What are your thoughts on Hero/Bounty Hunters in general?

[Liniyka_xddd]

If you want to change proj, make sure it stays competitive. I don't like most of the suggestions I heard before because:

- If you add some sort of long delay/wait/charge thing, proj will just be outclassed by ruptor
- If you reduce the damage, proj will be outclassed by EE-3

Now, the damage falloff idea sounds kind of interesting (it makes sense). Maybe it's a bit silly, but I would love proj to be made into some sort of close-range instagib cannon with drastic damage reduction on distance, while ruptor becomes your choice if you want to snipe on mid/long ranges. Maybe it's not the best idea, but I like it

And make sure to take care of EE-3 first. I love the gun, but it's just WAY too good. This crazy combination of 28 base damage, running accuracy, flying accuracy, sniper mode with ability to quickscope 2 times and then follow up with a few regular shots on a class with amazing mobility is a bit too much imo.

 

[Tempest]

BHs with armor 3 actually can (just barely) survive a single chest shot, due to the tweak to the way armor reduces dmg a few patches ago.
Which is good IMO. Part of the reason proj is so powerful is because it's so deadly even with a chest shot. Besides the obvious wook/sbd/deka, only arc/bh/mando can survive a chest shot, and only with armor 3. That leaves them with something like 10-15hp, so a single hit from almost anything will kill them.

You can survive shots if they hit your arm with like 5 health but every time I get hit with armor 3 in the chest I die 99% of the time.

What did you have in mind? Wouldn't that make proj too similar to ruptor?

Ruptor still has to be completely bunkered down to even start to get its damage ramping up. Proj would still have damage/FP drains that are competitive but it wouldn't be 1 shotting people right off the bat (plus you can still move around with it before shots and whatnot so it has that difference compared to ruptor).

If you want to change proj, make sure it stays competitive. I don't like most of the suggestions I heard before because:Now, the damage falloff idea sounds kind of interesting (it makes sense). Maybe it's a bit silly, but I would love proj to be made into some sort of close-range instagib cannon with drastic damage reduction on distance, while ruptor becomes your choice if you want to snipe on mid/long ranges. Maybe it's not the best idea, but I like it

It's not a shotgun

 

[Lessen]

@Liniyka_xddd proj IS super strong but I have a comment and a theoretical counterargument. Namely:

The ARC M5 is even more perfectly-accurate-all-the-time, with good damage, coupled with either what's basically a scoped high-speed P3 (with a smaller hitbox) or a sticky area-knockdown.

And both of these super versatile, high power guns still aren't enough to put these badass commando characters (Mando and ARC) definitively above a group of Soldiers, in terms of firepower. They just have very condensed firepower that gives them the potential to deal with more stuff on their own.

The EE-3 certainly seems to me like just a flat-out superior weapon to the proj at mid range or closer. The much higher projectile speed on the proj gives it a clear edge at long range, though, which keeps it relevant.

As an aside, the M5 "sniper mode" seems categorically different from the other sniper weapons. It's more like a super amped up A280. Like, the A280 primary mode has very fast-flying projectiles that make it good for making a bunch of high-precision shots at mid range. The M5 takes this template and amps up the damage (and shot speed?) considerably, while also giving you a ton of viability. The end result is a weapon that, if you're a headshot god, theoretically lets you deal a ton of damage while doing a ton of evasive, aggressive movement and maintaining a constant threat (rather than having long pauses to reload).

Spoiler: edit: bonus, total aside. Random idea.

I would kinda like to see another weapon added in the category of "big cannon gun with very large projectile hitbox." Right now that description applies to P3 and T-21 primary. I dunno. I just think it would be fun to have something that's like the T-21 primary but EVEN MORESO, like, something on the caliber of a main gun on a tank. Like, sort of between a PLX and a blaster. Something that you have to charge up a little and then it fires a bigass, fast-moving projectile that hurts a bunch on a direct hit and also has an explosive radius that deals fairly low damage.

Relative to the PLX, it would require a longer period of stationary charging and deal less damage overall, but the projectile would move faster and be unpushable (cuz it's a blaster shot ultimately). And there'd be more ammo.

My argument for this just boils down to: i think it would fun We already have "extreme firepower" in terms of guns with very high shot speed, but not in terms of just extremely high-caliber big dick guns.

 

[Preston]

Just make it where you take x2 damage while scoped in with proj or something

 

[Lessen]

that would certainly make suppressing fire more effective, although it's already pretty effective when done right (as in: aimed precisely at head height). Would also discourage close range usage in general, while not nerfing the actual damage capabilities of snipers. I like it.

could also do Insurgency style simulated "suppression" when scoped, meaning that if you're scoped and shots are flying by near you, your aim gets all tremulous and blurry and very hard to use. Butt 2x damage would be more straightforward and cleaner.

aha my recent burst of posting pushed me into the Top 20 Most Posts list. I just need three more likes to oust Achilles for Spot #20 on Most Likes, too.

 

[Preston]

that would certainly make suppressing fire more effective, although it's already pretty effective when done right (as in: aimed precisely at head height). Would also discourage close range usage in general, while not nerfing the actual damage capabilities of snipers. I like it.

could also do Insurgency style simulated "suppression" when scoped, meaning that if you're scoped and shots are flying by near you, your aim gets all tremulous and blurry and very hard to use. Butt 2x damage would be more straightforward and cleaner.

aha my recent burst of posting pushed me into the Top 20 Most Posts list. I just need three more likes to oust Achilles for Spot #20 on Most Likes, too.

Well I would prefer no change whatsoever to proj, but since the devs feel like nerfing literally everything, then that would be my solution.

 

[Gumba]

It's not a shotgun

It IS a shotgun. That was the whole thing that made proj unique. For 13 years!( im actually not sure about that, was proj in the first builds?)
High risk high reward gameplay where you hit your shot or die. If you bring REAL shotgun back(ripping through defense even while blocking at melee range) i would even trade in the fast weapon switch you guys gave it some time ago.(I think that was v0?)

Also you talk a lot about proj being super strong and competitive but guess what? You don't even take proj in matches, you want to avoid taking hero as a whole cos it was always considered a weak class when it comes to the essentials of the game(spraying corners,low armor, no hitscan like ruptor, all the abilitys are basically useless surviving tools)
IMO the only reason people use proj right now is because of the lack of good disruptor players. @qwerty could literally kill me even with my fastest popsnipe in dotf main and it made me want to quit every time.

 

[DaloLorn]

@Oddlewad You forgot another interesting bit about the M5 sniper - it has perfect accuracy at all times (not sure if it requires level 2 or works with a level 1 M5, though), unlike the A280/DLT-20 whose scoped modes are still subject to movement penalties.

 

[vasya]

High risk high reward gameplay where you hit your shot or die.

more like hit your shot or\and dash

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Hero is in the weakest state it ever was as far as I can remember.
-Proj useless against sith
-Dodge useless in general(hex keeps telling me its good but i never see anyone using it and its just bad imo)
-heal is a joke
-dash every 4 seconds is meh. I think 3 secs would have been fine
-quickthrow is a sad joke (20 points for one quickthrow, which you can do just a little slower manually)
-less armor for same points as bh
-p3 costs less than e11 which forces me to use it in this build(running: proj,p3,ammo3,armor3,dash1,nade)
-proj is still very buggy(cant change weapon after reloading if you tap rmb too quickly, get stuck in scope sometimes)
-armor 2 gives you 45 armor which makes you as tanky as a 2 life et #balance


For BH nothing really changed other than proj being shit against jedi

Dodge used to be the reason why the low armour count on Hero was okay. They'd be able to evade all the incoming damage as long as they played their cards right and kept themselves aware of their surroundings enough to dodge incoming fire.

Now with Dodge being unreliable, you're stuck with very little survivability and very little health. The only safeguard is Dash, but it was already doing what Dodge is now also trying to do. So there's two overlapping talents.

I was all for making Dodge require skill to use as long as the skill ceiling and potential is raised, but it's not skill when it's a cointoss to use. You sometimes end up being too close, sometimes you don't have sufficient dodge points to dodge even though you're still in dodge mode... You're better off committing your energy into staying behind cover and acting as a backline sniper like always and spending those 15 points into Heal as it will give you some modicum of survivability to compensate for the weak armour you're given.

As for people saying proj is strong... Projectile Rifle isn't too strong. The maps are generally very sniper favored. Give Hero a Disruptor and you'll notice that it'll be the same. Instead of complaining about the snipers, it'd be best to look into map design solutions that make other styles of play more valid.

Less long corridors or open hangars without proper cover. Most importantly more flanking and avenues of attack are needed to keep the sniper guessing where the enemy is coming from instead of knowing precisely the corner where the enemy will be coming from. Snipers can fire one shot every 5 seconds. If two people could come through two or more doors at the same time, snipers would have less of an easy time.

TL;DR:
Bountyhunter is a nice and well-rounded class with tools to be a bruiser, a sniper, a jedihunter and even a mix of all three.
Heroes are squishy snipers with one escape ability. They can be played like snipers to get decent results in maps with long corridors and wide open spaces.

 

[TadekRaeod]

I would kinda like to see another weapon added in the category of "big cannon gun with very large projectile hitbox." Right now that description applies to P3 and T-21 primary. I dunno. I just think it would be fun to have something that's like the T-21 primary but EVEN MORESO, like, something on the caliber of a main gun on a tank. Like, sort of between a PLX and a blaster. Something that you have to charge up a little and then it fires a bigass, fast-moving projectile that hurts a bunch on a direct hit and also has an explosive radius that deals fairly low damage.

Relative to the PLX, it would require a longer period of stationary charging and deal less damage overall, but the projectile would move faster and be unpushable (cuz it's a blaster shot ultimately). And there'd be more ammo.

My argument for this just boils down to: i think it would fun We already have "extreme firepower" in terms of guns with very high shot speed, but not in terms of just extremely high-caliber big dick guns.

I think there was a weapon like this idea in JKO or JKA-oh yeah,something similiar to this ^ was the Concussion Rifle,if i'm not mistaken.
AKA the gun that shoots,as primary,a big fast projectile that can send you flying(emphasis on FLYING),and as secondary fire a big laser of doom.
Also,the(probably)primary reason many people don't play mb2_cmp_reactor xd

Bountyhunter is a nice and well-rounded class with tools to be a bruiser, a sniper, a jedihunter and even a mix of all three.
Heroes are squishy snipers with one escape ability. They can be played like snipers to get decent results in maps with long corridors and wide open spaces.

^ what i think.

 

[DaloLorn]

Also,the(probably)primary reason many people don't play mb2_cmp_reactor

Definitely.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

edit: silly suggestion

 

[Tempest]

It IS a shotgun.

That was a response to changing Proj to be designed as a shotgun instead of a sniper.

As I said, I think hardcapping the FP drains on it was the wrong way to go about trying to balance out Proj. I'm 100% fine with being able to blow up someone at close range. I'm not fine with being able to constantly poke/insta jump around a corner
and blow entire teams away with one of the few counterplay options being an extremely good disruptor user (which actually works exactly how being able to 1shot someone should be designed around) needing to be present.

Maybe the 2x damage while scoped and/or slowing movement speed while scoped would be the best start at addressing Proj's power (with uncapped damage/drains again). I could set that up fairly easily I think but it would just be a matter of getting proper testing with it to see if it's actually balanced.

 

[Gumba]

That was a response to changing Proj to be designed as a shotgun instead of a sniper.

As I said, I think hardcapping the FP drains on it was the wrong way to go about trying to balance out Proj. I'm 100% fine with being able to blow up someone at close range. I'm not fine with being able to constantly poke/insta jump around a corner
and blow entire teams away with one of the few counterplay options being an extremely good disruptor user (which actually works exactly how being able to 1shot someone should be designed around) needing to be present.

Maybe the 2x damage while scoped and/or slowing movement speed while scoped would be the best start at addressing Proj's power (with uncapped damage/drains again). I could set that up fairly easily I think but it would just be a matter of getting proper testing with it to see if it's actually balanced.

Not sure how bad the players on NA are but the best way to counter a proj is prefiring the corners hes gonne pop out from. Especially against heros this is very effective since they die so fast.
I love to play against heros for example because it is so incredibly easy to kill them when you know how they are gonna play.
And Proj is incredibly easy to dodge even without that useless skill

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

That was a response to changing Proj to be designed as a shotgun instead of a sniper.

As I said, I think hardcapping the FP drains on it was the wrong way to go about trying to balance out Proj. I'm 100% fine with being able to blow up someone at close range. I'm not fine with being able to constantly poke/insta jump around a corner
and blow entire teams away with one of the few counterplay options being an extremely good disruptor user (which actually works exactly how being able to 1shot someone should be designed around) needing to be present.

Maybe the 2x damage while scoped and/or slowing movement speed while scoped would be the best start at addressing Proj's power (with uncapped damage/drains again). I could set that up fairly easily I think but it would just be a matter of getting proper testing with it to see if it's actually balanced.

As gumba said, it's pretty simple to counter that by firing on the corner they're popping out from. Supressive fiyahhh!!!!
When the hero pops out to snipe he will definetly get hit and that will throw off his aim when scoped as well.

If you know a hero is there you can simply stafe around to dodge the incoming snipe if you anticipate it right.

 

[Tempest]

Well that is assuming you know the hero is already there and wanting to pop out to snipe. Even then, the moment there's a break in fire (there's a lot of variables in any number of scenarios obviously), they can do the stuff that's problematic. Gotta have a constant stream of suppressive fire and/or mix in your own sniper pressure to stop shenanigans.

Also just had a thought regarding jumping + scoping..what if you couldn't jump and scope to fire? Possibly mix that with the incoming damage increase/movement speed reduction and I think it would remove a lot of the unnecessary room for error sniping with Proj allows.

 

[Gumba]

Well that is assuming you know the hero is already there and wanting to pop out to snipe. Even then, the moment there's a break in fire (there's a lot of variables in any number of scenarios obviously), they can do the stuff that's problematic. Gotta have a constant stream of suppressive fire and/or mix in your own sniper pressure to stop shenanigans.

Also just had a thought regarding jumping + scoping..what if you couldn't jump and scope to fire? Possibly mix that with the incoming damage increase/movement speed reduction and I think it would remove a lot of the unnecessary room for error sniping with Proj allows.

I mean you are already really really slow while scoping and you can't shoot while in the air...

 

[Preston]

I would honestly just quit mb2 altogether if you took out pop sniping.

 

[Tempest]

I'm not trying to remove pop sniping itself. I'm trying to make it so there's consistent counterplay to it that isn't solely based on guessing or predicting when they're going to jump out (if possible without breaking it).