v1.5 increased projectile speeds: discussion

[Stassin]

Alright folks this is a pretty crucial subject for the mod's gameplay, and even though it seemed to receive mostly positive feedback during the previous open betas, hence its addition in v1.5, now the feedback appears to be quite divided on the subject with both very positive and very negative stances.

To reiterate, the projectile speeds have been increased by 15% across the board in the v1.5 release, with the exception of projectile rifle shots and clone blobs (and SBD blobs in FA).

 

[Lessen]

@Nex to address the point of the "shortage of good gunners" comment, it was that gunning isn't appealing enough to people. If gunning were in a totally healthy place for the last 15 years we'd have more people bothering to get good at gunner. It's an indirect argument but I don't think it's totally invalid. Basically the point of it is "I think we can get gunning to be so exciting that it draws more players to take it seriously."

Regarding the "this is a matter of taste more than logic," I think that's plain and indisputable, and I think you're a big goof for twisting that around into "I can't use logic." Gee, Nex!

regarding the skill of people-who-voted-yes, we've got... Mace, SeV, Wizzard, Achilles, me (I'm a good gunner lol), Kanigan, takuta, Torlo, Sad.... there's lots of good players there man. They're just NA so you don't know em. Mace, Torlo, takuta, Kanigan, and myself are easily some of the best gunners in NA from what I've seen.

 

[Starushka]

As other seasoned vets mentioned the projectile speed increase have broken the game. The balance shifted towards 'fat' classes. You can't dodge at close - mid range. You take damage. You either play passive and wait till you have advantage OR trade hp (whoever have more hp wins). Aiming is simplified so much so all guns feel like a hit scan at close-mid range.

New Meta:
Soldier class pretty much dead right now. ET is slightly better choise, mainly because of dodge. Snipers can freely shoot only when no one engaging them. Mando can't fly - a player with mediocre aim will land half of his shots. Wookiee is a best choice for rebels, hp pool + bowcaster 3 melts people. Other classes are still viable.

 

[Lessen]

Mando can't fly - a player with mediocre aim will land half of his shots

Hyperbo- er, I mean, is the average skill level in EU this much higher that being able to land half your shots on a flying mando is considered "mediocre aim," or are you exaggerating for effect. Also what range are we talking here, and what weapon We're probably picturing very different situations for where a Mando would be flying. Hovering around in a combat zone was already a bad idea, before... so I'm picturing that we're talking about a Mando jetting along at full speed, perpendicular to the shooter. Cuz that's how I use jetpack lol.

Also regarding the "balance shifted towards fat classes" point, I will say that in the previous patch I found hero/BH overly-annoying since it felt "overly impossible" to ever manage to deliberately hit them even at close ranges. With the effect of this shot speed change, class balance may need to be adjusted (especially Bowcaster, as I've acknowledged at least twice) but I think Hero/BH are appropriately "possible to hit" now, at least.

edit: but let me say, to both Nex and Starushka, that your arguments have awakened in me some curiosity about how much further I could have taken my "dodging" and "prediction" skills in the previous patch. So even if the shot speeds got reverted I would go along with some measure of eagerness, having something to work on.

edit2: Also, this is almost a tangent, but I sort of wish random spread weren't a thing, somehow. It would take some serious re-working of various blasters to design around random spread not being a thing. My biggest problem with slow shot speeds is that random spread becomes almost as viable as conscious aim.

 

[k4far]

Being a Gunner was awful and unrewarding to people with good aim, so they just left if they had no fun with sabering. "Uniqueness" is not good for gunners we were rewarding those who kept spraying like stupid and aiming left and right instead directly at the target. Gunning was side attraction for last 15 years? Yes, apparently. Great somebody bothered to try changing that and shifting this gay meta of EE-3/Project Rifle camp-stackers who are not that good players at all... Langerd's new project is pretty big Jakku like sized map and I think those speeds would be perfect for "normal maps". You are just obsessed with Dotf and Lunarbase and you find those maps too small now, and you are blindly blaming new speeds.

If you can't play with the change I have a bad news about your "skills" lol

 

[Manyo]

shifting this gay meta of EE-3/Project Rifle camp-stackers who are not that good players at all...

Why are you trying to blow up the main argument for the change so far? That's just ruthless.

 

[k4far]

Why are you trying to blow up the main argument for the change so far? That's just ruthless.

Your argument is ego. Nothing else so far.

 

[k4far]

If Jedi is telling you he likes dying faster just git gud really.

 

[Manyo]

Your argument is ego. Nothing else so far.

I disagree. Do you see the 5 dots in post #4? They are supposed to stand for different arguments i tried to bring to the table.
I don't claim everything i said there will matter @ 15% increase. Or that those arguments are even valid in the first place. But after 1 week of playing i still have the feeling they aren't just all bullshit theories.

 

[SeV]

As other seasoned vets mentioned the projectile speed increase have broken the game. The balance shifted towards 'fat' classes. You can't dodge at close - mid range. You take damage. You either play passive and wait till you have advantage OR trade hp (whoever have more hp wins). Aiming is simplified so much so all guns feel like a hit scan at close-mid range.

New Meta:
Soldier class pretty much dead right now. ET is slightly better choise, mainly because of dodge. Snipers can freely shoot only when no one engaging them. Mando can't fly - a player with mediocre aim will land half of his shots. Wookiee is a best choice for rebels, hp pool + bowcaster 3 melts people. Other classes are still viable.

It's a valid point, but also remember that teammates and cover exist. I was able to go like 21/1 which became like 36/5 purely as soldier on lunarbase. Part of that is cover and teammates plus fighting against a bunch of noob jedi which were free kills, but the purpose of soldier/commander is endurance in their reinforcements and utility with nades as team assisters. They are weaker thus require cover to live etc and I think that general idea makes sense. It is perhaps wookiee and other high HP/durable classes that are overtuned, but since they are single life we must mostly compare them to other single life classes. It's a matter of ironing out some balance issues, and you can't lay it all at the feet of increased speeds only.

It's also a very positive thing that long range fights feel more playable, so we're not always forced into guessing or using 'suppressive' fire whilst advancing closer. I killed a sniper with pistol 3 headshot from long range yesterday. I 1 hit a jedi on far end of falcon from control room DS. 1 primary e-11 in the back of the head and he's dead. That wouldn't have been possible without the increased projectile speeds, and you can't be telling me it takes less skill now due to this being possible.

 

[Manyo]

I 1 hit a jedi on far end of falcon from control room DS.

I agree that as non-sniping gunner it's more fun on long distance now. But the jedi probably isn't feeling too great about it. I can see a lot of saberists complaining about dying too fast now. Considering new players pick mostly saberists they'll be even more frustrated than before and leave more quickly.

 

[k4far]

I agree that as non-sniping gunner it's more fun on long distance now. But the jedi probably isn't feeling to great about it.

If Jedi is telling you he likes dying faster just git gud really.

 

[SeV]

I agree that as non-sniping gunner it's more fun on long distance now. But the jedi probably isn't feeling too great about it. I can see a lot of saberists complaining about dying too fast now. Considering new players pick mostly saberists they'll be even more frustrated than before and leave more quickly.

I am not sure about that. He was dueling a sith on falcon and would've gotten taken out by a proj in that scenario 10/10 so his experience as a noob was not being impacted poorly. I think sometimes it actually helps them understand better if they die faster. Ppl that run in a straight line vs a deka and get shit on realize quickly that they need to zigzag and dodge. In 1.4.9 standing still and just holding W wasn't punished as much as I think it should be tbh.

I was playing speed jedi and doing some rushes on different maps, and most of my team were noob jedi that died fast. They specced me and started imitating me and getting more kills, so I think that ppl can learn. We also can't forget that although jedi/sith die faster, they regen FP faster which means they have more free access to force powers + they can use obstacles to survive for a long time, so playing the map is important. Furthermore, they can also get kills on gunners quite quickly with the fast styles, or heavy styles, or even just base yellow. I don't really think it's the projectile speeds or jedi/sith dying fast that will scare ppl away, but more invisible or hard to grasp mechanics like ACM and in gunner cases perhaps flinch. But atleast you can quickly understand that you flinch if you get hit while swinging, then incorporate dodges into your swings etc.

 

[k4far]

Manyo if your only concern is us Jedi/Sith then stop making weird points in this thread if you are happy as a Gunner because only good Jedi/Sith can play now and that was one of the reasons for this change to take the place... New speeds feel good and you are just undermining it for god knows what reason.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Being a Gunner was awful and unrewarding to people with good aim, so they just left if they had no fun with sabering. "Uniqueness" is not good for gunners we were rewarding those who kept spraying like stupid and aiming left and right instead directly at the target. Gunning was side attraction for last 15 years? Yes, apparently. Great somebody bothered to try changing that and shifting this gay meta of EE-3/Project Rifle camp-stackers who are not that good players at all... Langerd's new project is pretty big Jakku like sized map and I think those speeds would be perfect for "normal maps". You are just obsessed with Dotf and Lunarbase and you find those maps too small now, and you are blindly blaming new speeds.

If you can't play with the change I have a bad news about your "skills" lol

And yet there are people who could consistently hit their targets at almost any range. No one's asking to change the saber system simply because newbies can't to grips with it instantly and gunnery works the same way. It takes some time and dedication to get everything down to be an effective gunner at higher levels of play. I won't deny that snipers are broken as shit in MB2 though but regular guns worked fine prior to this update.

The speeds are excessive as far as regular gun play goes, trading hits is now the name of the game rather than evading hits and returning fire more accurately than your opponent, so I'm not surprised that those "skills" are now less prevalent considering that the difference between a skill ceiling gunner and a skill floor gunner is a lot closer now, one will just hug cover more.

Manyo if your only concern is us Jedi/Sith then stop making weird points in this thread if you are happy as a Gunner because only good Jedi/Sith can play now and that was one of the reasons for this change to take the place... New speeds feel good and you are just undermining it for god knows what reason.

Let's be real, why are you even posting in this thread if your posts are all going to be this snarky rubbish?

The purpose of the thread is to debate whether the impact of that 15% boost is good or not and yet you're set in your ways on every front giving your opinion as if it was fact, I mean by all means share your opinion but be open to others' opinions in relation to the change, don't just try and shut 'em down or ask them to stop posting.

The thread is not about gunner vs gunner but rather the implications of the projectile speed boost as a whole.

 

[k4far]

I find your posts snarky rubbish.

You keep saying how the change is bad but Manyo when he ran out of arguments ended up saying LET'S THINK ABOUT THE JEDI, the hell. If thats the reason for you to vote NO in this poll then stop making fun out of yourselves already. It's purely about your ego because this change benefits the game and camping became less common/effective with new bullet speeds. Mere pistol can counter and rekt you hard if you just stand in the open and try to snipe with M5 or EE-3 and that's a positive change you can't change my mind on that.

 

[Crusader]

Manyo if your only concern is us Jedi/Sith then stop making weird points in this thread if you are happy as a Gunner because only good Jedi/Sith can play now and that was one of the reasons for this change to take the place... New speeds feel good and you are just undermining it for god knows what reason.

Thick as two short planks.

It is almost as if Manyo very explicitly pointed out his concerns by referencing the number of them, and what post number they lay under. It is not fun, nor is it good practice to misrepresent people or their ideas. He even tried to caution you on that, as non-confrontational as can be, when you started pouring out some drivel about EE3 and projectile rifle.

By the way, Starushka (against velocity increase) mentions this forces more passive gameplay and SeV (for velocity increase) suggests for soldier to be viable it needs to be using cover more frequently/effectively. Now I don't know how you want to define camping, but camping certainly isn't aggressive play out in the open. So 'camping' could include elements of passive play and could include the use of frequent/effective cover. I am not going to misrepresent SeV like you do with Manyo, so I will let @SeV have the final word on what he actually meant. So here is a provisional statement, pending on the clarification from SeV: members from both sides of the argument seem to suggest 'camping' (defined as: not aggressive play, not being in the open) will be both more beneficial and common. That is a complete contrast to what you are saying the changes will entail, k4.

 

[SeV]

Thick as two short planks.

It is almost as if Manyo very explicitly pointed out his concerns by referencing the number of them, and what post number they lay under. It is not fun, nor is it good practice to misrepresent people or their ideas. He even tried to caution you on that, as non-confrontational as can be, when you started pouring out some drivel about EE3 and projectile rifle.

By the way, Starushka (against velocity increase) mentions this forces more passive gameplay and SeV (for velocity increase) suggests for soldier to be viable it needs to be using cover more frequently/effectively. Now I don't know how you want to define camping, but camping certainly isn't aggressive play out in the open. So 'camping' could include elements of passive play and could include the use of frequent/effective cover. I am not going to misrepresent SeV like you do with Manyo, so I will let @SeV have the final word on what he actually meant. So here is a provisional statement, pending on the clarification from SeV: members from both sides of the argument seem to suggest 'camping' (defined as: not aggressive play, not being in the open) will be both more beneficial and common. That is a complete contrast to what you are saying the changes will entail, k4.

I think cover and positioning should matter, and being caught in the open fighting vs a guy in cover means you should be at a disadvantage. My point was not addressing the passive gameplay directly, rather I was talking specifically about soldier/commander gameplay because they are squishier than say a wook or SBD, so you have to rely on cover and smarts and teamplay more.

By the way, I think having higher projectile speeds also helps those that play aggressively, because if you're pushing you're trying to kill opponents. Slower projectiles means you're playing more of the dodging game than the aiming game, and when you're dodge gun-fighting you're not really moving forward. Imagine now a hero with pistol 3 and dodge running forward aggressively and aiming well, taking out soldiers and commanders with aggressive aim while being supported by a jedi. I think that gameplay-style is more possible/viable in 1.5 due to the projectile speeds than it was in previous versions, although it was also possible previously it was less effective.

So I guess what I'm saying is that increased projectile speeds does not necessarily mean that passive gameplay is rewarded over aggression. In CSGO you pretty much have hitscan, and yet aggressive pushes can be extremely powerful. If an increase in projectile speed means that passive gameplay is rewarded more, then surely a hitscan game like csgo would have ppl camping the entire time, and yet that's not how things go down because the projectile speed works both ways.

I almost think that it rewards aggression slightly more than passive play because 'suppressive fire' spam was effective in 1.4.9 and still is in 1.5, but now it's easier to quickly pop out and aim to get a kill when there's a gap.

 

[Jango32]

I've been playing as a gunner (clone and mando) alongside with Sith for quite a while now. I personally haven't noticed any real difference in terms of impact on the gunplay in 1.5. Gunners can still dodge as they did in previous versions when close to another gunner. The return of the godcaster was not a pleasant experience though.

 

[Cat]

The shortest distance at which it's possible to manually dodge blasterfire is now almost twice as long as it was before. Which, in my opinion, takes a lot more getting used to than new deflections, especially considering the next point no one has brought up yet: the cones of fire remain the same, which means fewer DPS on the new, longer safe distance. This influences different gun-vs-gun matchups and burst/spray significantly.

I don't think it's possible to say if the impact of that 15% boost is good or not now. Perhaps, in a week or few more people will be able to anticipate how much will they be forced to trade health in engagement correctly and will engage accordingly, but now the majority of gun wielding population of servers just dies of closing in too much. My two cents in would be that we'd better wait and learn to play the new version before making any descisions.


>I personally haven't noticed any real difference in terms of impact on the gunplay in 1.5
Are you sure you are playing 1.5?

 

[Stassin]

Obviously, it is still too early for opinions to be properly settled and to make any decisions, but as Ben already said an interesting compromise could be to keep the increased speed for some guns (low ROF guns) and revert it for others (high ROF guns).