The next steps forward

Hey everyone. I know that a lot of were expecting changes for the current state of saber v gunner and/or saber v saber in this patch but I assure you, things are still in motion to get those settled and pushed out!

As a preface, MB2 has had a theme of changing things for the sake of changing or trying to address problems in really weird/roundabout ways and not actually solving the issues. This leads/has led to problems not actually being solved and/or creating new ones (although there's been a lot of cool stuff along the way). Moving forward, there's going to be more focus on adjusting things to being able to have more static baselines (e.g. there shouldn't be any major overhauls to saber v gunner interactions once all of this stuff is sorted out) or prepping for future changes, whether completely new features or more intricate adjustments to current ones.

We want to make the game feel more dynamic, volatile, exciting, and of course, fun. That is the main focus of these changes for the next patch as well as the long term goal for MB2 overall.

That said, some time in the following days, we are going to set up an open beta for testing the adjustments to saber v gunner. This will likely involve reconfiguring one of the official servers with the new changes (no messing with files for anyone who wants to try them out!), having a channel on the official discord dedicated to discussions, as well as scheduled times for when devs/beta testers will be around to observe/gather feedback firsthand during gameplay.

Things that will be different and that will be closely looked at include (but aren't limited to) the following:

• No more flinch
• No more FP regen debuff
• Increased knockback against saberists
• Jedi/Sith only having damage reduction in specific circumstances (not universally)
• Changes to caps on FP drains (especially for blocking)
• Tweaks to Pistol/Bowcaster charged damage
• Ammo changes for the Projectile Rifle
• Adjustments to projectile speeds

There's more but those are the main points of interest for gameplay changes. Additionally, what's listed in the final changelog that will be included with the open beta is not the extent of what's being looked at. This is just what's been fully agreed on, vetted, and implemented.

I'm also hoping that more transparency on what's being worked on as well as why will help improve community relations in the long run and make it easier for both those working on the mod as well as those waiting for new toys/features/etc. On that note, for those still wondering about the saber system changes, we're still working on figuring out the details since those aren't purely server-side adjustments. Stay tuned for more info!

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Flinch doesn't actually stop any of the previous tactics that smarter saberists use to kill gunners (primarily good timing of crouch swinging or utilizing some acrobatics with swings; even if flinch activation range was increased, it would only somewhat minimize these). The issue with flinch is that it's inconsistent, doesn't apply fairly across guns (see SBD/clone rifle as obvious examples), and doesn't apply fairly across saber styles (rip Red; meanwhile Blue/Cyan/Duals laugh at how little effect flinch has on them).

I crouchswing all the time with blue vs gunners and all that happens is that they get 1 or 2 free headshot the moment I start my swing and I insta-die.

 

[Lessen]

I crouchswing all the time with blue vs gunners and all that happens is that they get 1 or 2 free headshot the moment I start my swing and I insta-die.

Sidestep very suddenly then crouch+swing? Tho if your sidestep succeeds then I'm not sure what crouching does for you really. I suppose against very high-up guns like A280 it does make you harder to hit. Probably doesn't work as well against E-11/CR/T-21.

I suppose crouching will be more important next patch with headshots being more important, smart gunners will go for headshots but smart saberists will duck when that happens.

 

[QuoVadis?]

I crouchswing all the time with blue vs gunners and all that happens is that they get 1 or 2 free headshot the moment I start my swing and I insta-die.

lol any time i attempt to dodge headshots by crouching in any FPS, they decide to shoot my body as i'm crouching, ensuring they land a headshot

 

[Cultist]

This list of changes looks really good! Flinch was a unique and interesting mechanic in concept, but it was also unintuitive and frustrating for both saberists and gunners. I will be happy to see more reliable factors deciding saber vs. gunner fights again

I am a little worried about changing projectile speeds because I feel like they might be subtly contributing to the balance/flow of the game more than we realise.

 

[President Bossk]

Glad you all got your crap together and realized that change for the sake of change is bad. This looks like a great new beginning. Thanks to all the devs for this. Best MB2 news I have ever heard. When can we expect a release?

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I hope nobody is concerned about this turning into a back-and-forth juggle between different designs. Our aim is to lock in the design with this patch assuming the overall gameplay experience feels fun.

Once we are satisfied with our design, any balance issues that arise will be addressed through as small changes as possible. Preferably on a per match-up basis.

One of my key goals is to lock down existing gameplay mechanics designwise so we won't be stuck in these reiteration loops for the next 15 years. Obviously no lockdown will be absolute and can be revisited if absolutely necessary, but I'll act as a kind of gatekeeper and run us through a sanity-check when that happens.

When can we expect a release?

Uncertain yet. Essentially when we're happy with the result. We're attempting to have a steady release pace so hopefully sooner rather than later

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Just 2 small ideas I had when playing:

• make wall grabbing available to jump 2 at least ( why does only jump 3 would allow you to hold onto walls?)
• Make dekas have some sort of fall damage (I know this might be harder to implement due to them being considered a vehicule but this would prevent silly escapes in maps like deathstar).

Edit:

• increase somewhat the effect of force powers on jetpacking mandos

 

[Agent Jaden]

Just 2 small ideas I had when playing:

• make wall grabbing available to jump 2 at least ( why does only jump 3 would allow you to hold onto walls?)
• Make dekas have some sort of fall damage (I know this might be harder to implement due to them being considered a vehicule but this would prevent silly escapes in maps like deathstar).

Edit:

• increase somewhat the effect of force powers on jetpacking mandos

Well, even better than that for Dekas, what if a Deka has their shield off, they can be "pushed" into ball mode? Probably as a trigger or activator for the action?

But yeah, maybe fall damage would be okay. But I do kinda enjoy the rolling off the catwalk of the side corridor just to get to the lower corridor.

 

[Chocorope]

Honestly I strongly feel this is one should remain. It's one of these.. bs thing which also play a part into the magic of this game.

As much it can be annoying, it also somehow always make me smile when one do it, It's like the ultimate cowardly move lol. And its funny because it exactly and perfectly make 0 sense in the same time, but I accept it, its part of Deka to run away.

I've got used to picture Droidekas like that playful dog that does not wanna come inside after poop time... And the more you try to catch it, the more it run away.

So yes, Destroyers are the dogs of MB2! Pesky.. Annoying dogs with fat fking blasters, and the pleasure reside into trying to catch it, or failing, then trying again.

Its full of fun & love really.

Keep it.

♥

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

I hope nobody is concerned about this turning into a back-and-forth juggle between different designs. Our aim is to lock in the design with this patch assuming the overall gameplay experience feels fun.

Once we are satisfied with our design, any balance issues that arise will be addressed through as small changes as possible. Preferably on a per match-up basis.

One of my key goals is to lock down existing gameplay mechanics designwise so we won't be stuck in these reiteration loops for the next 15 years. Obviously no lockdown will be absolute and can be revisited if absolutely necessary, but I'll act as a kind of gatekeeper and run us through a sanity-check when that happens.


Uncertain yet. Essentially when we're happy with the result. We're attempting to have a steady release pace so hopefully sooner rather than later

I'll be honest I am concerned a little bit. Having debates with you and other devs about flinch, raising the EXACT same points Tempest made as to why it should be removed, my opinions on flinch were dismissed as invalid. Then literally weeks later I read it is getting removed because of the same reasons why I think it should've been removed! Come on! Make your bloody minds up! lol

Anyway you guys made the right decision and I cannot wait for this to happen.

With regards to the constant changes, mainly to Jedi, I think it's because it's related to developers changing, coming and going. People have different ideas on how to balance this game and frankly it shows. Don't get me wrong I do like changes it mixes things up and makes it interesting, but as I've said above it just seems like you guys can't make your minds up on a solution.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Having debates with you and other devs about flinch, raising the EXACT same points Tempest made as to why it should be removed, my opinions on flinch were dismissed as invalid. Then literally weeks later I read it is getting removed because of the same reasons why I think it should've been removed! Come on! Make your bloody minds up! lol

Depends on who you talk to, and what their role within the team is. For example, I dislike flinch and think it should be removed. But I don't have control over gameplay even if I voice my opinion over it. So the people that do, have to take my opinions into consideration. Same with other developers. There are some that like flinch.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

Depends on who you talk to, and what their role within the team is. For example, I dislike flinch and think it should be removed. But I don't have control over gameplay even if I voice my opinion over it. So the people that do, have to take my opinions into consideration. Same with other developers. There are some that like flinch.

Oh yeah I know that. It just seems as if the developers struggle to collectively agree on things when it comes to balancing. Different people, different ideas.

I really appreciate developers that reach out to the community for ideas on certain issues. Ben is one of those developers, but this decision on removing flinch just confused me a bit after the previous conversations I had with him about it. I think flinch was generally not popular, even with gunners and that's probably why it's being removed - community pressure.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Oh yeah I know that. It just seems as if the developers struggle to collectively agree on things when it comes to balancing. Different people, different ideas.

The last 3 patches have been majorly map updates for a reason. Its a struggle. We are working on some things to maybe make this a little easier in the future to put some more facts and information behind our discussions. Balancing a game isn't a simple task by any means, especially when we have a QA process that isn't the fastest, and just simply has never had enough people (Hence this open beta which we want to do more of once the launcher supports updates to client stuff as well).

Edit: This open beta also gives us a chance to try changes developers are on the fence for and disagree on.

 

[noel]

Just 2 small ideas I had when playing:

• make wall grabbing available to jump 2 at least ( why does only jump 3 would allow you to hold onto walls?)

Please don't do this, being able to jump off of walls is extremely useful for sabering (almost all of my builds use fj2 because you can quickly jump off walls and perform interesting swings with this mechanic) - other saberists like aizen and shady use this type of build too to play more acrobatic styles

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Please don't do this, being able to jump off of walls is extremely useful for sabering (almost all of my builds use fj2 because you can quickly jump off walls and perform interesting swings with this mechanic) - other saberists like aizen and shady use this type of build too to play more acrobatic styles

Jump 3 should have that ability too, maybe rebinding grad to use or something else would give more versatility to jump3 if such a thing is possible.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Oh yeah I know that. It just seems as if the developers struggle to collectively agree on things when it comes to balancing. Different people, different ideas.

This is a given. There are a lot of ideas on what is good and what is not. This is the part where I am supposed to come in nowadays and keep it cohesive. I hope we can become a bit more stable on that regard by the end of the year as we feature lock stuff.

I really appreciate developers that reach out to the community for ideas on certain issues. Ben is one of those developers, but this decision on removing flinch just confused me a bit after the previous conversations I had with him about it. I think flinch was generally not popular, even with gunners and that's probably why it's being removed - community pressure.

My personal opinion is that Flinch is great as it allows us to keep damages lower for Jedi and as a result making fights last longer, giving more chances for both parties to showcase their skill. Even if I sport the title of "Gameplay Lead" all that means is I'm the guy who has to try and look past personal opinions (including my own) when it comes design in order to keep this game fun for everyone.

General opinion from most others seems to be that they want Jedi to be less restricted at the expense of being a bit more risky to play as is evident from most threads discussing Flinch. This new design direction that we'll be testing reflects on that sentiment.

 

[President Bossk]

Hopefully extra knockback and removal of damage reduction will be enough to balance out removing flinch.

 

[FRANK LAMPART]

Even if I sport the title of "Gameplay Lead" all that means is I'm the guy who has to try and look past personal opinions (including my own) when it comes design in order to keep this game fun for everyone.

That is a sign of a top dev wheey!

General opinion from most others seems to be that they want Jedi to be less restricted at the expense of being a bit more risky to play as is evident from most threads discussing Flinch. This new design direction that we'll be testing reflects on that sentiment.

Well Jedi are usually on the frontline so they need to be unrestricted and perhaps play risky, but also they need to survive as well. I guess it all depends on your playstyle. My main issue with flinch is that it's unreliable and makes encounters somewhat random. Also, as it's applied to every gunner the same, it doesn't stack well with certain classes that already have anti-Jedi abilities.

 

[marksisms]

I'm not sure this is even the right place to post this but merp,
So here's the thing. I understand the whole hype about new maps, and updating old ones and stuff, and I honestly don't mean to shit on anyone's hard work or anything, but let's be real. There are changes to certain maps that people just don't like. And while I'm not gonna go ahead and ask you all to just bring the old one's back, what I cannot understand is why can't we have both? New vs old DOTF are two completely different maps at this point, why can't you guys keep both maps available for RTV and let people choose where they want to play. Same goes for Lunar (even though changes made there were much smaller gameplay wise). #MakeDotfGreatAgain. Let's bring 'em back. For the children.

Just quoting myself cuz I'm pretty sure no one saw this. pls don't ban me for spam senpai

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Just quoting myself cuz I'm pretty sure no one saw this.

Do you like new DOTF?

I've written why several times, but there is the very long version.

Basically if I am competing with play time for the map, I run into the same problem with beta tests. I don't have enough people, and enough play time to get enough opinion and non-biased feelings about the map. Everyone is always going to prefer something they are familiar with over something new, even if that something new could be better. Especially if that something is ingrained in their head for 10 years. I am trying to work on the map as much as possible to improve it before I leave the team again. I cannot do that if everyone just goes back to playing the same old same old again. And like I said there, DOTF is not coming back for minimum 4 months after major changes are done to this version of DOTF. Which happened with this patch and reset the timer again. And there will be at least one more patch with major changes to the side routes yet again in the future. You can live with it, and help contribute to development for a bit, and give me feedback rather than just saying give old map pls thx. If people just tell me to bring the old one back, and don't tell me why they dislike the new one (like you just did), I gain nothing, you gain nothing, and movie battles gains nothing.

Move forward not backward. It is certainly possible that the old map comes back just not at this time. My goal is to make it so its not needed for it to come back. I personally would say about 75% of DOTFv2 is better than the old DOTF. Now its just about making the last 25% better. Might even be closer to say 15% now as I brought it probably 10% closer with the changes from this patch, but sadly haven't had a ton of time to play with it on live servers myself.