Thoughts regarding movement

[Tempest]

I seem to be running into discussions/suggestions regarding player movement more and more so I've decided to create a thread solely dedicated to it. Given that there's basically been no variation from base movement aside from class-specific modifiers and class specials that affect either the speed of the player or involve some kind of displacement (Dash/Rolls/Wook rage/barge mainly), I think that it's been one of the more subtle parts of MB2 and gone unexamined.

That said, the most consistently observed/mentioned issues arise from a similar source: Strafing. Whether it's the speeds of Jedi/Sith making it nearly unrealistic/unreliable to accurately hit them, dueling and having someone being able to zig-zag at max speeds in any direction at any given time, or some classes simply being at a massive disadvantage compared to others because they're slower by a large enough margin that they can't avoid shots while the others they're they're spray n' praying at the ones they're duking it out with and hoping they land the shots (because the enemy can stafe back and forth fast enough that you basically have to hope you'll hit them). That's not to say there's no skill in the maneuvering/gunning/whatever by default but anyone that says that there's no element of the above consistently present probably hasn't been paying much attention, IMO.

I'm not proposing to make every class the same speed or reduce strafe speeds to snail-pace or anything like that. I'm mostly just curious about the thoughts of the community, whether regarding what I mentioned above or anything related and suggestions they have for addressing them (assuming they see/find any problems with what I've said or other things that get brought up). I do also know that a lot of what I've described relates to what gives MB2 a lot of its addictive flavor and I don't want to take away from what makes it entertaining at its core if it's avoidable. Will be interesting to see where things go with this in any case.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

I like how flinch works. I don't like how most of the weapons work, nor how the movement speeds work. Too many weapons are too easy to flinch with, and the high-speeds means fighting saber v gunning is less about timing, more about guessing where the opponent will be when your shot eventually hits him. It is just highly simple and evident that it is 50x easier to hit a soldier, than a hero, exclusively due to the strafe speed. It means gun vs gun has more luck than it should, as well as gun vs saber.

Flinch could be ok, if they wouldnt have made it so stupid as it is right know.
You get flinched almost everytime, skill is still not needed just luckspam.
They made red and purple almost useless vs gunner and to pay for them as second style is just too expensive, points are needed for important things.
Both heavy styles could me immune to flinch since they are "heavy" styles and slow, but why think about it most gunners are happy about there protection so they dont have to fear saberists.

Really flinch was just thrown in the game without thinking.
Someone was butthurt that newbies can kill him, because he cant bring distance between saberist and his lazy ass.
Thats the only reason why flinch exist. *facepalm*
This is going on since 1.4 since gunners got this, they whine about everything, demand nerfs everywhere and insult ppl who dont think so or demand nerfs on gunner classes.

The only problem I have with speed is soldiers being slow as balls compared to all the other classes.
They are slow as SBD's and wookies without their melee upgrades.

It takes me forever to get back into the fight seeing as I can't get somebody to play as an ET for the life of me.

Soldiers have 3 lives and flinch, you should be slow as hell.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Soldiers have 3 lives and flinch, you should be slow as hell.

So what your saying is that soldier should be a walking simulator?
Die instantly and walk all the way back to the battlefield to die instantly agian?

If I wanted to play Arma, i'd would play Arma.

MB2 has hardcore acradey game mechanics, taking forever to get back to the battle sucks the fun out of it especially when you can't get your fucking team to play ET or play soldier when you're the ET. I don't understand how CC2 was overpowered when people barely play the class. Something can't be overpowered if nobody ever uses it. Every tryhard would play soldier if it was overpowered. And don't look at me like you don't try hard.
I try hard and im complete shit at the game, especially when I get 100 ping on NA servers.

If you needed to nerf soldiers take armor away. Armor is practically useless against instant kill weapons, IE 75% against the enemy team.

I figured there be more people playing gunners seeing as its viable now compared to a year and a half ago. But even after a year later, its still jedi and sith spam and people refusing to coordinate, that team kill you whenever the opponent gets close to you.

Did anyone read this when they first started playing?
My First Day in MBII
I did, now imagine being the guy who worked hard making this guide just to get ignored by the very people hes trying to help. The people who are actively team killing me, and bum rushing and creating a wall around the enemy making it nearly impossible to shoot because you will end up doing team damage.

If you want people to play these classes designed to help new players and allow them to learn the game by themselves by constantly dying. Making them slow as hell isn't a good way to do it. It's just going to make them look weak and feel annoying to play as. Then they will switch to a class that is fast as hell in comparison. Which is either Hero/bounty or jedi/sith. I would prefer bounty/hero spam. But nope, Chuck testa.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

So what your saying is that soldier should be a walking simulator?
Die instantly and walk all the way back to the battlefield to die instantly agian?

If I wanted to play Arma, i'd would play Arma.

MB2 has hardcore acradey game mechanics, taking forever to get back to the battle sucks the fun out of it especially when you can't get your fucking team to play ET or play soldier when you're the ET. I don't understand how CC2 was overpowered when people barely play the class. Something can't be overpowered if nobody ever uses it. Every tryhard would play soldier if it was overpowered. And don't look at me like you don't try hard.
I try hard and im complete shit at the game, especially when I get 100 ping on NA servers.

If you needed to nerf soldiers take armor away. Armor is practically useless against instant kill weapons, IE 75% against the enemy team.

I figured there be more people playing gunners seeing as its viable now compared to a year and a half ago. But even after a year later, its still jedi and sith spam and people refusing to coordinate, that team kill you whenever the opponent gets close to you.

I only see this from a saberist point of view.
Every gunner with more than one live, is annoying, because if you kill him you really dont benefit from it and they have an equal chance to kill me like a one live class with flinch, in the end its just pointless too fight them for me and i end up just push/pull/fry them, so my team can kill them.
Since 1.4 i only concentrate mostly on enemy saberists, everything else get fried or pushed/pulled.
If they get faster it would be completly shit, but if they would change them to a one live class it would be ok, until then im totally against faster gunners, doesnt matter which class and suggest to make saberists faster or gunners slower.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I only see this from a saberist point of view.

Every gunner with more than one live, is annoying, because if you kill him you really dont benefit from it and they have an equal chance to kill me like a one live class with flinch, in the end its just pointless too fight them for me and i end up just push/pull/fry them, so my team can kill them.
Since 1.4 i only concentrate mostly on enemy saberists, everything else get fried or pushed/pulled.

If they get faster it would be completly shit, but if they would change them to a one live class it would be ok, until then im totally against faster gunners, doesnt matter which class and suggest to make saberists faster or gunners slower.

You want all gunner run speeds to be universally nerfed?
Because of the flinch mechanic?
A mechanic that only works if you take damage, designed to stop you from holding down m1 when charging at people?

Giving us a fighting chance, because the only viable way to kill jedi/sith was either numbers and headshots. Way back when.
A hitbox that is so hard to hit when somebody is spamming their F key and running at you with super sonic speeds, and doing strafing, zigzags, running on walls, flips n shit. Fuck I wouldn't be surprised if you could fly with all travel mechanics you get. You already can jump across the map, flying wouldn't be that big of a change.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

You want all gunner run speeds to be universally nerfed?
Because of the flinch mechanic?
A mechanic that only works if you take damage, designed to stop you from holding down m1 when charging at people?

What do gunners?
They just need to hold M1, too.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

What do gunners?
They just need to hold M1, too.

You have never played other classes before have you?
You just gave me the biggest impression of a guide ignorer.
God knows how many bad habits you picked up to have an opinion like that.

Do you have any idea how much of a pain in the ass it is to adjust to aiming in a game where projectile speed is slow and when player models teleport when your ping is slightly above average?
Where as I can just press the F key and instant kill everyone regardless of ping by playing your class?

This is a quake engine game, the engine was designed for instant kill guns, rockets, power ups, jump pads, gernades. Here like me educate you.

Does this look easy to you?
Everyone runs fast as shit in this game and the only way to kill anyone was anticipating where your opponent would go.
This is what base gameplay used to look like before Raven software re-purposed it.

Having a sword and running at people, and knowing you will instant kill if you land a hit sure as hell is a lot easier than fighting somebody you suspect is apart of the matrix.

The only weapons that instant kill on the gunners side, are the sniper weapons. And those fucking things are a nightmare to use in a setting where your teammates are more of a threat than the enemy because they will block your shots every single time. Run speed is the basis of every class, its how we survive. Nerfing the speed of all gunner classes is completely asinine when jedi/sith have a fuck ton of advantages and build options to use against gunners.

Fucking sith are incorporating lighting into their builds now, turning off your weapon when they get close making you an easy kill. Thank god it doesn't knock you down like it used too. But the moment you start running, there goes your fucking health.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Really if i play gunner from time to time, i aim like a drunken rabbit, but saberist are easy to kill.
I kill mostly saberists and miss almost every enemy gunner i see.
You just have to wait until they are close and then spam M1, flinchprotection and a small portion luck does the rest.
Since flinch was invented, just teamup with another gunner if need and you dont have to fear saberists anymore.
And if he tries to get away just hold M1.
With F you mean push i guess?
Well thats just the reaction to flinch.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Really if i play gunner from time to time, i aim like a drunken rabbit, but saberist are easy to kill.
I kill mostly saberists and miss almost every enemy gunner i see.
You just have to wait until they are close and then spam M1, flinchprotection and a small portion luck does the rest.
Since flinch was invented, just teamup with another gunner if need and you dont have to fear saberists anymore.
And if he tries to get away just hold M1.
With F you mean push i guess?
Well thats just the reaction to flinch.

I just realized I wasted my time arguing with you. I should of figured that out by your typing structure.
Excuse me, im going to work now.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

I just realized I wasted my time arguing with you. I should of figured that out by your typing structure.
Excuse me, im going to work now.

Yes the same feeling i have with some user here myself but at least i try arguing, farewell.
Btw as sith i use lightning myself, because it stops gunners to flinch.
Its boring, it annoys you? Well flinch does the same to us saberists, so deal with it, like we have to deal with flinch.
You think i use forcepowers because its fun, its not, i want to use my saber but flinch prevents it in most cases.
This is the way most disscusions saberist vs gunner ends.
Nobody is ready for a compromise, because everyone wants his class to be superior.
I doubt this game gets ever balanced.
Before things like movement gets discussed, the game needs to be fixed. *sigh*

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

As someone who uses Sabers and Guns, it exclusively depends on the class the gunner is using when determining how easily a saberist can kill a gunner. Before damage-reduction on Jedi/Sith was a thing, Gunners could actually fight Jedi/Sith quite easily without the introduction of flinch. Blob served a purpose back then, SBD slap served a purpose. With the introduction of flinch, people found it necessary to give Jedi/Sith damage reduction, due to the insane classes like Clone/SBD/Deka/Hero/BH dominating Jedi/Sith with the flinch change. Once you give Jedi/Sith damage reduction, then classes like Soldier/Commander/ET/Mando/Arc suddenly suffer, because they can no longer contend with a Jedi/Sith over their lives/sub-par kit.

The problem is simply the fact that the classes aren't balanced well around one another. Some gunner classes are way stronger than others, some force powers trivialize some classes, some classes trivialize others. The problem, is getting people to admit this shit. No one wants to admit that their favorite class is overpowered.

Basically, some classes just need to be reworked to be more uniform and balanced around each other. For example, T-21 is pretty OP against most classes... but it is literally the only chance Commander (a 2 life class) has against Clone (a 2 life class), because Clone is overpowered, you can't nerf T-21 (an overpowered weapon), without making Commander completely useless in a combat role.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

To me the current movement speeds and behaviour is what makes the game amazing. It gives room for creativity since there are no movement restrictions similar to that of modern shooters where people have massive amounts of inertia and such to ruin your reaction times.

Nothing beats dodging jedi attacks up close with good movement.

MB2 is a fast-paced game and adding inertia to movement or slowing down strafing would take away from this.

It would also effectively kill attacking on most maps.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

It gives room for creativity

wat

So you think two gunners holding mouse 1, and spamming A D A D A D A D A D A D D D D A D A A A D A D A D A in a hallway... is creative?


Modern Shooters are more about reaction times than MB2 is, by the by. Take Call of Dooty 4 HC, if you turn a corner, you see someone, you have a split second to aim and fire, or you die. There is no dodging, there is no strafe spam, there is no 'leading' or 'guessing' shots, there are no walking force-push binds, there are no gimmicks like secondary frag or blob... Nope, just whomever aims best and shoots first wins.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

wat

So you think two gunners holding mouse 1, and spamming A D A D A D A D A D A D D D D A D A A A D A D A D A in a hallway... is creative?

Far more creative than two gunners forced to stay behind cover since evading bullets is no longer an option.

Not to mention having the ability to jump left and right quickly being very crucial to close range combat vs Jedi/Sith.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Far more creative than two gunners forced to stay behind cover since evading bullets is no longer an option.

Not to mention having the ability to jump left and right quickly being very crucial to close range combat vs Jedi/Sith.

Cover in modern shooters is only as useful as it is in MB2. There isn't cover every inch to the objective, in any game. Typically, you make your own, or you just aim better than the enemy. Almost all kills you get in modern shooters are out in the open. MB2 is just the only game in the universe where you can try to 'bullet hell' an opponent, and there isn't as much skill in that as you think, as it is mostly just luck.

Also, if the Jedi/Sith themselves have the same level of mobility, then you won't need to jump left/right so quickly to dodge them.

 

[Rosh+]

Nothing beats dodging jedi attacks up close with good movement.

MB2 is a fast-paced game and adding inertia to movement or slowing down strafing would take away from this.

I can agree with this primarily because I play a lot of force whore. This game would be a nightmare as force whore if the movement was anywhere near 'realistic'.

MB2 is not a 'modern shooter'. It's a fan-made project with little to no budget made by people who use their own personal time to make a unique game that is undervalued by it's fans, and criticized by people with little to no experience with the actual work that goes into the game, and while I feel that the fans DO have a right to criticize, and that they definitely CAN brainstorm about things that need to be changed, or introduced, they DO NOT have the right to expect this game to have the gameplay, or the quality of a big budget, Triple A 'modern' shooter game. It is simply unreasonable, and unrealistic.

Modern Shooters are more about reaction times than MB2 is, by the by. Take Call of Dooty 4 HC, if you turn a corner, you see someone, you have a split second to aim and fire, or you die.

Not entirely true...

When I used to play a lot of Modern Warfare, and MW2, a lot of the higher tier gameplay boiled down to shotguns, and sprinting, stopping, then going into prone once you saw an enemy. Most people would see somebody, go into prone while shooting at the same time, and completely turn themselves into a small target in order to not get hit. Hell, a lot of people would dive into gun fights Max Payne style in the later games in the series.

Point is, it wasn't always standing still and shooting, that type of play was mostly restricted to lower-mid level players. A lot of it was also not getting shot at all. It was a lot like Counter Strike in that way. IF you knew the maps well enough, you could listen for footsteps, and flank, in essence ensuring that you'd never even be shot at if you were careful enough.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I can agree with this primarily because I play a lot of force whore. This game would be a nightmare as force whore if the movement was anywhere near 'realistic'.

MB2 is not a 'modern shooter'. It's a fan-made project with little to no budget made by people who use their own personal time to make a unique game that is undervalued by it's fans, and criticized by people with little to no experience with the actual work that goes into the game, and while I feel that the fans DO have a right to criticize, and that they definitely CAN brainstorm about things that need to be changed, or introduced, they DO NOT have the right to expect this game to have the gameplay, or the quality of a big budget, Triple A 'modern' shooter game. It is simply unreasonable, and unrealistic.

I don't believe anyone is arguing about this becoming a triple A budget game. I'm arguing that there needs to be balance changes, for basically every class, some small, some large. Also, what you fail to realize, is that there are ways to reduce movement speed and keep force whores viable.

 

[Rosh+]

I don't believe anyone is arguing about this becoming a triple A budget game. I'm arguing that there needs to be balance changes, for basically every class, some small, some large. Also, what you fail to realize, is that there are ways to reduce movement speed and keep force whores viable.

Yes, I suppose you are right about me failing to realize that when I was typing that post up. Nobody ever brought up Forcewhore, though(till now) and how these changes would affect it. This has purely been about saber Jedi, and gunners. I would love to hear your opinion about how to optimize Forcewhore for the changes to movement you are theorizing, though.

Also, realize I never said that anybody was arguing about this becoming triple A, but I can see in the expectations some people are voicing that a lot of them are treating this as if it was, or was going to become a triple A title. A lot of people who do want things changed, or complain about stuff seem to think that the devs owe them something. No, I am not talking about anybody specifically, but the community as parts. Some people want stuff changed because they want to see the game grow, or they want certain gimmicks removed that could be deemed unbalanced, but most want the game changed because they get killed by someone using something, and now they're mad about it. There is even a great portion of the community who don't want anything to be changed at all, and want everything the stay the same, which of course, will cause the game to stagnate, go into decline, and die.

Still, I respect all the ideas I hear, and I hope I can hear more, as long as they aren't sufficiently stupid enough for me to not take them seriously.

(I.E) - dildo sabers.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

MB2 is just the only game in the universe where you can try to 'bullet hell' an opponent, and there isn't as much skill in that as you think, as it is mostly just luck.

There is way more skill than you think there is. It isn't just in aiming, it is prediction, knowing the movement of your class vs the class youre firing against. etc.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

There is way more skill than you think there is. It isn't just in aiming, it is prediction, knowing the movement of your class vs the class youre firing against. etc.

Prediction is another form of luck. That is why prediction-based players never win tournaments.

 

[Lessen]

dodging sprays of shots and perfectly predicting where the enemy will go are both things that are beyond human capability to perform perfectly, and i llllllike that element. personally.

i won't get super in depth about that this time. i just like it, okay!? yes.