Thoughts regarding movement

[Tempest]

I seem to be running into discussions/suggestions regarding player movement more and more so I've decided to create a thread solely dedicated to it. Given that there's basically been no variation from base movement aside from class-specific modifiers and class specials that affect either the speed of the player or involve some kind of displacement (Dash/Rolls/Wook rage/barge mainly), I think that it's been one of the more subtle parts of MB2 and gone unexamined.

That said, the most consistently observed/mentioned issues arise from a similar source: Strafing. Whether it's the speeds of Jedi/Sith making it nearly unrealistic/unreliable to accurately hit them, dueling and having someone being able to zig-zag at max speeds in any direction at any given time, or some classes simply being at a massive disadvantage compared to others because they're slower by a large enough margin that they can't avoid shots while the others they're they're spray n' praying at the ones they're duking it out with and hoping they land the shots (because the enemy can stafe back and forth fast enough that you basically have to hope you'll hit them). That's not to say there's no skill in the maneuvering/gunning/whatever by default but anyone that says that there's no element of the above consistently present probably hasn't been paying much attention, IMO.

I'm not proposing to make every class the same speed or reduce strafe speeds to snail-pace or anything like that. I'm mostly just curious about the thoughts of the community, whether regarding what I mentioned above or anything related and suggestions they have for addressing them (assuming they see/find any problems with what I've said or other things that get brought up). I do also know that a lot of what I've described relates to what gives MB2 a lot of its addictive flavor and I don't want to take away from what makes it entertaining at its core if it's avoidable. Will be interesting to see where things go with this in any case.

 

[Lessen]

Just gonna chip in with some feelings and nothing really useful.

@Achilles, first off, your name is basically impossible to @. If that's intentional, then, gg wp. Secondly, I understand your point and appreciate your frustration over the weak counterarguments some people are making (like posting examples with a lot of momentum when you're talking about being able to instantly change moment.)

But I continue to disagree with your actual conclusion that this kind of impossibly difficult "guesswork" amounts to "it's all just luck." I think really good gunners get very good at locking on to people's patterns, subconsciously. Plus I like the fact that the skill ceiling can't actually be reached. If it was possible to get good enough at gunner that you could "aim perfectly," it would make teamwork even less necessary, and make the game even less accessible. I don't mind the "luck," which I see more as "impossibility."

But I do think that slowed strafing speeds should be tested. They shouldn't be slowed so much that the "guesswork" becomes wholly unnecessary, but I wouldn't mind seeing it nerfed so the guess game is... more forgiving. Plus, making forward motion the only full speed motion would change the flow of cover tactics a little by forcing people to choose to a degree between evasion and firing.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Just gonna chip in with some feelings and nothing really useful.

@Achilles, first off, your name is basically impossible to @. If that's intentional, then, gg wp. Secondly, I understand your point and appreciate your frustration over the weak counterarguments some people are making (like posting examples with a lot of momentum when you're talking about being able to instantly change moment.)

But I continue to disagree with your actual conclusion that this kind of impossibly difficult "guesswork" amounts to "it's all just luck." I think really good gunners get very good at locking on to people's patterns, subconsciously. Plus I like the fact that the skill ceiling can't actually be reached. If it was possible to get good enough at gunner that you could "aim perfectly," it would make teamwork even less necessary, and make the game even less accessible. I don't mind the "luck," which I see more as "impossibility."

But I do think that slowed strafing speeds should be tested. They shouldn't be slowed so much that the "guesswork" becomes wholly unnecessary, but I wouldn't mind seeing it nerfed so the guess game is... more forgiving. Plus, making forward motion the only full speed motion would change the flow of cover tactics a little by forcing people to choose to a degree between evasion and firing.

If you don't believe me, but are willing to find out, I'll be glad to show you why I came to my conclusion in-game.

I actually would like to test a lot more than just slowed strafe speeds, like an idea I had for slower movement speed when firing a weapon. Of course I'd have to see what effects changing all of the projectile speeds would have.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

This is just as bad as having euros in charge of mb.

Oh wait.

Fuck.

 

[Sammy]

If we're all going to spam Latin phrases, then this has been debated ad nauseam. If you're going to argue something you want done, you should at least be respectful trying to get your point across.

I myself see that there is luck involved, yes, but not as much as you portray there to be. Much of the MB2 gun fighting is related to skill. Experienced gunners are able to defeat not-so-experienced gunners on a regular basis; this is not surprising.

I don't understand your reasoning behind insulting others to get a point across. Just use your words, but in a respectful manner. That's my two cents.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I have played Arena shooters, they are either hitscan which removes most of the element of luck, or they have enormous AoE projectiles, which removes most of the element of luck. The people you showed in the video were not affected by luck, because their targets followed consistent trajectories through the phenomenon known as 'gravity', shocker I know.

Even JKA isn't that way, do you see the charge shot shots in the video? Jesus man you are condescending.

I don't believe 6-7 people on the forum disagreeing with me counts as 'everyone'.

I haven't noticed a single person in this thread agree with you in several pages. If you want to use that definition of everyone then it is literally impossible because that would include everyone on the planet. Want to talk about moot points? There is one.

Now here's a fun little game for you to play, spot the fact within your statement here, because I haven't found one that relates to the subject. What I see is someone that has brought forward a non-sequitur, followed by a populum fallacy, and then trailed by an ad-hominem. Magnificent.

Where everyone is a quantum scientist... • /r/iamverysmart

FALLACY FALLACY. I will keep saying it to you until you understand what the hell it even means. Clearly you do not.

Also you clearly don't even understand what ad-hominem is... either. Just because someone is making an argument against you because you are saying others facts are invalid because you seem to think yours is the only one right. I'm not attacking your "person" there I am attacking your logical reasoning. I am attacking your own god damn argument and you throw ad-hominem back like a child. I am calling your position biased, blinded, ignorant, arrogant.

This is why I keep having to state fallacy fallacy, because you cannot even see the argument behind what someone is saying and you just throw logical fallacy statements at them because you're offended. If I started calling you a cuntbag who has sex with children, that would be ad-hominem. What I said was far from it.

 

[andrew]

the most fun part of games for me is almost always the basic movement

people like to jump around and go fast

if a problem could be solved by either slowing players down, or making weapons more accurate, wouldn't it be a lot more fun to go with the thing that doesnt make you feel like you're running in mud?

i think everyone can agree they have a lot more fun in games when the movement is really solid, and you tend to sacrifice more fun movement the more realistic you want your game to be. mb2 sits at a pretty solid intersection for gameplay considerations/fun movement tradeoffs.

then again, i also dont think weapons should be fully accurate while running, so even if achilles were to shift his argument to something i find more agreeable id still probably not be in favor of it at all.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Mind you, haven't played for weeks and even then its been rare these last few months, been busy, but....

Less than 30 minutes ago.

Round 1.

8 kills.

Round 2.

Some cracker accuses me of aimbots.

Round 3.

Many fucks to be had.

Round 4.

Dey got me.

FUCKING LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Now, I used the slowest class where strafing, on my part, is damn straight useless to anyone with a mulligan of golf smarts.

All I had, then, was a gun, POINT AND LICK MOTHERFUCKERS


Beware Users that use Ad Homo's as defense/offense.

That is all.

Chaos out.
Until next time.


Which is....

Meh. Surprise myself.

 

[eksha]

Please don't try to make my MB2 into a shitty CS clone with slow-ass movement. If anything could be improved, the weapon damage and spread should be toned down to make it less random or "luck-based" as you call it, but don't even think about nerfing movement. Being able to change your direction fast is the only way to dodge incoming projectiles or even saberists for that matter.

Take a look at this video to understand what I mean by dodge. Not an example from MB2 or even JKA tho.

It's all just luck, right?

 

[Lessen]

@Chaos the Chaotic "Just luck" eheheahheheheahehae. I like in-jokes that are so "in" that only you get them.

Also while I agree with your point and the overall validity of your example, Soldier isn't a great class to show off being able to get a good K/D, because if your team is already winning then you can just play super cautious on your last life to avoid "death."

@Achilles I'm absolutely against any projectile speed increases. The bullet hell experience of relatively slow projectiles is a very unique very fun aspect of MB2, especially since at long ranges (like in dotf main) they're slow enough that you CAN actually actively see and avoid incoming shots. The fact that it's very difficult to outright force someone to die at long range is very valuable to me.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Playing soldier super-cautious?

What?

It's like you're from another world.

You walk up to a jedi and blast them in the face, back and forth.
My playstyle is hyper-aggressive lol.

Hell, back when I was still interested or could still duel, I liked setting myself on fire to see if I could outfight someone before my health vanished

Also, thats barely 4 rounds. You really want to see how high I can go. Playing safe?

edit;

And team was losing when I joined??

Is it me or are you just failing in all your points and missing what I was illustrating
It's ok.

I know genius is underappreciated.

 

[Lessen]

Sure, since you have lives to spare. I'm just saying that if you're playing Soldier while trying to prove a point about how good gunners get good K/Ds, it would be very tempting to play cautious on your last life to stack your K/D.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

The point was about aim and strafe?

Must have been drinking too much...

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

@Chaos the Chaotic "Just luck" eheheahheheheahehae. I like in-jokes that are so "in" that only you get them.

Also while I agree with your point and the overall validity of your example, Soldier isn't a great class to show off being able to get a good K/D, because if your team is already winning then you can just play super cautious on your last life to avoid "death."

@Achilles I'm absolutely against any projectile speed increases. The bullet hell experience of relatively slow projectiles is a very unique very fun aspect of MB2, especially since at long ranges (like in dotf main) they're slow enough that you CAN actually actively see and avoid incoming shots. The fact that it's very difficult to outright force someone to die at long range is very valuable to me.

You cannot see or avoid incoming shots on reaction. It is physically impossible, and I can demonstrate this in-game. You're basically making a guess on where they might be aiming, and they are making a guess on where you'll be running.




As for the screenshots, I have done just as well, and still chalked most of it up to better handling of strategies/gimmicks over my opponents, but the gun play, when I get into a hall-way strafing match with someone, is 80-90% luck.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

You're an idiot.

Who the hell let you in beta?

 

[MaceMadunusus]

You're an idiot.

Who the hell let you in beta?

I can follow your logic better than I can his. The entire last sentence just doesn't make any sense. By that alone makes it a "gut feeling" rather than the "fact" hes been spewing this entire time.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

You're an idiot.

Who the hell let you in beta?

I grow tired of you. Find me the best gunner in the game, and I'll demonstrate my point.

 

[Lessen]

Achilles x Chaos grudge match when

pistols at dawn!...!!!

 

[andrew]

I grow tired of you. Find me the best gunner in the game, and I'll demonstrate my point.

i remember when you first started playing, and i went ingame with you to prove a point too

cx

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I recall thinking about making a long-winded post here with links to some strafe fights I have recorded in my frag vids and shit. Maybe I forgot to click "Post".

Anyway I'd like to sum up some thoughts I had there:

MB2 isn't just about aim. It's about positioning and gunfire timinging. If you want to win a strafe fight, get as close as you can. This will reduce bullet travel times and make you an imposing presence to the enemy. Any friends of your enemy will have a harder time shooting at you without dealing damage to your main target as well due to your proximity.

Once you've got your movement nailed down, there's still a matter of understanding how players react to your movement and applying this to enhance your prediction of the target's movements.

Run straight at the enemy, but slightly veering off to the left will generally trigger a natural reaction from the opponent to move in the opposite direction. This gives you a good hunch on where your target will be next. Of course the better players know how to mix this up and confuse your aim.

Either way, I think it's safe to say mainly Achilles is of the opinion that we need to move away from an arcadey movement scheme. I get why that would be cool, but I think many modern shooters already feature this and the fact that MB2 doesn't makes it stand out and always fun to come back to after playing those restrictive realistic shooters.

 

[SeV]

I'd just like to chip in and say that I've always been a massive fan of games like Unreal tournament and Quake, where movement was a large part of skill. But as Ben rightfully pointed out, it's not just movement we're dealing with but movement prediction aswell. On a related note, in MB2 RDFA jumping is fun as hell for me for the same reason. Performing skillful movement is fun and I don't think taking away this movement will result in the desired effect.

I remember the first time I saw a really skilled jedi fighting vs gunners in B17. I think it was VVerewolf or some such with his pink lightsaber and Ki adi Mundi skin taking on 3 gunners by himself on korriban and just not dying. He was crouching and dodging around and that had a big impact on me, because before then, all the jedi that I had seen did not manually dodge blaster fire like he did and they were way easier to hit that him. Now what if he was unable to dodge blaster fire by crouching and strafing around their prediction shots and throwing off their aim? There would be very little distinguishing him from the other noobish jedis that I had seen up until I specced him. Not talking about dueling right now, but jedi vs gunner (and gunner vs gunner where the same principles apply), though even in dueling you can clearly see someone who was good at movement vs someone who was not. In the older builds without Aimed PB, movement and dodging played a more vital role in dueling, but movement and movement prediction is still important even for dueling, to say nothing of a game like MB2 which is sort of similar to quake and unreal in the way it does shooting (slower projectiles, prediction). But even if everything was hitscan, there would still have to be prediction. It is so in high level Counterstrike aswell, where pre-aiming the right spots as you move around the map makes a huge difference.

So in a game like the classic Pong arcade thing where you move a line up and down to deflect a ball, there is also an element of luck involved in predicting where the ball will go at higher speeds. But its not just luck, it's positioning and previous experience and reaction times aswell. When you express a desire to remove luck from MBII in this way, what you're really doing is saying that since in Pong you can't be 100 percent perfect because you're not a machine, you'd rather remove the challenging aspect of the game and just have the line that reflects the ball be still all the time. Which would certainly result in a predictable, entirely devoid of luck environment. However, there wouldn't be any variation either... it would just be a ball being deflected back and forth in the same pattern over and over again. There is little meaning in that I think, and it seems that is what you want to happen to MBII. Even if the degree to which it is implemented is less extreme than in my above example, the comparison seems rather apt since there is a vast ocean of skill hidden in movement, movement prediction and reading the opponent in games such as this.