Your 5 changes to sabering

[noel]

If you could make 5 changes to sabering what would they be and why?

Here are mine:

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1. Bring styles closer together in speed. Make red a bit faster. Purple is probably fine because of yaw. Yellow is fine. Cyan is probably borderline okay too. Blue a bit slower.

2. Make running less OP. Flat high BP drain on swings whilst running so that people don't play like a pussy/pbing is actually used instead of dodging. Atm you might as well dodge because the chance of you dodging = higher than you pbing, resulting in duels which don't fit up to the name 'Moviebattles'. One person runs in does a combo and runs out, then the other person does it, its like Runescape combat.

3. Bring back semi pb. Would make parry spamming less effective etc.

4. Make swingblock less difficult. This would nullify the power slap -> 4 hit -> repeat has. At the minute its very easy to get mblocked/slapped because your opponent can mblock/slap before your swingblock registers/you can input it quick enough. Make a safe zone just before/after a swing of maybe 0.5 seconds so that swingblocking is more manageable.

5. Make yellow the baseline style. This is a big one, but basically balance everything out to fit with yellow and they should fit with eachother decently too:
Blue halfswinging is broken because of the interrupts it causes, damage is too high and the perk is pretty strong too.
Cyan is very easily spammable, random perfect parries are irritating, hard to pb and mb because of its speed so damage should be lower.
Purple's perk is OP, especially with how valuable ACM, removing/nerfing its perk would make it balance well.
Staff animations are hard to see, very effective at meaningless spam because of its speed. Speed + power + unclear animations = too strong.
Yellow v yellow combat is and has been the most fun for a long time so yellow is fine.
Dualies are fine imo, at least against yellow they balance well.
Red balances nicely with yellow, a slight speed increase would make it perfect.

I know this is another thread talking about sabering but I kind of want to see if I share the same ideas as other people in the community/whether theres a majority who want something or whether we're split.​

 

[SK5]

1. Remove BP for sabering and use the meter for blocking gunfire only; force is separate used for force powers but only regens during combat and you get some for killing an enemy

2. Remove swingblock. Introduce a directional based saber system. Similar to base; you attack a frontal open spot of your enemy during their swing then you kill them

3. Blocking other sabers is done by simply holding right click as usual, but now runs on a system like reverse ACM - the more you block without attacking back the dimmer your light saber icon gets; whenever it gets too dim you're prone to disarms or drop your saber. On the flip side if you spam attacks on a blocking opponent you get no combat multiplier, but you know you're still working to beating the saber out of their hands but opening yourself up for a counter.

4. Introduce a panel where you can bind directional lightsaber swings to specific buttons

5. Hmmmmm I'll get back to this

lol this is blasphemy

 

[redeyejedi]

lol this is blasphemy

Some say a blasphemer, some say a visionary...

But in all seriousness it probably wouldn't work but that type of thinking is what I think the mod needs. The sabering system needs a complete overhaul and a departure from the BP babysitting style we have now; I support moving to a system that feels more like a martial art and less like I'm a Sock-Em Bopper robot with a lightsaber exchanging hits until one of our heads pops off.

Little things like tweaks to swingblock timing windows and where the cursor should be to enable PB, etc aren't really accomplishing anything in my eyes. The system needs a rework

 

[noel]

I support moving to a system that feels more like a martial art and less like I'm a Sock-Em Bopper robot with a lightsaber exchanging hits until one of our heads pops off.

It doesn't really feel like that at all though

Most duelists can predict their opponents BP or at least if they're winning or not in a duel

 

[redeyejedi]

It doesn't really feel like that at all though

Most duelists can predict their opponents BP or at least if they're winning or not in a duel

It feels exactly like that to me for the entire 10+ years I've played. I still enjoy playing Jedi and I don't think the system feels BAD, but the very concept to me of holding down block and having a pool of Invincibility points that slowly dwindle based on the way you play paddy-cake with your opponent just misses the mark entirely.

Ever since the introduction of the concept we've just been tweaking it, there's never been a renaissance of thought around BP and sabering. We got new styles, new moves, new framework around it but the part of it that remains the same after all these years is the part I've never liked.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

It feels exactly like that to me for the entire 10+ years I've played. I still enjoy playing Jedi and I don't think the system feels BAD, but the very concept to me of holding down block and having a pool of Invincibility points that slowly dwindle based on the way you play paddy-cake with your opponent just misses the mark entirely.

Ever since the introduction of the concept we've just been tweaking it, there's never been a renaissance of thought around BP and sabering. We got new styles, new moves, new framework around it but the part of it that remains the same after all these years is the part I've never liked.

What I miss from really old builds is that interrupts were really destructive. Hitting someone mid-attack before their blow lands dealt significant damage. Encouraged structured play and granted infinite comeback potential for those with good timing.

 

[Deleted member 1872]

Remove perks entirely and bring back the speed of old purple.

The rest of the changes to saber combat already presented by SeVeral other people (see what I did there?) are too technical for me - but most of what Ben and SeV have proposed sound like good ideas to me.

I just wanna play purple again and think that perks setup a situation where there is one way to play - a preferred way (a best way) to play specific styles and I like the more personalized elements of saber combat that are unique to who is using them.

Blackwyrm

 

[Tempest]

I miss when sabering was straightforward and simple but still had lots of depth. The times where it wasn't mostly designed around 1v1 scenarios. The times when the only difference between styles was how hard they hit, how much damage they reduced when attacked, their animations, and the people using them. The times where attacking and defending were symmetrical mechanically (both attacking and defending were all fast swings regardless of situation; saber blocking was very clear for both sides as to where to be aiming with your swings or your blocking). The times where just swinging at someone didn't provide you blanket protection unless you also had the timing behind it (current parrying vs old parrying respectively, which allowed you to get body hits during swings in some cases). The times where there were no invisible mechanics and it was just outplaying the other person to win. The times where timing actually made the biggest differences (right now you actually take less damage when hit in the starts of your swings-an interrupt- and the vast majority of damage actually just comes from being hit when you aren't holding the block button). The times where if you tried to flail on someone/just aim for sidewacks, you'd get horribly rekt by someone vastly better than you (RIP watching the old gods of Open mode destroying entire servers with pure skill instead of cheese).

How/why did we end up with this?

 

[noel]

I miss when sabering was straightforward and simple but still had lots of depth. The times where it wasn't mostly designed around 1v1 scenarios. The times when the only difference between styles was how hard they hit, how much damage they reduced when attacked, their animations, and the people using them. The times where attacking and defending were symmetrical mechanically (both attacking and defending were all fast swings regardless of situation; saber blocking was very clear for both sides as to where to be aiming with your swings or your blocking). The times where just swinging at someone didn't provide you blanket protection unless you also had the timing behind it (current parrying vs old parrying respectively, which allowed you to get body hits during swings in some cases). The times where there were no invisible mechanics and it was just outplaying the other person to win. The times where timing actually made the biggest differences (right now you actually take less damage when hit in the starts of your swings-an interrupt- and the vast majority of damage actually just comes from being hit when you aren't holding the block button). The times where if you tried to flail on someone/just aim for sidewacks, you'd get horribly rekt by someone vastly better than you (RIP watching the old gods of Open mode destroying entire servers with pure skill instead of cheese).

How did we end up with this?

I don't know but from playing v0 our current system makes a lot more sense to me, i'm not sure what build you're referring back to but the new pb is far better than the old pb etc.

There are good parts to both the new system and the old system, and I think there can be a compromise drawn between them nicely which will make a nice sabering system which isnt too complex/ambiguous but still remains skillful and unique to the individual : _ )

 

[Tempest]

I think the current PB system is an improvement in that it addressed a number of issues present with the saber just sitting there and removing all damage (plus facedown dueling and other minor things) but it also introduced a mirror of the problem (e.g. if you don't match this specific angle on whoever is attacking you, you take full damage no matter what) + making it almost impossible to actually fight off multiple people without cheesing them (assuming they aren't random new players). It's also a large headache to explain to new players as well as overly difficult for new players to learn/practice due to it being something you have to basically figure out through muscle memory (and hope that ping/whatever other factors don't ruin your zone matching).

 

[noel]

I think the current PB system is an improvement in that it addressed a number of issues present with the saber just sitting there and removing all damage (plus facedown dueling and other minor things) but it also introduced a mirror of the problem (e.g. if you don't match this specific angle on whoever is attacking you, you take full damage no matter what) + making it almost impossible to actually fight off multiple people without cheesing them (assuming they aren't random new players). It's also a large headache to explain to new players as well as overly difficult for new players to learn/practice due to it being something you have to basically figure out through muscle memory (and hope that ping/whatever other factors don't ruin your zone matching).

just make the zones more consistent, i dont think its that hard to work out yourself

your idea with changing the zones based off of angles not positions on the model was good (if im describing what you meant correctly) and would be a nice start.

slightly bigger zones too maybe? It's kind of stupid when you put your saber in near-enough the right place and it doesnt count because you're not quite high enough or whatever

 

[Chorb]

Revert to 1.3. Maybe there is a more stable patch, but this felt like one of the most stable ones at least diviersity wise. Almost all styles were playable and strong in their own way.

My opinion probably does not matter since i dint touch the game for more than a year now. Just checking every so often if the dev team comes back to their sences and makes logical changes for once. Maybe in like 10 years they will figure out flinch was a horrible idea and that playing just yellow vs yellow really is not fun.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Maybe in like 10 years they will figure out flinch was a horrible idea and that playing just yellow vs yellow really is not fun.

Then how would you balance sabre vs gunner oh wise boyo.

 

[Tempest]

Revert to 1.3. Maybe there is a more stable patch, but this felt like one of the most stable ones at least diviersity wise. Almost all styles were playable and strong in their own way.

My opinion probably does not matter since i dint touch the game for more than a year now. Just checking every so often if the dev team comes back to their sences and makes logical changes for once. Maybe in like 10 years they will figure out flinch was a horrible idea and that playing just yellow vs yellow really is not fun.

Flinch was a decent idea with the right intentions but the end result was bad.

Then how would you balance sabre vs gunner oh wise boyo.

The main issue with saber v gunner has long been that the saber side could make a lot of mistakes while gunners could make a single one and be dead as a result. This is mostly an accumulation of a lot of small things (like when you could still do 8 Pushes in a row...) where instead, giant things (like flinch and the compounding messes to counterbalance it) were done that never actually solved the problems in the first place. Addressing the main parts that stand out (like what I just mentioned with Push and things like Sense being a near-permanent wallhack) is a better approach than trying to do some grand overhaul (though it's ironic that I say that, considering I am doing some overhauling of things across the board for Jedi/Sith to make them more than push-bots or cookie cutter builds 90% of the time).

Also, I removed flinch/the FP debuff/other garbage that all went together. Reception was very positive. Hoping to get those changes pushed out along with some other tweaks to help with QoL.

 

[Chorb]

Fair points Tempest.

But i did feel like the gameplay was like this before. You cannot really afford to miss force powers vs one life classes such as arc / hero / BH , ... If there is an equally skilled player on the other side, they will use the tools of their class to make you pay for every missed one, not to mention they end up hitting you during the immunity phase. It almost felt like saberist was on a clock in 1.3, as in you had to do something otherwise you get burned down in a long fight(dash, arc burns you down because double pistols + rifle, bh will simply get you out of FP, bounty will (litterally) outburn you).

Vs two life classes, a one life class is ment to have an advantage. It shoudl be rare they win, and it shoudl be based on a skillshot landing(cough blob, nade, etc). Reinforcement classes are weaker in duels but scale better in groups. Therefore do not expect a solider to ever win vs a sith unless skill difference is massive or they simply are in a group. Do not use solider vs sith duel as basis for your balance!

Dueling wise i coudl write an essay on my toughts but basicly. In 1.3, heavier styles felt like they had a purpose. You woudl outmuscle lighter styles in close range like you shoudl, and they had to use their mobility and swing speed to deal with you. You woudl drain full BP on a person running with 3 red hits, like you shoudl with slow hard to land swings that lose combo if you miss one. And lighter stances were still scary as all hell to go up against. Remember dueling jew and agentoo playing blue, that shit was scary id never get a duel win. Staff was a nice heavy style counter, and everything kind of had a weakness.
What you see in the current system is yellow users facehugging red and getting ahead of even swing trades because parry with no timing what so ever or pblocks. Also you had to not swing before to Pblock which made a hell lot more sence. Same thing during slap shoudl apply imo. All of the depth of the system is lost.

 

[Stassin]

1.3 was THE patch where jedi/sith were the most freakishly OP against gunners out of all patches in the history of MB2, without a single doubt. Additionally 1.3 sabering was the most absurd spamfest ever seen, far more so than 1.4+ or ever before, every single attack of a swing chain would drain max BP so they had massive impact on top of all their other advantages; in previous patches (before v1.0) 1 out of 2 swings in a chain would drain nothing because there was a BP drain cooldown, in v1.4+ swings after the first would drain less (which still promotes more spam than pre-v1.1).

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Flinch was a decent idea with the right intentions but the end result was bad.


The main issue with saber v gunner has long been that the saber side could make a lot of mistakes while gunners could make a single one and be dead as a result. This is mostly an accumulation of a lot of small things (like when you could still do 8 Pushes in a row...) where instead, giant things (like flinch and the compounding messes to counterbalance it) were done that never actually solved the problems in the first place. Addressing the main parts that stand out (like what I just mentioned with Push and things like Sense being a near-permanent wallhack) is a better approach than trying to do some grand overhaul (though it's ironic that I say that, considering I am doing some overhauling of things across the board for Jedi/Sith to make them more than push-bots or cookie cutter builds 90% of the time).

Also, I removed flinch/the FP debuff/other garbage that all went together. Reception was very positive. Hoping to get those changes pushed out along with some other tweaks to help with QoL.

Honestly I don't find flinch that bad because I play soldier most of the time(I'm a masochist I guess or just like grenades too much) and up close yes flinch can prevent a death but most of the time jedi are so mobile that they can dodge the second or third shot and kill you. Grenades are not that viable in 1v1 (due to the grenade lock and fast jedi getup), but also in groups can be harder to capitalize if not everyone is ready for it.
From my point of view being a gunner requires more aiming than being a jedi, but jedis must put more skill in closing the gap and "evading" groups of gunner ( even though some people just rush in with staff and get some free kill because of the movement speed and spamming.

But I'm curious about the changes those modifications will bring to soldiers.

 

[Chorb]

1.3 was THE patch where jedi/sith were the most freakishly OP against gunners out of all patches in the history of MB2, without a single doubt.

More details please. What matchup did you feel was imbalanced. Which classes were involved. Reinforcement classes vs non reinforcement classes? Groups vs 1v1? Never seen any details come out of you except this. Just plain subjective opinions. It almost feels like you got dominated in a pub once and never bothered to improve at the game. Have you actually seen good gunners play open back on 1.3?

Duels were spammy? Maybe. They were quick and punishing if you made mistakes. There were consequences for missing Pblocks. There were consequences for overexending without holding block. But also huge rewards as you ended up with AP advantage pretty quickly if you were good at blocking.

Who are you balancing the game around. The casual or the skilled player? You cant have your cake and eat it too, pick one. Then ill understand your decisions. And i understand its natrual for you to be offended about it, since im hating on the direction you took the game into. But it has to be done.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

1.3 was THE patch where jedi/sith were the most freakishly OP against gunners out of all patches in the history of MB2, without a single doubt. Additionally 1.3 sabering was the most absurd spamfest ever seen, far more so than 1.4+ or ever before, every single attack of a swing chain would drain max BP so they had massive impact on top of all their other advantages; in previous patches (before v1.0) 1 out of 2 swings in a chain would drain nothing because there was a BP drain cooldown, in v1.4+ swings after the first would drain less (which still promotes more spam than pre-v1.1).

Extremely wrong, on all counts. If anything gunning was more consistent in 1.3. It only took 1 P3 shot to kill a Jedi/Sith.

Spamming in 1.3 was an easy way to get yourself killed. The only method to which spamming (which is still possible now) was plausible, is due to swingblock and crouch allowing for 4 hit counter spamming. If you could not swingblock every swing in your combo, spam would be easily countered by slap. 1.4-1.4.3 was awful, yet you are convinced it was an improvement. The idea of PB counter was terrible, the changes to the PB angles were atrocious, the needless removal of perks that were mostly fine and relatively balanced, the random flinch mechanic that was implemented with 0 balancing to compensate for the different fire rates all served to destroy what made 1.3 fun.

It is a common trend I believe in MB2 for some devs to stab around in the dark when trying to fix something, rather than fix the actual cause of the problem. This causes constant circular development patterns where something is removed, then reintroduced, then removed again, only to be reintroduced again.

 

[AaronAaron]

Spamming in 1.3 was an easy way to get yourself killed. The only method to which spamming (which is still possible now) was plausible, is due to swingblock and crouch allowing for 4 hit counter spamming. If you could not swingblock every swing in your combo, spam would be easily countered by slap. 1.4-1.4.3 was awful, yet you are convinced it was an improvement. The idea of PB counter was terrible, the changes to the PB angles were atrocious, the needless removal of perks that were mostly fine and relatively balanced, the random flinch mechanic that was implemented with 0 balancing to it all served to destroy what made 1.3 fun.

Pbing isn't as hard as you all say it is. Imagine having bigger, shitty angles. It would take less skill.

1.4.2 was the best recent patch. All we need to do is revert and remove PB counter! remove all styles except for yellow too

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

1.3 was THE patch where jedi/sith were the most freakishly OP against gunners out of all patches in the history of MB2, without a single doubt.

B14-19 would like to have a word with you.

Anything since then has had very much beatable jedi/sith.

Additionally 1.3 sabering was the most absurd spamfest ever seen, far more so than 1.4+ or ever before, every single attack of a swing chain would drain max BP so they had massive impact on top of all their other advantages; in previous patches (before v1.0) 1 out of 2 swings in a chain would drain nothing because there was a BP drain cooldown, in v1.4+ swings after the first would drain less (which still promotes more spam than pre-v1.1).

Whatever was broken in the animation trees between RC2-V0 era should be fixed. Most spam issues would be solved through that. Animations were far more fluid and reactive in RC1 and prior. Some questionable changes were made during my army absence, but I am not entirely sure when. Largely related to changes in rules for how sabers clash passively with each other.