4. Lightning doesnt need a nerf, its a necessary evil to deal with things like Hero dash. If you must change FP drains, increase FP drains while not blocking, decrease FP drains while blocking. The power of outnumbering your opponent needs a nerf. Skill should be rewarded more in 1vX situations, considering the mechanics of this game already favor the many over the few.
 
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Sir Crusher

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  • Getup from knockdown activates 0.5-1 second sooner for single life classes
  • Getup animation from knockdowns changed to a sped up Soldier getup animation while on the ground (mid-air getup is still current coinflip)
  • Can't hack objectives while on fire
  • All single life classes can sideroll upon knockdown except SBD
  • Sonic detonator stuns count as assists
  • Incendiary Grenade flames stop dealing TK points after being lit for 5 seconds
  • Assist TKs can be punished
  • A primed grenade will tick passively to alert for corner camps
I agree with most of them, but I think side rolls should come with a cost, for every class that uses it. just like the close combat purchase.

The Force:
  • Pull vulnerability frames changed to match Push
  • Push costs changed from 2-2-8 to 2-4-8. Single target knockdown added for Push 2.
  • Lightning only stuns for the frames that it hits
  • FP drains are no longer capped when not blocking
If lightning will have this nerf, I can't think of anything other than increasing the damage and adding ammo drain to balance it out.

Lightsaber
  • Passive deflects should never fly behind the deflector
  • Increase Flinch range to match Close IDR for better consistency
  • Staff/Duals cost to 0
  • Staff/Duals defense arc to match regular stances
Staff is too overpowered to be free.

Frag Grenade
  • Secondary throw FP drain removed
Even with the knockdown tweaks presented here, the second throw is still overpowered against gunner classes.

Clone Rifle
  • Reduce velocity of both blobs by 15%
Blob will still be overpowered against gunners. It's better to remove it and rework ION blast, by adding knockdown to a fully charged shot & decreasing the gravity of the projectile, for example.

Projectile Rifle
  • Remove firing delay while scoping
  • Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved
  • Adjust ammo available per level 8-12-18
I'm a little bit skeptic about that, but I'd have to see it.

Westar M5
  • Increase sniper ammo cost so that the clip can fit 1 less sniper shot
  • Decrease sniper shot base damage by 3
ok

Bowcaster
  • Implement a curved damage increase for the charged shot like with the Disruptor
  • Include a sound effect for charging the shot
  • Fully charged shots are always accurate
ok

EE3
  • Sniper shot damage decreased from 100 to 90
I'd have to see it.

Disruptor
  • Primary shots pass through targets
  • Increase reload time by 20%
haha, this will be fun

Melee
  • Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching
ok

Poison Dart
  • Reduce duration by 33%
Poison dart shouldn't be hitscan. It doesn't require much skill but is very rewarding.
 
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  • A primed grenade will tick passively to alert for corner camps
Good idea.

Not too sure about this though :-

Concussion Grenade

Direct hits explode on impact dealing extra damage
This just takes away the skill element about concussion nades. i. e timing it right. I mean they are usually only used for the knockdown.

To be honest I was kind of hoping the secondary ability on normal grenades would get removed. There's too many knockdowns in MB2 in my opinion, and using this ability requires ZERO skill and is, 9 times out of 10 , guaranteeing you a kill.
 
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I'd like to see all those changes implemented except for this one:

Projectile Rifle
  • Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved
This means Hero and BH become mainly defensive snipers, which leads to the offensive team having one viable sniper class less than the defense. While that doesn't matter that much in public open mode i still don't like the decision.

(Well, the EE-3 change is imo the wrong approach, but i don't really want to say anything anymore on that topic, so i'd take it)

Off-topic: Does this mean Dodge is seen as balanced in it's current state?

  • Can't hack objectives while on fire
Hex, did you tell on me? =)
 
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|CB|Lyrion

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I deeply like these changes you made on Snipers, way to start 2018 on the right foot!

Other then that, I also like all of the others tweaks for the grand part of it.

❤

 
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StarWarsGeek

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I really like almost all of these changes except for the following:

Projectile Rifle
  • Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved
1.5s is a long time to stand still for an accurate shot. I think this makes proj rifle far too similar to ruptor. Even though one is charging damage and the other is charging accuracy, you're generally not going to want to take a shot until you're nearly fully charged.

I like the focus mechanic on it's own merits, it's just that I think having both snipers on BH becomes redundant.

Westar M5
  • Increase sniper ammo cost so that the clip can fit 1 less sniper shot
  • Decrease sniper shot base damage by 3
Out of all 4 sniper weapons in the game, Westar M5 already seems to be the weakest to me. I don't think it needs further nerfs.

On the other hand, these changes would be good if M5 had its bullet speed increased in compensation. I think that would make it feel more sniper-like.

Melee
  • Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching
Jeob already covered this one nicely. Leg sweep is the only melee counter to crouch, and there are ways to easily avoid it. Making crouch immune to leg sweep would make leg sweep nearly pointless.
 

RC-Delta

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I like pretty much everything except the EE-3 dmg nerf, it's fine, leave it, or take away jedi's dumb damage reduction that came with flinch, (that's there right, or am I just dum?) westsar m5 doesn't need the nerf, i take ammo 2 for mando and arc, and pretty much run out of ammo in decent size games (10-12 people on both sides) so having to think and reserve myself more for arc with ammo just feels sucky, the only thing I've seen people complain on arc with is dex 3 (and if that gets taken away where they can shoot, I'll never touch the class again, it'll just be meme rocket class) so I don't feel like it's necessary. Also, why can slide kick not knock people down when crouching, that's literally how I deal with people crouching, is there something else that knocks down a crouching person I missed, or do I just have to insta kata them now? Mainly I just have a problem with the M5 sniper. I think it's fine where it is.
 

Tempest

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Lastt said:
Please, please, dont reduce the defense arc of staff/duals. 1.4 already made BWs so much more common, honestly defense arcs need a big increase in general, just against sabers if thats possible. 1.4 has brought on a BW kind of meta, I atleast have never seen such a large number of BW hunters as i do now. Its quite the problem, especially in 1vX situations in Open.
It's actually incredibly hard to backwack someone unless they are turned really far away from you. I've demonstrated this to a number of people who claim that it's super easy to get backwacked and it changes their opinion pretty quickly. I'd be happy to show you as well. The reason why people hunt for BWs now is because it takes 10 years to chew through someone's BP -> might as well just BW them, especially if they're outnumbered.

So this means FP drains are getting increased while not blocking right?
This would only affect higher damage weapons (it's not increasing the FP drains, just not capping them).

For those curious about ee3 number tweaks (this is with the adjustment listed in the OP during some quick tests):
On the note of EE3:
- 270 damage on head shots (vs armor 2 hero)
- Did 62 damage on chest shot with remaining 38 (seems to average 60-65 health, ~35-40 health remaining)
To clarify on the 2nd part, that's dealing 60-65 health after removing all armor (at armor 2).

Manyo said:
Off-topic: Does this mean Dodge is seen as balanced in it's current state?
I personally don't think it's balanced and don't know why it got so over-tuned.
 
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