Your 5 changes to sabering

[noel]

If you could make 5 changes to sabering what would they be and why?

Here are mine:

​

1. Bring styles closer together in speed. Make red a bit faster. Purple is probably fine because of yaw. Yellow is fine. Cyan is probably borderline okay too. Blue a bit slower.

2. Make running less OP. Flat high BP drain on swings whilst running so that people don't play like a pussy/pbing is actually used instead of dodging. Atm you might as well dodge because the chance of you dodging = higher than you pbing, resulting in duels which don't fit up to the name 'Moviebattles'. One person runs in does a combo and runs out, then the other person does it, its like Runescape combat.

3. Bring back semi pb. Would make parry spamming less effective etc.

4. Make swingblock less difficult. This would nullify the power slap -> 4 hit -> repeat has. At the minute its very easy to get mblocked/slapped because your opponent can mblock/slap before your swingblock registers/you can input it quick enough. Make a safe zone just before/after a swing of maybe 0.5 seconds so that swingblocking is more manageable.

5. Make yellow the baseline style. This is a big one, but basically balance everything out to fit with yellow and they should fit with eachother decently too:
Blue halfswinging is broken because of the interrupts it causes, damage is too high and the perk is pretty strong too.
Cyan is very easily spammable, random perfect parries are irritating, hard to pb and mb because of its speed so damage should be lower.
Purple's perk is OP, especially with how valuable ACM, removing/nerfing its perk would make it balance well.
Staff animations are hard to see, very effective at meaningless spam because of its speed. Speed + power + unclear animations = too strong.
Yellow v yellow combat is and has been the most fun for a long time so yellow is fine.
Dualies are fine imo, at least against yellow they balance well.
Red balances nicely with yellow, a slight speed increase would make it perfect.

I know this is another thread talking about sabering but I kind of want to see if I share the same ideas as other people in the community/whether theres a majority who want something or whether we're split.​

 

[StarWarsGeek]

2. Make a dumbed down version of that system for open servers (or create something new along the lines of Bens proposal). Something that plays much faster, simpler and intuitive.

This please.
Current system is far more complicated than it needs to be. It's not good for gameplay and it gives the most iconic StarWars classes that new players want to use absurdly steep learning curves. I really don't care what happens to dueling in duel mode, but dueling in open mode really needs to be more intuitive. Getting rid of current camera based pblock in favor of the old saber collision based pblock would be a good start in making things intuitive IMO (or even something simpler as in Ben's suggestion). Easy to learn, hard to master should be the goal.

Also finally getting to a point where the saber system can stop being overhauled every other patch would be nice.

 

[Defiant]

Revert everything back to b18

B17 or bust!

 

[Hessu]

cyan is underpowered, i'd love if it had 10 swings n shit like that )

 

[Sir Crusher]

I'm not sure about what I'd choose for mechanical changes. I'd add saber locking in place of the regular Mblock disarm for the Cinematic feeling. On the movie saber duels we see lots of cool saber locks.

 

[yoinkboink]

Remove all options that encourage/reward spamming your opponent.

 

[takuta pls]

Remove all options that encourage/reward spamming your opponent.

defensive meta should not be encouraged lest we have another 1.4.0

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

by that do you mean that the pb zones are removed or? that seems way too easy and like fights would never get anywhere.

As long as it's offset by high BP damage, it would turn out okay. Fights would be on a constant razor's edge and only the focused keep up. I dislike the current perfect block mechanic as explaining it to a noob so that he can reproduce it is borderline impossible. You need graphs, videos and what have you to bring full understanding on the concept.

 

[Hexodious]

1. Perfect block whenever crosshair is over attacker

I feel this would be too easy, you'd have to make each successful hit drain almost all BP (unless that is what you intend with the fast regens you mention in your post), and everyone will be running in circles to get around the block, similar to just going for the back. It would also be easily exploitable for aimbot.

What I like about the current pblock mechanic is that it feels very active and rewarding, but I do agree there is a learning curve that is unnecessarily harsh for newer players.

I do like what some other players wrote about a hybrid system. So there are perfect blocks (current) for that extra bonus, and auto-blocks for positioning of the saber which could negate some of the damage (old system) but again that could be considered convoluted for some.

I do not agree with splitting the system, I like playing both Duel and Open - I don't want to learn two different systems for each, I get rewarded in open for going to the duel server which adds to personal progression. A higher damaging system in general would elevate a lot of Open mode issues.

 

[noel]

I feel this would be too easy, you'd have to make each successful hit drain almost all BP (unless that is what you intend with the fast regens you mention in your post), and everyone will be running in circles to get around the block, similar to just going for the back. It would also be easily exploitable for aimbot.

What I like about the current pblock mechanic is that it feels very active and rewarding, but I do agree there is a learning curve that is unnecessarily harsh for newer players.

I do like what some other players wrote about a hybrid system. So there are perfect blocks (current) for that extra bonus, and auto-blocks for positioning of the saber which could negate some of the damage (old system) but again that could be considered convoluted for some.

I do not agree with splitting the system, I like playing both Duel and Open - I don't want to learn two different systems for each, I get rewarded in open for going to the duel server which adds to personal progression. A higher damaging system in general would elevate a lot of Open mode issues.

Yeah I like that to an extent being good at duel gives you at least somewhat of an advantage in open.

I don't think the saber system is neccessarily even that complicated, there are a few mechanics like perfect parry that arent very intuitive but otherwise once you've had swingblock and pb explained to you it isn't really hard to learn, it's just hard to get good at.

this is made worse by the fact there are people who have been playing the mod for years, so the skill level on average is very high

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I do like what some other players wrote about a hybrid system. So there are perfect blocks (current) for that extra bonus, and auto-blocks for positioning of the saber which could negate some of the damage (old system) but again that could be considered convoluted for some.

It would be hella convoluted.

I feel this would be too easy, you'd have to make each successful hit drain almost all BP (unless that is what you intend with the fast regens you mention in your post), and everyone will be running in circles to get around the block, similar to just going for the back. It would also be easily exploitable for aimbot.

I'd be very much inclined to turn BP into a more immediate resource rather than the macro economy it is now. I have reason to believe it wouldn't be as easy as people make it out to be, especially in Open.

We could include guard-breaking attacks for spin moves for instance or guard-break upon hitting a non-blocking attacker.

Going a bit too in depth here for this thread, but I think with these changes to the core, the system would be more easy to pick up and the fights would be more exciting.

 

[Hexodious]

When I imagine it I get a basejka vibe for people trying to get around block. I want to see what others opinions on it are though.

I am all for big bp damage though.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

The more I think about it, the system could even be simplified just a bit rather than going insane on the overly simplistic route. It would make it more easier to grasp and reliable to reproduce: Look left to block left, look right to block right, look center to block center. This way the system retains some intricacy, while makes it less about trying to hit invisible boxes with your crosshair.

 

[Smee]

The more I think about it, the system could even be simplified just a bit rather than going insane on the overly simplistic route. It would make it more easier to grasp and reliable to reproduce: Look left to block left, look right to block right, look center to block center. This way the system retains some intricacy, while makes it less about trying to hit invisible boxes with your crosshair.

Please tell me you're joking

 

[Hexodious]

Well if you wanted to simplify it, you could do so while still keeping the "aim where the saber comes from" idea:

Current (I think? correct me if i am wrong)

Simple

Alongside increase BP damage that is. Since its easier to block, damage has to be higher (well I want it higher either way).

Edit: them microsoft pain skills

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Please tell me you're joking

To me a good system is easy to learn by watching and not obfuscated in layers upon layers of hidden mechanics. The current system is like joining a kids' playground game where the other kids consciously didn't tell you all the rules leaving you at a strong disadvantage. Even if they explained you the rules, they gave so many rules that you'll not be able to keep track of them all.

This is coming from someone who knows how it works, but still finds it to be really bad game design.

The current hidden mechanics bring depth. It is fun to those who've invested hours on perfecting their skills by first learning from some mysterious sensei they happened to meet. As such using the system as a whole is only fun for very select people.

Complicating the system alienates players. This is evident when we have people asking for Open mode to have its own system. The mechanics are too nuanced to be something you can grasp in Open when it is only a very specific niche interaction between two classes among many. This is why I think the nuance should come from something visible such as animation/aim/position management.

What bothers me is that I know the concept, but I'll miss some invisible box that I should have built into my intuition through repeated controlled practice. The key issue being controlled practice. We do not have a practice mode where these boxes are shown, there is no way to learn this except trial and error 1-on-1 with a friend uninterrupted after being told by your friend that this mechanic exists and that you need to aim for the boxes. You will not grasp this when there's bullets flying, you have to be conscious of snipers, grenades, flanking enemies and what not. You're already managing so many layers of sensory overload that any intricacies such as the precise PB zones will be lost to you.

You know a game's mechanics are bad if you put two novice players in and they will not be able to tell you how every core mechanic works within 1 hour of playing.

Simple
Alongside increase BP damage that is. Since its easier to block, damage has to be higher (well I want it higher either way).

Might be better than what we have now.

 

[Manyo]

I do not agree with splitting the system, I like playing both Duel and Open - I don't want to learn two different systems for each, I get rewarded in open for going to the duel server which adds to personal progression. A higher damaging system in general would elevate a lot of Open mode issues.

That's a fair point. Having 2 systems would be a very hard compromise that would lead to bad game design and confusion.
But i just don't have the feeling that the current approach considers enough how the game plays in open mode. And here is why:

A. If you fight a saberist and a gunner, you have 2 choices:
1.Try to kill the gunner very fast before your fp are low enough to get abused by the saberist (if both gunner and saberist don't mess up, you're dead)
2.Play defensive and let them slowly chip away both your fp and bp, which will force you to a desperate move or a retreat.
B. If you fight 2 saberists, you better hope to mblock or backslash one (you shouldn't move too much tho, so hope for someone to just turn around). Otherwise you're dead.
C. When you find yourself in a 1vs1, theres a high chance you won't finish the duel before someone else shows up, unless there is a big skill gap.
D. When multiple gunners and saberists face eachother you can't use the strenghts of the current system to take one saberist out fast. So you're either waiting, trying to backslash a saberist or killing a gunner.

All of the situations above will always play out like that, no matter which minor changes you make to the current system. The point im trying to make here is that the slow and complex duelling system completely falls flat in open mode. I don't believe this is anything but a huge compromise just to have a system high end 1on1-only players favour.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the current system is bad and sucks out all the fun out of open mode. I do think however that it's fair as an open mode player to wish for a design that prioritizes open mode.
A simpler and faster system doesn't mean it can't have a deep enough skill ceiling to still be fun in duel mode. It just means it would take away the old very high skill ceiling a few have reached.

I realize that a huge amount of effort went into the current system, and i regret not having said my opinion years ago, because now some people seem to have invested too much into it to even consider a new direction.

 

[Hexodious]

Which is why more damage is a main thing I want, which would make the system faster in openmode and simply shorten duel exchanges. The open beta had it quite nice for damage values.

 

[SeV]

Which is why more damage is a main thing I want, which would make the system faster in openmode and simply shorten duel exchanges. The open beta had it quite nice for damage values.

I think that BP should be a primary mechanic, which is why I was fading out ACM in my suggestions. The old builds, especially pre-aimed PB, was all about BP damage and not about ACM. Higher BP damages and slower regen, coupled with some boons for people who master the defensive mechanics (whatever they are), seems to be the best option. I don't want no watered down simplistic garbage like ben has been suggesting for years. And the high damage was pretty much the only good thing about the open beta. Though I believe the faster regen is also key here. We don't need extremely high BP damage if the regen is slowed down a bit.

I also object to people saying that the inclusion of stuff based on the lightsaber blade is unintuitive. It is in fact the most intuitive of mechanics you could put in and would serve to give some elegance and depth to teh system and distinguish bodyhits from lightsaber blade hits. I think that distinction is worth having.

The best thing you can do for open mode though is boost the BP damage and end the reliance on ACM to drain your opponents.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I don't want no watered down simplistic garbage like ben has been suggesting for years.

To be fair, it's been a thought of mine for like a year at best.

The last time I had any key involvement in sabers ideawise was pre-V0. The idea was promptly discarded after outcry from people who didn't even try it and quite frankly the system has felt rubbish after having played with that.

Never forget :')

The other time I had a lot of input was the transition from B19 to RC1.

 

[Hexodious]

To be fair all this talk is about drastic changes, the thing I want most is less drastic changes every build. Minor buffs/nerfs/visual changes only please. Based on non-revamp stuff, here are my revised 5 things I'd like changed:

• Tweak: Increase overall BP damage.
• Tweak: Increase ACM Gain/Drain.
• Tweak: Staff/Duals cost 0 instead of 2 but Staff/Duals have normal blocking arc vs sabers.
• Tweak: Cyan can only Perfect Parry stagger on the first hit in its combo instead of every hit.
• Visual: Add visual only animation change to mblock vs swingblock combo-interrupt rather than nothing happening.

tl;dr faster fights with less overall reliance on ACM as it comes and goes much quicker.