v1.5 increased projectile speeds: discussion

Stassin

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Alright folks this is a pretty crucial subject for the mod's gameplay, and even though it seemed to receive mostly positive feedback during the previous open betas, hence its addition in v1.5, now the feedback appears to be quite divided on the subject with both very positive and very negative stances.

To reiterate, the projectile speeds have been increased by 15% across the board in the v1.5 release, with the exception of projectile rifle shots and clone blobs (and SBD blobs in FA).
 
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BTW @ez.HTD in case deka gets discharge by default is it fine for PM to no longer be used via altattack but instead special 2 ? since PM mode toggle is currently both on special 2 and on toggletriple3, it would then only be on toggletriple3 which is just fine. yes ?

It should be fine yes.
 
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Everyone's either complaining or complimenting the change and here I am unable to even tell the difference.
I think most of the drama comes from one side wanting the game to stay as it was, while a few on the other side imply more drastic changes than 15%. Hard to make any side happy in case of a compromise.
 
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From what it looks like, the reasons to keep the gunning change (Or go to 30% like I suggested which is the best testing result and maximum increase possible before reflective glass breaks) are due to positive mechanical changes that simply improve the gunplay and feel of the game. Whereas the 'reasons' for removing said change are balance related. Balance can be changed easily. Who in their right mind would ever sacrifice superior gun mechanics for something as easily tweaked as class/weapon balance?

This entire discussion is nonsense.

What? No-no-no.
People, who are playing this game for the long time telling you that increasing speed of shots actually killing superior gun mechanics.
People are saying something like: they cannot adapt, that's why they whine.
It's not true at all. Every good mb2 player had good aim. But there was another factor: unique aim system, which enables you the ability to dodge blasters and actually aim on preemption. Now role of the aim increased (and became so much easier at the same time), but influence of the another factors strongly decreased.
Certainly it made gunnering so much easier. And that's why all so happy.
But if I may: what's more easier to do? To juggle with 2 balls or with the 3 balls? Of course with 2 balls. But with 2 balls it isn't really juggling at all.
The bottom of line, with the increasing speed you are killing unique mechanic. That's what all this thread is about, mate.

You say it makes gun vs saber experience better. Yes, in 1 vs 1 it does. But it's not the only way and certainly not the best way to do it.
 

Nex

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Infraction: Flaming
Who are u calling fake u EU cuck.
Dude there fucking NA players too.
Stop living under a rock.

Shush Yankee/k4. Your constructive input with this post is lower than zero. People that play this game for less than 1 month shouldn't be even allowed to say anything in this thread. Assuming you're not k4 fake (which I think you are) this is beyond pathetic. Noobs like you just influenced tweaking one game-breaking idea already discussed in this thread, I'm scared what's gonna be next. I know the game is for everybody but I can't imagine a situation when an amateur has a substantial voice in a matter of system that worked for 10+ years. It's almost as if some random invidual with minimal knowledge on the subject would be advising how nuclear reactor should work and the executives took him seriously. For some reason that's the case for mb2 development process.

Everyone's either complaining or complimenting the change and here I am unable to even tell the difference.

Sadly for you, most ppl do see the difference. You may be able to notice it too once you play for longer than few days.

I think most of the drama comes from one side wanting the game to stay as it was, while a few on the other side imply more drastic changes than 15%. Hard to make any side happy in case of a compromise.

Again, nothing is hard and no compromises would be necessery if devs just didn't touch things that needed no change. Listening to 12 y/o kids feedback always ends up in drama. There was no issue with projectile speed untill one dev decided to change it.
 

k4far

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People that play this game for less than 1 month shouldn't be even allowed to say anything in this thread.

Your statement would lose you a lot of votes for your cause. People who voted NO right now are just familiar with mechanics but weren't tops of scoreboard except for like 5 people out of all 24. Not that I have seen, on contrary people who voted YES top scoreboard in every build on many maps.

I honestly do not want to go for a compromise here and let me tell you why. Those who voted NO aren't even close to half of us. And going for middle ground can be even worse and will solve nothing. Do we make a middle ground out of 1.4.9 sabering and what we have now because there are some whiners? No. Don't do it here either. The majority decides things that's the point of every vote unless stated otherwise prior to the vote.

Majority of good players wants to keep new speeds, respect democratic vote.
 

{Δ} Achilles

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What? No-no-no.
People, who are playing this game for the long time telling you that increasing speed of shots actually killing superior gun mechanics.
People are saying something like: they cannot adapt, that's why they whine.

They are whining either as a result of ignorance or finding themselves being killed by people that actually have better aim.

It's not true at all. Every good mb2 player had good aim. But there was another factor: unique aim system, which enables you the ability to dodge blasters and actually aim on preemption. Now role of the aim increased (and became so much easier at the same time), but influence of the another factors strongly decreased.

I've known MB2 players who do not have good aim at all, but are extremely skilled gunners. That isn't a unique aim system, and stop throwing around the word 'unqiue'. Slow projectiles and fast movement is not unique at all.

I played fighting games professionally, I fought the best players of many genres of games from FPS to Fighters to Melee Games. Prediction is not a skill, it is an educated guess. In almost every game where you are fighting people in a professional setting and prediction is a factor, you have the ability to train opponents to respond to things. You are forcing your will onto them by making them adapt to a series of patterns that you perform. That is not the case in a chaotic environment like MB2 open mode, with as many factors as there are. Prediction is only accurate in sabering due to how long it can last, how deep it is, and how responsive it is.

Certainly it made gunnering so much easier. And that's why all so happy.

No, it did not make gunning much easier, it made it more reliable. There is a difference between having to lead someone at 5 feet and being able to aim directly at them at 5 feet. One is guessing, the other is not.

But if I may: what's more easier to do? To juggle with 2 balls or with the 3 balls? Of course with 2 balls. But with 2 balls it isn't really juggling at all.
The bottom of line, with the increasing speed you are killing unique mechanic. That's what all this thread is about, mate.

That is an imbecilic comparison. You aren't removing mechanics, prediction never was a mechanic. The excessive amounts of guessing were due to a LACK of mechanics. Instead of hitting a bird with a nerf dart, you're now hitting them with a pellet gun. It's still extremely difficult, only now it isn't as incredibly luck based.

You say it makes gun vs saber experience better. Yes, in 1 vs 1 it does. But it's not the only way and certainly not the best way to do it.

All it does is make it so that you don't have to lead as much, which pushes back the range at which a Jedi can dance around with A/D and be incredibly difficult to lead. It is demonstrably fine, and this paranoid delusion that putting projectile speeds to 30% MAXIMUM is going to some how destroy skill or what makes MB2 'unique' is absolutely stupid. Even if you put projectile speeds to a whopping 60% increase, which is twice as much as I ever tested or wanted, you would still be no where near hitscan, and you would still require 'skillful' leading of targets at further distances.

Now if any of you people still think slower projectile speeds = more skill, I double dare you to make a video if you consistently hitting smart Jedi at various distances as they unpredictably strafe, so I can laugh at how inaccurate your 'amazing aim' is. NO ONE in this game, or any other game, can consistently hit an unpredictably strafing Jedi in MB2. You will miss the majority of your shots, period.
 
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Learn to pick proper words, when you are in discussion. You are giving Nex the infraction and you throwing insulting words in your message in 30 minutes time span.
This is a unique game with a unique system. And this is my unique opinion. So make a unique effort and accept it.
You are saying something about playing with the best players in fighting games... Okay, good for you. Very relevant.
Again, all you do is throwing some words and trying to suppress by authority. Which is weird, because I took part in every mb2 tournament for last like 10 years and I never saw you there. And there was the best mb2 players.
And if you doesn't see how gunnering becomes so much easier now... I am confused to say the least. You wanna call it reliable, but it's just a demagogic.
 

{Δ} Achilles

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Learn to pick proper words, when you are in discussion. You are giving Nex the infraction and you throwing insulting words in your message in 30 minutes time span.
This is a unique game with a unique system. And this is my unique opinion. So make a unique effort and accept it.
You are saying something about playing with the best players in fighting games... Okay, good for you. Very relevant.
Again, all you do is throwing some words and trying to suppress by authority. Which is weird, because I took part in every mb2 tournament for last like 10 years and I never saw you there. And there was the best mb2 players.
And if you doesn't see how gunnering becomes so much easier now... I am confused to say the least. You wanna call it reliable, but it's just a demagogic.

Go take a real fire arm. Try to hit a moving target at 1,000 meters. Now imagine if that moving target can change directions randomly.

You now have a less-luck based version of MB2 gunning. Physics are important, and 'guessing' isn't a skill.
 

Nex

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The double standards by moderators on these forums are unreal. Now I know why ppl call mb2 devs abusers. I get called "EU cuck" and I'm the one to get warning. Rofl. Gj devs. Keep going. Don't forget to ban a few critics on discord as well today. This is a complete circus with clownish trolls like k4 in it.
Not to mention Achilles is insulting literally everyone he replies to as if he had some ocd. This is a joke.
 
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I've known MB2 players who do not have good aim at all, but are extremely skilled gunners.

This is a contradiction to your opinion about guessing. If gunners without good aim differentiate themselves from other gunners without good aim they must have been doing something the other group of people couldn't do. That's the very definition of skill as your inclusion of the word "skilled" also shows.

It's perfectly fine to be in favour of more aiming and less guessing, but you wont change anyone's mind by trying to devalue guessing as a viable part of any game while contradicting yourself doing so. This just unnecessarily blows up the thread with very little substance.

There are more important things you can talk about. For example @ez.HTD agreed in another thread that deka when rolling is indeed nerfed due to higher bullet speeds.
What are your balance proposals to adjust for this fact?
The easy solution of increasing how many hits a rolling deka can take is not a good solution for different team sizes.

@mods: im all for drawing the line somewhere, but i don't think this one was straight enough to be reasonable.
 
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No idea if this was mentioned but what's wrong with increasing projectile speeds for each weapon individually? An blanket increase in projectile speeds might help to even the ground in saber Vs gunner gameplay but it also just buffs certain classes and weapons that are already ridiculous enough (i.e. bowcaster)
 
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For example @ez.HTD agreed in another thread that deka when rolling is indeed nerfed due to higher bullet speeds.
Fuck deka lol. It's a broken class and until it gets a rework, I'd rather have it underpowered than overpowered.


Having played some more 1.5, I gotta say gunning feels good. This change is pretty subtle, so core gunplay is pretty much the same, but it does feel a little better because of the higher shot speeds. Less shooting around the target and more shooting at the target. People who say that certain playstyles got destroyed are blowing this totally out of proportion. Some things are a bit easier now, and some are a bit harder, but it's essentially the same.

Now, here are a few things that probably should be looked at, because they do stick out:
- Caster 3 - was powerful before, and very powerful now. Might need a nerf.
- Pistol 3 - its shots were fast before, and now they are even faster. Might need a nerf.
- EE-3 sniper mode and M5 sniper mode - as sniper weapons, I don't think they need even higher shot speeds. Might need a nerf.
- Purple stab - broken as hell, might need to be removed completely.

Aside from these things, the gameplay feels alright.
 

k4far

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Nex stop with personal attacks it's not funny!! : (

Gunning is still far from enjoyable on maps like Dotf. Keep +15% speeds and for balancing make certain weapons whole +30%.
 

{Δ} Achilles

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This is a contradiction to your opinion about guessing. If gunners without good aim differentiate themselves from other gunners without good aim they must have been doing something the other group of people couldn't do. That's the very definition of skill as your inclusion of the word "skilled" also shows.

Incorrect. I never said MB2 gunning was skill-less, just that aim doesn't matter enough. There are extremely skilled gunners that have no real aim, and that is because they know the game extremely well, know when to peek, know what tools to use and when, know how to use footwork, and know how to outplay others. There is no question that someone who has played MB2 for 10 years will outshine someone who has been playing for 0 in gunning. HOWEVER, trying to hit an unpredictably strafing target is guesswork.

It's perfectly fine to be in favour of more aiming and less guessing, but you wont change anyone's mind by trying to devalue guessing as a viable part of any game while contradicting yourself doing so. This just unnecessarily blows up the thread with very little substance.

Guessing isn't viable in any game. Prediction only works in areas where you can train opponents to react to things, or have enough time to identify solid patterns. Which requires a very complex system, which does not exist in MB2 gunning.

There are more important things you can talk about. For example @ez.HTD agreed in another thread that deka when rolling is indeed nerfed due to higher bullet speeds.
What are your balance proposals to adjust for this fact?

Deka is in need of a rework along with SBD and Clone anyway. I have already put forward my proposals on these forums in the form of my Manifesto/Compendium.

The easy solution of increasing how many hits a rolling deka can take is not a good solution for different team sizes.

That is a horrible solution. Deka should be vulnerable while rolling.
 
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"I never said" is never a good idea to write when you tend to write so much.

But anyway, i think i don't have anything left to add to the discussion for now.
 
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Just got to this thread, probably missed a bunch of stuff. I would personally vote for only a 5 percent increase rather than 15 percent. Part of what makes it MBII is the shot prediction, I find blaster bolts staying out longer also makes suppressive fire more useful, and makes you feel more badass when firing and dodging shots. It's so cool watching your shots go down a corridor, now it just feels too quick.

I don't want MBII to become too much like a generic shooter, the speeds were already increased before, they don't need anymore.

If they go too fast slower classes won't have any hope of dodging at all, and speedy classes will be super hard to hit.
 
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